Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #19

[news.talk]

I thought that pointed, but cheeky reminder of the big picture, and how reputations are barely dusted, let alone dirtied and smeared here just by someone asking a question, or discussing a theory, was a winner for sure.

There was debate, counterpoint, as little finesse with the epee, and more than enough opposite to attract.

Keep working it Sir... Your efforts are not going unnoticed, including your willingness to sully fellow posters. A coup' lance if you will. We will see if that earns some corps-a-corps.

 

[otto]

I wonder what happened to the Chief in the Vader case.

Vader's murder charges are stayed, not dismissed. The crown has decided to postpone the trial.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/travis-vader-charges-stayed-in-mccann-murder-case-1.2578680

 

[otto]

Posters need to check their facts before making statements as fact. It IS allowed in other provinces, but must be approved. Your post was NOT stated as an opinion, but as a fact, and I asked you to back it up. I am still waiting for that. No matter what the law is in Alberta vs the rest of Canada or the world, you stated as fact that 'most murderers' choose trial by judge alone, and I am waiting for you to back that statement up with proof.

It is a fact that murderers can elect to be tried by Judge and Jury, or by Judge alone in Alberta. There are no conditions attached to either choice. I have provided links to support this fact. I was aware of this fact, in spite of a link stating the opposite being generally true in Canada.

I know that many murderers elect to be tried by Judge alone from attending murder trials and discussing murder trials with senior crown prosecutors ... take it or leave it. It's an opinion based on experience. If people prefer to believe that murderers believe it is to their advantage to be tried by Judge and Jury, and that Judge and Jury is more common for murder trials, that's okay with me. I suspect that Douglas Garland will elect to be tried by Judge alone.

 

[otto]

Now I remember why I always hated math. Lol. Just kidding [emoji24]

Schrödinger's Cat is in the realm of physics, but it's a fun philosophy debate. It always reminded me of another philosophy question: if a tree falls in the forest when no one is listening, does it make a sound? If the cat dies in a box when no one can see into the box, is the cat still alive?

 

[otto]

I'm trying to come up with reasons why it would be an advantage for a murderer to be tried by Judge alone. Anyone have any thoughts on why murderers wouldn't normally be allowed to be tried by Judge alone in all other provinces?

Perhaps, at the time of sentencing, Judge alone is strictly by the book; impartial throughout, nothing but the facts. A jury will interpret the same information, but might be less able to separate emotion from fact? Uglier evidence might come out? Some charges might be dropped? The crime is the murder of a child who just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. A jury will not take kindly to that if the evidence is clear. If the evidence is clear, the accused murderer might prefer to take his chances with the Judge's ruling?

 

[deugirtni]

It truly ceases to amaze me how much private information people are willing to give up to FB for free. Very scary.

Don't know if this link will work (you may have to log in), but if you go to KL's FB page and type in "Apps Kathryn Liknes uses" in the FB search field, it will bring up the apps. I don't know if there are others that aren't publicly viewable:

https://www.facebook.com/search/622636864/apps-used

That's where you'll see the "Boostedpagelike" app that she used and I mentioned before.

 

[otto]

Off Topic ... sometimes there seems to be tension. From my position, I don't want to, nor mean to, offend anyone or give the impression that I am "scolding". I have a position, and perhaps debate that position unwaveringly, but I wouldn't be able to come to such a firm position without ... what was it again (thx LoisLane) ...

"Difference of opinion leads to enquiry, and enquiry to truth; and that, I am sure, is the ultimate and sincere object of us both."
~ Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815

 

[news.talk]

Off Topic ... sometimes there seems to be tension. From my position, I don't want to, nor mean to, offend anyone or give the impression that I am "scolding". I have a position, and perhaps debate that position unwaveringly, but I wouldn't be able to come to such a firm position without ... what was it again (thx LoisLane) ...

"Difference of opinion leads to enquiry, and enquiry to truth; and that, I am sure, is the ultimate and sincere object of us both."
~ Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815

I find that it is often difficult to ascertain whether someone is being obtuse or just vehemently defending their position. Forums are void of inflection, intent and all the subtle nuances present in auditory speech.

It is important to seperate the poster from the post. I may take a position on a subject matter that doesn't necessarily reflect my personal feelings.

