Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #19

[Lalalacasbah]

Well in that case...:blushing:. I'm going a little off-topic, but here is a link to a case that finally broke wide open today. I remember when this family first went missing and the strange circumstances of their disappearance. I entertained the possibility that the dad and mom perhaps faked their own disappearance. Their remains were found in shallow graves in the desert in 2013 by an off-road motorcyclist. Now they have arrested a business associate of the dad's for all four murders. This guy managed to (allegedly) kill four people in their own home, transport their bodies to bury them in the desert, and evade capture for four years. It took that long to make an arrest because there were no bodies and at first police believed the family were involved in criminal activity and they had crossed the border into Mexico and never came back. Unfortunately, this lead to a long delay in justice for this family and resulted in another family member being accused of committing the crime. In reality, it was a business associate, who also happened to have a criminal record. Sounds familiar huh? I just hope it doesn't take as long for Nathan and his grandparents' remains to be found.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/07/arrest-mcstay-family_n_6122272.html?utm_hp_ref=crime

YES! I totally remember this family, this case is so haunting.

There was 'supposed' sightings of the family at the Mexican border, and theories they were in Mexico. IIRC, the mother was a bit eccentric and changed her name a couple times or something like that.

I am so happy an arrest has been made here, well, maybe not happy, but bittersweet. I'm glad justice will hopefully finally be served as this crime was utterly despicable. Such a beautiful family

I'll have to read up and refresh on the details of the McStays, but if they were killed by blunt force trauma (how horrific), did the suspect clean up the house also?

And your're right, the McStay story sounds freakishly familiar. Maybe DG got his idea from this story. Ugh.

 

[Power of Two]

I spend quite alot of time in Arizona each year and whenever I am hiking, exploring, or simply driving through the vast stretches of desert and high country I always wonder just how many bodies are out there. Macabre, I know. The geography and lay of the land is amazing from top to bottom in that State. I am convinced that it would not be all that difficult to dispose of any unsavory things that one would not want found. The carrion birds and wildlife would make short order of anything 'edible' (ugh) and the heat and winds and variable temperatures would also wreak havoc on any remains above ground. As for burying something, I think it would be nothing short of a miracle to find something which has been interred. The geography in Alberta has many parallels, IMO, to the desert.

 

[Power of Two]

Thanks Stan, I have been following Emma's story closely since I am also an Islander, so will watch this.

Her poor mom, and the circumstances surrounding her disappearance could go either way as to whether she left on her own free will or not.

Lala... I am also an Islander! This has been such a puzzling and heart-wrenching story. Her mother was so close to catching up with her... and then nothing! What anguish.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

<rsbm>

To name a few examples of discussion (too numerous to link, but paraphrased here):

Escaping to Mexico
They’re not in Disneyland but in Panama
Travelling with new passports and leaving their old ones at home
Saving up quantities of blood to dump to confuse the investigation
Taking NO because it is so ugly, nobody would believe it
Having a letter of permission to take NO across the border
Amber Alert was issued to deflect from them being in a witness protection program

https://www.google.ca/?gws_rd=ssl#q=liknes+faked+site:www.websleuths.com&start=30

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...June-2014-*ARREST*-17&p=11057059#post11057059

etc ..

If those aren't suggestions that relate to the family possibly being alive, I don't know how else to interpret them.

Well I'll put my hand up and say that there is a 'possibility' that they may be alive. And wouldn't that be wonderful! However twisted that may seem to some, it can't be ruled out because there are no bodies, and no sign of them anywhere. There is no link that is available of the ME declaring them dead and for what reason if I'm understanding the comments in the last thread correctly. There is apparently enough DNA evidence to declare them deceased but we have absolutely no clue what that is, or for that matter, how it got there. The big question I have is 'what the heck is going on here?' Something is not right with all of this.

Has anyone ever walked a labarynth? It circles and circles and circles all over the place until it eventually gets to the center...that's what this case reminds me of. It is organized and laid out with a specific path, but the twists and turns make it look like a maze...why is this homicide so much the same as a maze? A labyrinth has a specific path, a maze has many paths that lead to a lot of dead ends. Why are there so many arms and legs (no pun intended) to this homicide linking things together? The only thing I see so far is that DG has the least arms and legs in this case. He has a patent dispute, a past history of petty crime, a bit of a strange personality, a green truck that was seen in the vicinity, but very little in the way of twists and turns being uncovered. The longer this goes on, the more I can't help but feel that LE may be barking up the wrong tree, or there's another tree they should be barking up, and very well may be...we have no idea about that either. JMO

I'm not sure if this breaks the "no talking about trust funds" rule, but another question I have is who is the donator of the $ 1,000,000 donation...and why? I know they wished anonymity but I'm wondering where they came from and why such a large donation, split up on a regular basis? Does this person have any connection to any of the victims somehow? Just wondering.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Just came across this on the CBC feed about a missing persons case being highlighted on The Fifth Estate. Should be an interesting show.

