Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #18

Status
Not open for further replies.
  • #761
Without someone first questioning LE's actions during those cases, before any evidence of negligence was produced, the Commissions never would have happened.

Simply because one gets across two lanes of highway without getting hit, does not automatically mean playing there is safe. There is no evidence to the contrary.... you haven't been hit... yet speculation leads you to think about it, and maybe look into the possibilities.

Won't it be awful if two years from now, we find out there was an accomplice that LE had on their radar, but mishandled the information. That won't happen unless someone takes a critical look at LE, and asks why they did this or that... much like what happens here.

Evidence of negligence doesn't just drive into you... something has to appear off, then you find it.

200 officers were involved in the investigation. I highly doubt that all 200 missed something, or that they collectively dismissed evidence of other suspects. This was a solid investigation with a quick arrest. There is nothing to criticize in the investigation, and there's no reason whatsoever to suggest that police screwed up the investigation.
 
  • #762
  • #763
When we look at all of those cases mentioned in the post quoted, it is disturbing and heartbreaking how many mistakes and misjudgements were made by LE. They are only human like everyone else. While this case may portray to some that LE have not dropped a ball and may appear to reflect excellent police work, we are not sitting with the same vantage point right now, as we are in those other cases, and unfortunately we must wait until this case winds itself through the courts and learn details before we will be able to pass meaningful judgement on their work in this case. MOO

With Bernardo, police had his DNA long before he was arrested, but they were backlogged with DNA testing for the Scarborough rapist. That was a mistake. Police then made a deal with Homolka with the condition that she tell the truth. She lied, but police upheld their end of the deal anyway. With Russell Williams, police endowed him with some sort of special status when the investigation led to his doorstep. Williams pointed the finger at a neighbour and police investigated that neighbour. It was when Williams went through a check stop and his tires matched those in a field next to a crime scene that one of the officers decided that, regardless of Williams' special status, they would look into it. With Robert Pickton, police knew that he had handcuffed and assaulted a woman at his farm, but because she was a prostitute, they did nothing. Because it was prostitutes that were vanishing, police did nothing. They made huge errors. Police also made huge errors with Clifford Olsen. Because the abductions and murders were in different jurisdictions, and because police were immature and territorial about their cases, Olsen murdered eleven children before an arrest. Police then went on to make a cash for victims deal where Olsen's wife received $10,000 for each murdered child.

With Garland, police did not drop the ball. They pursued several avenues of investigation, zeroed in on video surveillance footage, discovered the old Ford truck in pristine condition, located the owner, and made an arrest as soon as possible for, what I would consider, a minor infraction: false identity documents. That was four days after the murders. They held him as long as possible ... something like eight days ... to buy themselves time to complete the DNA testing. As soon as the testing was completed, they re-arrested him and charged him with the murders. 15 days from murders to arrest reflects excellent police work.
 
  • #764
The thing is, although there may have been 200 officers involved in this investigation, only a handful perhaps are in a position to call the shots. For all that we know, there may have been many of those 200 officers who missed something, and there may have been many that thought differently about any given tip or lead, and were told not to bother following it. They do as they are instructed by their superiors. There may not be anything to criticize YET, because we know practically zero. When this case gets to court and we start hearing and reading the information we are now missing, we may or may not feel differently. "Hindsight is 20/20". I will feel very sad if the trio are discovered 2 years from now located in the area which was supposed to have been searched surrounding the L home, as you posted above, but were missed because LE was so intent on searching the Airdrie property. Who made that decision to call off that search, I'm sure it wasn't 200 officers. It is possible that some of those 200 officers believed it may still have been a good idea.

200 officers were involved in the investigation. I highly doubt that all 200 missed something, or that they collectively dismissed evidence of other suspects. This was a solid investigation with a quick arrest. There is nothing to criticize in the investigation, and there's no reason whatsoever to suggest that police screwed up the investigation.
 
  • #765
Wow, remind me not to state my opinion on a forum where you will be attacked and be told your opinion is wrong, and that is that, period. Last time I checked, we live in a country where I'm allowed to be a free thinker.

I feel the police do their best *most* times with what they have, they don't mean to make mistakes on purpose. It's a flawed system, any large infrastructure dealing with lots people are. Just like doctors and healthcare are flawed, politicians and government are flawed, etc.

That is my opinion and I'm allowed to have that, thanks.

Lalalacasbah, when people disagree with a comment, they too are expressing their opinion. That's not the same as attacking, IMO. That's the joy of Internet forums, we put our comments out there, and others either agree or disagree.