I would NEVER want to be part of any group that agreed with me all the time. I wouldn't learn anything or be willing to search and discover as much.

In the end, we are all here to uncover the facts and events surrounding cases born from tragedy. In itself, that breeds emotion.

 

[otto]

Has anyone been reading about the Mexico 43 that were allegedly burned for 15 hours until they turned to dust. The fifteen hours caught my eye, because if it only takes 15 hours to burn remains in a fire pit, then perhaps he slaughtered them at the Parkhill house, and burned them in the pit near the fence - where the police tent was set up. The neighbour reported that he was burning for hours through the night.

Was the DNA proof in the ashes from the firepit? If that were the case, would police share that information with Nathan's parents? It seems reasonable that Nathan's family would be entitled to know how it was confirmed that he is dead.

 

[otto]

I find that it is often difficult to ascertain whether someone is being obtuse or just vehemently defending their position. Forums are void of inflection, intent and all the subtle nuances present in auditory speech.

It is important to seperate the poster from the post. I may take a position on a subject matter that doesn't necessarily reflect my personal feelings.

I would NEVER want to be part of any group that agreed with me all the time. I wouldn't learn anything or be willing to search and discover as much.

In the end, we are all here to uncover the facts and events surrounding cases born from tragedy. In itself, that breeds emotion.

There's a saying ... I wouldn't want to be part of any club that would have me as a member.

 

[news.talk]

Has anyone been reading about the Mexico 43 that were allegedly burned for 15 hours until they turned to dust. The fifteen hours caught my eye, because if it only takes 15 hours to burn remains in a fire pit, then perhaps he slaughtered them at the Parkhill house, and burned them in the pit near the fence - where the police tent was set up. Was the DNA proof in the ashes from the firepit?

We have to consoder the fact that they abruptly called off the search, despite public statements to the contrary. *Something* was discovered at the acreage and in my experience, they only set up the ominous tent when they are shielding crucial evidence.

 

[news.talk]

There's a saying ... I wouldn't want to be part of any club that would have me as a member.

I couldn't agree more. Especially when it comes to me as the member, LOL!

Just like exercising our body - In order to build muscle we need resistance. In order to learn and find answers, we need disagreement.

 

[otto]

We have to consoder the fact that they abruptly called off the search, despite public statements to the contrary. *Something* was discovered at the acreage and in my experience, they only set up the ominous tent when they are shielding crucial evidence.

I believe reports that the 43 were turned to ash in a 15 hour fire and the ashes put near a river ... something like that. They were students at a Teacher's College. Point being, if it only takes 15 hours to reduce a human body to ash, then it's possible that the evidence is in the firepit. The bodies were not vapourized with chemicals, and they were not left in a secluded field ... they were chopped up and burned. That would provide absolute, irrefutable DNA evidence that Douglas Garland murdered two grandparents and five year old Nathan O'Brien.

I thought that the search was called off because people from the general public wanted to enter private land and search the property. Private rural landowners would not like that. That would be one reason that the search of private rural properties was called off. Police have called off searches in the past on the basis that they did not want to risk that a crime scene is trampled. Search teams will resume a search, if the victims are not in the fire pit, when/if they have more evidence.

 

[otto]

Being in the fire pit makes a lot of sense. That's where the tent was. When asked, police said the tent was for sandwiches and water.

The neighbour mentioned the fire going on for many hours.
There was also quite a search near the irrigation system taps.

And ... we shouldn't forget the other case that police are investigating in connection with the same suspect ... a young woman with a child whose phone kept working long after she died.

 

[news.talk]

I believe reports that the 43 were turned to ash in a 15 hour fire and the ashes put near a river ... something like that. They were students at a Teacher's College. Point being, if it only takes 15 hours to reduce a human body to ash, then it's possible that the evidence is in the firepit. The bodies were not vapourized with chemicals, and they were not left in a secluded field ... they were chopped up and burned. That would provide absolute, irrefutable DNA evidence that Douglas Garland murdered two grandparents and five year old Nathan O'Brien.

I thought that the search was called off because people from the general public wanted to enter private land and search the property. Private rural landowners would not like that. That would be one reason that the search of private rural properties was called off. Police have called off searches in the past on the basis that they did not want to risk that a crime scene is trampled. Search teams will resume a search, if the victims are not in the fire pit, when/if they have more evidence.