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/episodes/2014-2015/finding-emma

Sorry 2nd reply to this, but here's the Find Emma Facebook page if anyone is interested:

https://www.facebook.com/HelpFindEmmaFillipoff

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Can I ask something? Why do we quote only 'partial' posts sometimes, it really does change the context of the point a poster is trying to make. I suppose that's what it's meant to do...perhaps twist what a fellow ws'er is saying...that's not really playing fair or nice. I'm of the opinion that if a poster is posting something, it's because they have something to say. They've used the words that they've used in order to get their point across. I personally would like to see less of this and a little more respect given to all posters in this instance. Makes for much more balanced conversation and less convolution of subject matter and putting words into others' mouths. JMO

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I spend quite alot of time in Arizona each year and whenever I am hiking, exploring, or simply driving through the vast stretches of desert and high country I always wonder just how many bodies are out there. Macabre, I know. The geography and lay of the land is amazing from top to bottom in that State. I am convinced that it would not be all that difficult to dispose of any unsavory things that one would not want found. The carrion birds and wildlife would make short order of anything 'edible' (ugh) and the heat and winds and variable temperatures would also wreak havoc on any remains above ground. As for burying something, I think it would be nothing short of a miracle to find something which has been interred. The geography in Alberta has many parallels, IMO, to the desert.

Not that much a macabre thought, I've thought that too when I've gone to desolate areas myself! Be it the dense, dark, lush woods by remote lakes of BC when camping in my youth, or when I drove through the Nevada desert (super creepy), so much unexplored land and nooks and crannies that probably hold secrets.

It's hard not to wonder who's been there before you, or how the surroundings be 'resting places'. It's interesting how some places one visits sometimes make you feel off and give a bad feeling and other places make you feel enlightened and good.

A miracle is a good way to describe finding a grave in the middle of nowhere, I hope we get a miracle with the Liknes/O'Brien case.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Lala... I am also an Islander! This has been such a puzzling and heart-wrenching story. Her mother was so close to catching up with her... and then nothing! What anguish.

That's so great! We live in such a beautiful place, I love the island and being an islander

I'm watching The Fifth Estate Emma story now, such a sad story, her daughter was almost in her grasp is right! I'd go crazy. I hope there's a happy ending to this story.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

They aren't the "same stretches of logic" at all. You have made a common logic mistake called denying the antecedent aka inverse error.

Simply using the term denying the antecedent doesn't make my examples anything of the sort. Labelling and improper use of terminology are dishonest debating tactics and are disrespectful to all reading this.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Speaking of ME's...has anyone seen this?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-pathologist-s-reports-probed-1.1013206

So, there actually is incompetence in places that are considered "authorities on subject matters of this magnitude". It's a scary thought.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Can I ask something? Why do we quote only 'partial' posts sometimes, it really does change the context of the point a poster is trying to make. I suppose that's what it's meant to do...perhaps twist what a fellow ws'er is saying...that's not really playing fair or nice. I'm of the opinion that if a poster is posting something, it's because they have something to say. They've used the words that they've used in order to get their point across. I personally would like to see less of this and a little more respect given to all posters in this instance. Makes for much more balanced conversation and less convolution of subject matter and putting words into others' mouths. JMO

I'm not sure Tink, I don't even know how to do those fancy quote tricks! Maybe they're responding to the snipped part as opposed to the whole post? Not sure...It can take something out of context though, good point.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Winter Pet, Oil & Gas ... reasonable sleuthing (victimology) based on the premise that the Chief of Police says the victims are deceased.

To sleuth on these folks being alive according to the examples I provided could only be logical if we rely on the belief that the Chief of Police was either wrong or lied. I haven't seen any sleuthing that has brought up one simple fact to support that possibility.

WS is not only victim friendly, it is also pro-LE unless there are strong indications otherwise.