IMHO


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • #766
Wow, remind me not to state my opinion on a forum where you will be attacked and be told your opinion is wrong, and that is that, period. Last time I checked, we live in a country where I'm allowed to be a free thinker.

I feel the police do their best *most* times with what they have, they don't mean to make mistakes on purpose. It's a flawed system, any large infrastructure dealing with lots people are. Just like doctors and healthcare are flawed, politicians and government are flawed, etc.

That is my opinion and I'm allowed to have that, thanks.

You just keep rocking on girl! I appreciate your balance and that you demonstrate self control and fairness to everyone with respect to the victims and fellow sleuthers. I myself, rely on your respectful approach because at times I am ready to unleash my cocky and smart butt comments and clearly that is just a waste of time and equally offensive.
 
  • #767
200 officers were involved in the investigation. I highly doubt that all 200 missed something, or that they collectively dismissed evidence of other suspects. This was a solid investigation with a quick arrest. There is nothing to criticize in the investigation, and there's no reason whatsoever to suggest that police screwed up the investigation.

... and anyone could have said the same thing about every case at the early stages, like the Pickton case et al. Thank goodness for those without blinders that noticed something fishy, and dug deeper.

How many officers were assigned to the Pickton case? It doesn't really matter... does it?

No one has stated as a fact LE botched the investigation. That is putting words into people's mouths again, then arguing the opposite for reasons unknown.

There is nothing wrong with looking at LE using a critical eye. In fact, it is necessary, in order to maintain a free, and civilized society. Absolute trust in those with absolute power is absolutely foolish.
 
  • #768
Yes, as mentioned in my earlier post, I totally get it that the police believe the trio to be dead, but because Chief Hanson said 'they are dead' matter of factly, does not make it a fact that they are dead.

The are dead. It is not an opinion, it is a fact based on evidence at the crime scene.
 
  • #769
When we look at all of those cases mentioned in the post quoted, it is disturbing and heartbreaking how many mistakes and misjudgements were made by LE. They are only human like everyone else. While this case may portray to some that LE have not dropped a ball and may appear to reflect excellent police work, we are not sitting with the same vantage point right now, as we are in those other cases, and unfortunately we must wait until this case winds itself through the courts and learn details before we will be able to pass meaningful judgement on their work in this case. MOO

The big difference with this case is that 200 officers were involved. Usually, it's impossible to allocate that kind of manpower to one investigation. I have complete confidence that the police have arrested the correct suspect and that there will be a conviction.
 
  • #770
... and anyone could have said the same thing about every case at the early stages, like the Pickton case et al. Thank goodness for those without blinders that noticed something fishy, and dug deeper.

How many officers were assigned to the Pickton case? It doesn't really matter... does it?

No one has stated as a fact LE botched the investigation. That is putting words into people's mouths again, then arguing the opposite for reasons unknown.

There is nothing wrong with looking at LE using a critical eye. In fact, it is necessary, in order to maintain a free, and civilized society. Absolute trust in those with absolute power is absolutely foolish.

Some people will view the work of professionals such as doctors, lawyers, teachers, dentists, veterinarians, policemen, journalists, firemen, politicians, and radio broadcasters with a sceptical, critical eye, and some won't. I don't. I give the benefit of the doubt until there is reason to withdraw that confidence in professionals. There is absolutely no reason to doubt the quality of work completed by the Calgary Police Service. Something that happened in BC or Ontario has absolutely no bearing on the police service in Calgary.

Perhaps I've missed something that investigators did during the investigation that exposes them as bumbling fools. If so, I would like learn more.
 
  • #771
The big difference with this case is that 200 officers were involved. Usually, it's impossible to allocate that kind of manpower to one investigation. I have complete confidence that the police have arrested the correct suspect and that there will be a conviction.

... and I'm sure some people stated the same about Travis Vader, and David Milgaard a few months after their arrests.
 
  • #772
Some people will view the work of professionals such as doctors, lawyers, teachers, dentists, veterinarians, policemen, journalists, firemen, politicians, and radio broadcasters with a sceptical, critical eye, and some won't. I don't. I give the benefit of the doubt until there is reason to withdraw that confidence in professionals. There is absolutely no reason to doubt the quality of work completed by the Calgary Police Service. Something that happened in BC or Ontario has absolutely no bearing on the police service in Calgary.

Perhaps I've missed something that investigators did during the investigation that exposes them as bumbling fools. If so, I would like learn more.

