Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #19

[Tinkerbel1]

As I used to know it, there is a big difference between a Certificate of Death and a Death Certificate. An attending physician is usually the person who completes and signs the Certificate of Death, which states the deceased person's name, age, gender, etc., and details leading up to and the time and cause of actual death. These are a lengthy single sheet (without a duplicate copy) and accompany the body to the funeral home. These sheets are numbered/coded. Photocopies are made for the records of whomever completed it. A Death Certificate is issued from the Funeral Home and there can be multiple identical numbered copies (for a cost) in order to settle the deceased person's affairs. Every bank or office seems to request an original in the settling of an Estate. If you do not have multiple copies of a Death Certificate, a Notary Public will make a notarized copy an original one. Not sure how easy or difficult it would be to fake either one.

Thank you for the clarification between the 2 documents, I believe you are right now that I think back to my father's affairs when he passed. The fake one? It would be pretty difficult to get a fake passport and birth certificate, but someone knows how to do it I'm sure. Either way, it appears that no statement has come from the ME on the Certificate of Death. I'm wondering if that is a public document or not?

 

[Tinkerbel1]

I wouldn't put Rick Hanson in the same league as Redford. He has an unblemished record and I have no reason to doubt his professionalism. As for what information I have obtained privately, all I can say is that only goes to support his findings.

If you look at this from the family's perspective, I for one would be hard to convince to publicly declare my young child dead when no body has been provided for burial. Since they made that arduous decision having inside information from said authorities, I have to believe that they didn't make that decision lightly, but did so after much deliberation. The fact that they have chosen to accept that their loved ones are in fact deceased, removes ANY doubt from little 'ol me.

Did Alison Redford start out with a blemished record? And, as a family member mentioned, she won't believe they are dead until she sees the bodies...so at least one family member isn't convinced either.

 

[otto]

The L's were not 'dipping into his family finances for their retirement fund' if the retirees gave their daughter an early inheritance. DG does not have Power of Attorney over his parents, so where they want to distribute their money is up to them, and I'm sure they would have made it clear to DG should he have kicked up a fuss. Still does not present a good enough motive for murder. It was simply none of his business, I doubt, as I said earlier, he could care less what his sister got and where she put it. However, obviously you feel that this would have created great enough animosity, anger and resentment to murder, and that is definitely a possibility, but I highly doubt it, there's other ways he could have foiled that plan, like burn the condo down, etc. He is not stupid as has been stated by different authorities several times, and he was in to petty crime, not big violent stuff and still...for such a small amount of money...it still doesn't make any sense. As a matter of fact, if this was the reason, than he would definitely have a NCR chance because then he definitely was not in his right mind. Good argument for the defense. JMO

Do you think for a moment that the parents of Douglas Garland would at any time decide to give several thousand dollars to a couple that have three bankruptcies between them? Would they support a decision by their daughter to give her money to a couple with a very questionable history of using every trick in the book to avoid paying money owed? I really doubt it would sit well with anyone in the Garland family if money intended for their daughter and her children ended up in the pockets of her in-laws.

 

[news.talk]

Did Alison Redford start out with a blemished record? And, as a family member mentioned, she won't believe they are dead until she sees the bodies...so at least one family member isn't convinced either.

As a matter of fact, Redford has a history of questionable and unprofessional dealings. Hanson has been honorably serving the citizens of our city since 1975.

http://www.calgary.ca/cps/Pages/Chief-and-Executive.aspx

As for the family member that said that? Please provide the link.

 

[Power of Two]

Thank you for the clarification between the 2 documents, I believe you are right now that I think back to my father's affairs when he passed. The fake one? It would be pretty difficult to get a fake passport and birth certificate, but someone knows how to do it I'm sure. Either way, it appears that no statement has come from the ME on the Certificate of Death. I'm wondering if that is a public document or not?

The Certificate of Death is one of the final pieces of documentation in a person's medical record, thereby making it a breach of confidentiality to disclose or share it without written permission from the person in question...which isn't about to happen. I managed a very busy medical practice for many years and one of my duties was filling out the details and demographics on Certificates of Death and handing them over to the Docs to endorse and sign. I would then make a copy for the personal medical file and hand the original to the funeral home delivery guy. A faxed copy was a no-no. They are unable to 'process' a body without the original Certificate of Death. That is the law. Of interest, it is not a requirement that a physician view the body after death in order to fill out and file the CofD. Although, that is just with your run-of-the-mill deaths. If there was any criminal or suspicious circumstance or involvement, there would obviously be a Coroner involved who would sign off on the CofD.