A wood fire burns at a temperature of between 800 and 900 degrees centigrade. In a crematorium where a body is supposed to be fully reduced to ash, the temperatures are considerably higher, varying from 1100 to 1500 degrees centigrade. Even in this situation, the bones are not fully decomposed and the large fragments are then ground up in the final preparation.*

http://www.officer.com/article/10250502/burning-evidence

I wonder if the 'pond' was utilized to dispose of bones or other remains?

 

[otto]

A wood fire burns at a temperature of between 800 and 900 degrees centigrade. In a crematorium where a body is supposed to be fully reduced to ash, the temperatures are considerably higher, varying from 1100 to 1500 degrees centigrade. Even in this situation, the bones are not fully decomposed and the large fragments are then ground up in the final preparation.*

http://www.officer.com/article/10250502/burning-evidence

I wonder if the 'pond' was utilized to dispose of bones or other remains?

That's what was reported on the 43 missing Teacher College students too ... that there were teeth and bone fragments after 15 hours of burning ... 43 bodies, presumably in a pyre.

The SUV that was abandoned at the slough just North of the property was very interesting. Krystine took some really nice photos of the area (slough in the distance) in relation to the acreage.

 

[Power of Two]

A wood fire burns at a temperature of between 800 and 900 degrees centigrade. In a crematorium where a body is supposed to be fully reduced to ash, the temperatures are considerably higher, varying from 1100 to 1500 degrees centigrade. Even in this situation, the bones are not fully decomposed and the large fragments are then ground up in the final preparation.*

http://www.officer.com/article/10250502/burning-evidence

I wonder if the 'pond' was utilized to dispose of bones or other remains?

Could an accelerant have been used to increase the temperature of a possible pyre? And if so, what kind of fuel?

pyre
[pahyuh r]
noun
1.
a pile or heap of wood or other combustible material.
2.
such a pile for burning a dead body, especially as part of a funeral rite, as in India.

otto beat me to the word before I could get posted!

 

[news.talk]

That's what was reported on the 43 missing Teacher College students too ... that there were teeth and bone fragments after 15 hours.

The SUV that was abandoned at the slough just North of the property was very interesting. Krystine took some really nice photos of the area (slough in the distance) in relation to the acreage.

IIRC, they focused a lot of time and resources at the slough. They brought Sully, the CPS cadaver K-9 at the same time.

What is puzzling, is this was all prior to an arrest yet they never stated whether they found evidence of remains. It is completely possible that they were simply keeping all information very close to the vest.

 

[deugirtni]

You may recall that you have already posted this as your 'proof' that the trio are dead, and I have already responded to that quote by Chief Hanson. You will notice if you read the underlined and bolded-by-you portion, he stated that the evidence 'CONVINCED' them. I am sorry to repeatedly have to inform you that that does not make it a fact. I do not know how to help you understand this difference any more than I have already tried. It is a very large distinction and I am not sure why some are not getting that.

Originally Posted by deugirtni:
Please note that 'convinced' is not 'fact'. Thank you.

Originally Posted by otto
It's a fact. Police have stated that they have evidence that the family is dead.

“Until we had evidence that absolutely convinced all of us that the family was dead,” Chief Hanson said, “we were going to move the investigation based on the smallest hope.”

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/...n-obrien-case/

BBM

No problem. The Chief of Police said that until they had evidence that the victims were dead, they had hope. On July 14, they had evidence and there was no longer any hope that the victims were alive:

"Until we had evidence that absolutely convinced all of us that the family was dead,” Chief Hanson said, “we were going to move the investigation based on the smallest hope.”

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...us-secrecy-over-arrest-in-nathan-obrien-case/

 

[LoisLane]

Five Calgary lawyers tell the untold story of defending killers, rapists … and a joker
http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/c...ll+untold+story+defending/10382691/story.html

"In Canada, a judge can order a pre-trial psychiatric assessment, to see if someone is competent to stand trial. Under the Mental Health Act, a patient who’s considered a danger to herself or others can also be forced to submit to a psychiatric examination, for the sake of their own health. And the defence can request a psychiatric examination, before sentencing. But for a judge to order an unwilling accused to submit to an exam before sentencing is different."
http://www.calgaryherald.com/opinio...gles+grasp+killer+motives/10379068/story.html