How could you "learn more" if everyone took that same position, and questioned nothing? How is evidence discovered unless you are skeptical, and question? How do you catch a doctor false billing unless you question the bills and dig deeper?

Again... Thank God for the skeptics. Criminals aren't limited by their profession.
 
  • #773
The big difference with this case is that 200 officers were involved. Usually, it's impossible to allocate that kind of manpower to one investigation. I have complete confidence that the police have arrested the correct suspect and that there will be a conviction.

... and for those who wonder why there is so much concern about tainted jury pools, and fair trials...
 
  • #774
The are dead. It is not an opinion, it is a fact based on evidence at the crime scene.

A fact which just might be refuted at trial. It's one interpretation of the evidence. I don't recall a cross examination at the press conference.
 
  • #775
... and I'm sure some people stated the same about Travis Vader, and David Milgaard a few months after their arrests.

David Milgaard's case was not in Calgary, not in Alberta, and something like 20-30 years ago. Charges against Vader, also not in Calgary, for the murder of the McCanns were stayed, not dropped. If more evidence comes to light, the charges could be pursued.

"A man once charged in the slaying of two Alberta seniors was found not guilty Wednesday on unrelated charges and was to be released from custody for the first time in more than four years. ... The charges he was initially held on, which included passing off a forged employment letter in court, were later dropped. The murder charges were also stayed earlier this year."

http://globalnews.ca/news/1605722/t...ilty-on-9-charges-unrelated-to-mccann-deaths/

Of all the people charged with a criminal offence since the introduction of DNA evidence, what percentage were wrongly convicted?
 
  • #776
A fact which just might be refuted at trial. It's one interpretation of the evidence. I don't recall a cross examination at the press conference.

I rather doubt that. Evidence of people being dead is pretty hard to refute.
 
  • #777
How could you "learn more" if everyone took that same position, and questioned nothing? How is evidence discovered unless you are skeptical, and question? How do you catch a doctor false billing unless you question the bills and dig deeper?

Again... Thank God for the skeptics. Criminals aren't limited by their profession.

What exactly should we question? What did police do during the investigation that looks wrong?
 
  • #778
David Milgaard's case was not in Calgary, not in Alberta, and something like 20-30 years ago. Charges against Vader, also not in Calgary, for the murder of the McCanns were stayed, not dropped. If more evidence comes to light, the charges could be pursued.

"A man once charged in the slaying of two Alberta seniors was found not guilty Wednesday on unrelated charges and was to be released from custody for the first time in more than four years. ... The charges he was initially held on, which included passing off a forged employment letter in court, were later dropped. The murder charges were also stayed earlier this year."

http://globalnews.ca/news/1605722/t...ilty-on-9-charges-unrelated-to-mccann-deaths/

Of all the people charged with a criminal offence since the introduction of DNA evidence, what percentage were wrongly convicted?

Thanks for the link and bolding.

Many people, in Edmonton, thought LE did a good job, were confident that they had the right person, and were certain of a conviction. Whoops.

I'm not certain of the percentage of those wrongly convicted since the introduction of DNA, but even if it was 0.5762%, it's not relevant to the discussion about absolute trust, and pre-judging guilt and innocence based on professions. DNA percentages also have nothing to do with critical thinking and skepticism.

Now... if you want to discuss the relation between percentages and deflection...
 
  • #779
Of all the people charged with a criminal offence since the introduction of DNA evidence, what percentage were wrongly convicted?

This case is old, but new in the way that charges were laid because of DNA technology. He was found guilty but has been granted a new trial. A very long dragged out process. Of course it was not in Alberta but I don't think geography and reputation and records of a police force by department guarantees that they are immune to mistakes.

http://www.castanet.net/news/Kelowna/105968/Snelson-to-get-new-trial-date

http://www.kelowna.com/2009/10/26/b...essed-perplexed-about-cusworth-murder-charge/
 
  • #780
What exactly should we question? What did police do during the investigation that looks wrong?

Everything previously questioned, and more. Why were they in Mexico? Why aren't they actively searching? Are they digging deep enough into the business dealings? Is the perp walk a good idea? Are any of those involved connected to anyone in LE or anyone with influence? Is there enough oversight and checks and balances? Are the investigators acting beyond reproach? (Look at the current Surrey 6 issues)

Like in life... if you pretend negative only happens elsewhere... then you miss your chance to prevent it, detect it, or stop it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
105
Guests online
1,178
Total visitors
1,283

Forum statistics

Threads
632,431
Messages
18,626,409
Members
243,149
Latest member
Pgc123
Back
Top