 

[news.talk]

[/B]The Certificate of Death is one of the final pieces of documentation in a person's medical record, thereby making it a breach of confidentiality to disclose or share it without written permission from the person in question...which isn't about to happen. I managed a very busy medical practice for many years and one of my duties was filling out the details and demographics on a Certificate of Death and handing it over to the Docs to endorse and sign. I then made a copy for the file and handed the original to the funeral home delivery guy. They are unable to 'process' a body without the Certificate of Death. That is the law. Of interest, it is not a requirement that a physician view the body after death in order to fill out and file the CofD. Although, that is just with your run-of-the-mill deaths. If there was any criminal or suspicious circumstance or involvement, there would obviously be a Coroner involved who would sign off on the CofD.

Awesome assesment.

Here is the legal terminology for Alberta -

Registration of Death:

This is usually filled out at the funeral home when the funeral arrangements are being made. It is a permanent legal record of the death. It is the responsibility of the spouse, next of kin or person who has full knowledge of the facts surrounding the person who has passed away to complete a Registration of Death Form.


Certificate of Death:

Vital Statistics uses the information on the Registration of Death Form to create an official Certificate of Death. The executor/personal representative or other eligible person should order a Certificate of Death. Many organizations will require this document before decisions can be made on behalf of the deceased. Until you obtain the Certificate of Death, the funeral director will issue a Statement of Death that you can use.

Medical Certificate of Death:

This will have been completed by an attending physician or medical examiner. The Office of the Chief Medical Examiner will sometimes become involved in the case of an unexplained or sudden death. You can order a photocopy of the Medical Certificate of Death from Vital Statistics if you wish.

http://www.programs.alberta.ca/Living/5959.aspx?N=770+5251

 

[LoisLane]

As a matter of fact, Redford has a history of questionable and unprofessional dealings. Hanson has been honorably serving the citizens of our city since 1975.

http://www.calgary.ca/cps/Pages/Chief-and-Executive.aspx

As for the family member that said that? Please provide the link.

I have not confirmed if these are the same articles and statements. TP and JL are quoted.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/0...-obrien-amber-alert-and-missing-grandparents/

In an email to The Canadian Press, Teena Prevost, a sister-in-law of Kathryn Liknes, said her family is praying police are wrong.

“Until the police can show us the bodies of our loved ones we will not believe they are deceased,” she wrote. “Praying we will find them alive.”

http://www.am980.ca/2014/07/15/murder-charges-calgary-missing-persons/

Jeff Liknes, son of Alvin and Kathryn Liknes, said the police decision to declare the case a triple murder is incredibly hard to accept, and until the bodies are found, the family can’t stop clinging to that faintest of hope, that somehow the officers are wrong.

“There is that sliver of hope, but then, I’m sure they must trust their evidence,” he said.

http://metronews.ca/news/calgary/1097044/nathan-obriens-mom-remains-hopeful-her-son-will-come-home/

Jen told Metro that police haven’t shared with her the evidence they say gives them confidence that none of the trio, first reported missing June 29, is alive.

“They won’t tell us, but we do know that it’s not time for us to lose hope,” Jen said. “I can’t and I won’t, until we know for sure.”

Earlier in the day, police formally charged Douglas Garland in the presumed killings of the five-year-old and his grandparents.
Police Chief Rick Hanson said Monday that the laying of charges removed any shred of hope for the victims’ families.

But that development in the ongoing investigation didn’t seem to faze Jeff.

“I know the cops don’t seem to think so . . . but I know that my mom was really strong, my parents were really strong, Nathan was so strong,” he said. “There was so much energy and so much life in him. If anyone’s going to make it through this, it’s going be them.”

The O’Briens gathered at a park near their Cougar Ridge home for the balloon display; thousands of others around Calgary and in other cities across the country had pledged to do the same in their own neighbourhoods.

“I’m so hopeful that my little boy’s going to come home,” Jen said. “I hope and pray that anybody that was involved actually speaks up and has it in their hearts because Nathan wasn’t involved in this.”

 

[news.talk]

I have not confirmed if these are the same articles and statements. TP and JL are quoted.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/0...-obrien-amber-alert-and-missing-grandparents/

http://www.am980.ca/2014/07/15/murder-charges-calgary-missing-persons/

Thanks for providing those links. The reason I asked for them was because I suspected that what was being referred to, was shortly after the announcement of the death findings.

The first article ran on July 17th and the second one the next day. The funerals were not held until September 4th and 27th. I suspect in that time, LE and other professionals went over the findings with the family members. If it was my loved one, I would have made them go over it and over it and over it, and not until every single doubt in my mind had been erased, would I hold a memorial. It took them over a month, which may have been due to acceptance or perhaps even a delay in the legal certificate being issued. Whatever the reason, they chose to publicly declare their acceptance by running obituaries and holding memorials. I highly doubt they made that decision lightly and did so after exhaustive inquiries with those involved. It would have taken me MUCH longer so that alone tells me that they received definitive proof of death.

My point is, those remarks made by family members were on the heels of the release of the statement declaring deaths. They most likely didn't have all the information, and more so if they were not immediate family.

 

[Power of Two]

Awesome assesment.

Here is the legal terminology for Alberta -

Registration of Death:

This is usually filled out at the funeral home when the funeral arrangements are being made. It is a permanent legal record of the death. It is the responsibility of the spouse, next of kin or person who has full knowledge of the facts surrounding the person who has passed away to complete a Registration of Death Form.


Certificate of Death:

Vital Statistics uses the information on the Registration of Death Form to create an official Certificate of Death. The executor/personal representative or other eligible person should order a Certificate of Death. Many organizations will require this document before decisions can be made on behalf of the deceased. Until you obtain the Certificate of Death, the funeral director will issue a Statement of Death that you can use.

Medical Certificate of Death:

This will have been completed by an attending physician or medical examiner. The Office of the Chief Medical Examiner will sometimes become involved in the case of an unexplained or sudden death. You can order a photocopy of the Medical Certificate of Death from Vital Statistics if you wish.

http://www.programs.alberta.ca/Living/5959.aspx?N=770+5251

Interesting.... My above posts explaining the difference in Certificate of Death and Death Certificate are completely opposite from what is stated on the the alberta.ca website you shared. Of course, I am stating the differences in certificates for British Columbia. Here in BC a Death Certificate looks very much like a paper birth certificate or marriage certificate....one with a sadder twist. They measure approx. 6"x 8" and have a seal. A Certificate of Death is the size of a long legal document. 8" x "13"? I have never heard of anyone wanting a duplicate of the CofD, but suppose it to be possible. None of these details really figure any consequence in our sleuthing... just that Tinkerbel wondered about forgery and this seemed to be one small way for me to contribute something. :twocents:

 

[news.talk]

Interesting.... My above posts explaining the difference in Certificate of Death and Death Certificate are completely opposite from what is stated on the the alberta.ca website you shared. Of course, I am stating the differences in certificates for British Columbia. Here in BC a Death Certificate looks very much like a paper birth certificate or marriage certificate....one with a sadder twist. They measure approx. 6"x 8" and have a seal. A Certificate of Death is the size of a long legal document. 8" x "13"? I have never heard of anyone wanting a duplicate of the CofD, but suppose it to be possible. None of these details really figure any consequence in our sleuthing... just that Tinkerbel wondered about forgery and this seemed to be one small way for me to contribute something. :twocents:

Re: Forgery

Created by the Vital Statistics Council for Canada (VSCC) in conjunction with forensic document experts from the RCMP, Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS), Canadian Passport Office, Canada Border Services Agency and the Canadian Bank Note Company Ltd., new Canadian birth and death certificates will be one of the most secure documents in the world. Introducing an array of cutting edge security features, including several that will not be revealed to the public, the new certificate is specifically designed to minimize identity theft, forgeries and loss.

As of July 30, 2010 eight provinces have adopted the new certificate:*Alberta,*British Columbia,Manitoba,*New Brunswick,*Newfoundland and Labrador,*Nova Scotia,*Prince Edward Island*andSaskatchewan.

What’s New?

The stock for the new documents are high security polymer (plastic). The new certificates are 13 cm by 18 cm in size (5”X7”). It is designed to discourage people from carrying it in their wallet or purse.

The certificates have:

Two window features:

– one contains a colour shifting property (gold/purple); the other contains three “floating” maple leaves

Two watermark/shadow features – maple leaves and Canada geese containing the word “CANADA” repeated. Tactile printing similar to that found on Canadian currency. Colour shifting printing, “CANADA” in three waves below the clear window containing the maple leaves (purple/green) Contains the provincial/territorial coat of arms in colour with the jurisdiction’s seal and a signature.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

I HIGHLY doubt that the Medical Examiner and Chief of Police would base a finding of death on a mere fingernail. LOL. SMH.



They CANNOT speak to what those 'facts' are, without compromising the rights of the accused and in the interest of justice. As a society, we pay these people to make these determinations for us, and Rick Hanson has served exceptionally and honorably in his service.

Oh Lord, look what I've created... for those that think all that was to argue they were alive... no. That was arguing for the right to question, and to not have words put in anyone's mouths.

If we had to decide one way or the other, all the "evidence" and "facts" the public has points to the victims being dead. The movie script scenarios of someone surviving are probably wishful thinking, and are highly unlikely.

DG has a right to his day in court, which may include a defence against the proof of death itself. We don't know. From evidence handling, a la OJ, to DNA analysis, to planted and staged... if the evidence is overwhelming, then they'll go in a different direction.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Thanks for providing those links. The reason I asked for them was because I suspected that what was being referred to, was shortly after the announcement of the death findings.

The first article ran on July 17th and the second one the next day. The funerals were not held until September 4th and 27th. I suspect in that time, LE and other professionals went over the findings with the family members. If it was my loved one, I would have made them go over it and over it and over it, and not until every single doubt in my mind had been erased, would I hold a memorial. It took them over a month, which may have been due to acceptance or perhaps even a delay in the legal certificate being issued. Whatever the reason, they chose to publicly declare their acceptance by running obituaries and holding memorials. I highly doubt they made that decision lightly and did so after exhaustive inquiries with those involved. It would have taken me MUCH longer so that alone tells me that they received definitive proof of death.

My point is, those remarks made by family members were on the heels of the release of the statement declaring deaths. They most likely didn't have all the information, and more so if they were not immediate family.

Denial is all part of the process. The rest of what was here previously basically restated the post above without me realizing it.

 

[Slebby]

Shaking My Head = SMH

 

[kaley]

Has anyone ever forgotten their facebook password and had to take steps to retrieve it? I am wondering if there are security questions to get back into your profile. I am also wondering how detailed they are. I thought about trying to hack into my own facebook but I am not sure what it would do to my profile if I did.

 

[LoisLane]

Has anyone ever forgotten their facebook password and had to take steps to retrieve it? I am wondering if there are security questions to get back into your profile. I am also wondering how detailed they are. I thought about trying to hack into my own facebook but I am not sure what it would do to my profile if I did.

My niece was in some trouble last year and the parents were needing access to her FB. They new she always used the same password but she had created a few profiles and had multiple email addresses. Under her FB profile she had a section where you can list your email address and phone number. I was able to use her email address from one of her profiles to login to another, but I had her password.

When you lose your password I think you can retrieve it by having it emailed to you. I would think the family would have been able to access email accts. My mom has used the same passwords for years and for FB etc. she uses her kids nicknames. If I had access to her email I could easily go onto FB and claim to have lost password. FB would have a security question if that was requested and I bet I could answer it. FB may just ask that you reset it or just supply the password.

Also, I helped my father set up a secure FB profile and know his password. I don't think it is uncommon for kids to have access to their parents info. Also, I have known my mom's pin number to her bank card since I was a teenager. She has never changed it.

https://www.facebook.com/help/132243923516844

 

[Hez]

Shaking My Head = SMH

SMH is right. I see we're up to the part in the movie where fake death certificates are being used to keep an 'innocent' man in jail. :facepalm:

 

[Power of Two]

I don't think it is uncommon for kids to have access to their parents info. Also, I have known my mom's pin number to her bank card since I was a teenager. She has never changed it.

Ditto!

 

[Krystine]

War, death, violence, aggression, murder,... all so wrong, but sadly ingrained over the centuries.
A beautiful day in Ottawa and a profoundly beautiful ceremony on Parliament Hill today.

 

[stan laurel]

SMH is right. I see we're up to the part in the movie where fake death certificates are being used to keep an 'innocent' man in jail. :facepalm:

SMH is such a nice acronym,,, I was looking for an emoticon that is of the little circle character yawning while rolling it's eyes and folding their arms like a fed up teenager would do.

 

[stan laurel]

Found this snippet today on wrongful convictions in Canada and how they might happen, bbm;

The Working Group’s recommendations are aimed primarily at the most serious of offences, particularly homicides. These are the cases where the risk of long-term incarceration, and hence the consequences of a wrongful conviction, are the greatest. However, we recognize that some of our suggestions are applicable to other offences as well, when feasible.

Our report focuses on the issues that have been identified time and time again, both in Canada and elsewhere, as the key factors that contribute to wrongful convictions:
•tunnel vision
•mistaken eyewitness identification and testimony
•false confessions
•in-custody informers
•DNA evidence
•forensic evidence and expert testimony
•education

Our report, however, should not be viewed as a beginning or a starting point, but as another stop along a well-established road. As will be obvious, our recommendations build on the extensive work already being done in several Canadian jurisdictions, especially those that have had a commission of inquiry examine one of their prosecutions, which has resulted in a wrongful conviction. We have reproduced many of the excellent policies that have resulted from this work.

The risk of error always exists in any human endeavor. In the justice system, the consequences of a wrongful conviction can be tragic. The Working Group hopes its recommendations, if implemented, will go a long way towards reducing the risk of future wrongful convictions and ensuring that the innocent are acquitted and the guilty convicted.

http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/cj-jp/ccr-rc/pmj-pej/p1.html