IMO, everyone is being victim friendly and pro-LE here. Asking questions about things that come up about the victims and speculating on how they may tie-in isn't being disrespectful or unfriendly...its just tying the 'facts' in with possible scenarios. Pro-LE... I think that too is being respected. Perhaps their methods of investigation are being expanded on, just to cover all angles, but for the most part, everyone applauds LE's efforts and is grateful for their commitment and desire to solve this case. JMO

 

[Lalalacasbah]

It's seems the government website for Canada's Missing has crashed tonight, probably due to too much traffic after the airing of The Fifth Estate tonight. On the show they encouraged Canadians to view the site.

Here's the link if anyone's interested to check it out after the traffic volume subsides:

http://www.canadasmissing.ca/index-eng.htm

 

[Power of Two]

Like everyone else who is active and thoughtful on this forum, I have spent countless hours with the OB/L details consuming my brain. My 2 bits worth is I truly think that there is no way on God's green earth that either KL or AL is alive and well anywhere and harbouring the knowledge of what their family is going through. For all of their alleged/possible questionable and personal and financial situations I do not see them having the characteristics or motive to pull off any sort of disappearing act, with or without sweet Nathan. They may or may not be many things, but they are not twisted and evil. JMO.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Winter Pet, Oil & Gas ... reasonable sleuthing (victimology) based on the premise that the Chief of Police says the victims are deceased.

To sleuth on these folks being alive according to the examples I provided could only be logical if we rely on the belief that the Chief of Police was either wrong or lied. I haven't seen any sleuthing that has brought up one simple fact to support that possibility.

WS is not only victim friendly, it is also pro-LE unless there are strong indications otherwise.

Wrong does not equal incompetence. If you argue LE is always right then you convict DG. The only cognitive dissonance here is when you argue "statements from LE are indisputable fact" to support accusing people of slander, and then argue that "statements from LE are open for debate" to defend yourself from an accusation of slander. Both of LE's statements (the victims are deceased, there are no other suspects) are based solely on their interpretations of the evidence in their possession at the time of the statement.

It's bogus logic to support bashing partcular posters, and nothing more. I repeatedly asked for a quote of anyone accusing LE of being incompetent, or of anyone stating as fact that any of the victims are alive. None have come, because there are none, yet those same posters are accused of saying it time after time after time.

Those easily impressed by terminology or credentials should know better.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Like everyone else who is active and thoughtful on this forum, I have spent countless hours with the OB/L details consuming my brain. My 2 bits worth is I truly think that there is no way on God's green earth that either KL or AL is alive and well anywhere and harbouring the knowledge of what their family is going through. For all of their alleged/possible questionable and personal and financial situations I do not see them having the characteristics or motive to pull off any sort of disappearing act, with or without sweet Nathan. They may or may not be many things, but they are not twisted and evil. JMO.

It does seem a bit 'mastermind-ey' almost too elaborate a scheme for them to be alive (as much as I like to have the odd sense of hope).

Others who faked their death seemed to use bodies of water, not blood at a scene, so it does seem a little over the top. If they were to disappear on their own, I doubt they'd use blood, they would probably just disappear 'traveling' the world or go scuba diving in some foreign country and not come back.

The strange thing is, I think others who attempt or commit pseudocide, don't seem to mind hurting those family member and friends around them by doing this. I think one has to reach a mentally unbalanced state of desperateness to want to do this, it's sad that debt/money seems to be a factor in people who do this and their stress reaches a point where this is their only option out. I think most people who do must have to let family members in on their secret scheme to not cause so much pain.

One more terrible angle that's crossed my mind (please don't flame me, it just has to be considered) is maybe AL harmed KL at the house and had plans with DG to flee the country and DG got caught mid-plan. But according to MSM, AL and KL were happily married, so this doesn't jive.

Sadly, it's not that far-fetched at all for husbands to kill their wives and get away with it a live their new lives elsewhere, it happens a lot every day. I thought *maybe* LE would play along and declare AL deceased so to track him as he would have NO in his custody and they would have to tread water extremely carefully as for him not to harm NO if he felt threatened.

But again, I think that's me just thinking of over the top scenarios to hope (somehow) NO is alive, still hard to fathom that little guy had to be harmed Realistically, I know they're not out there, so sad.

 

[ABro]

Simply using the term denying the antecedent doesn't make my examples anything of the sort. Labelling and improper use of terminology are dishonest debating tactics and are disrespectful to all reading this.

Denying the antecedent

In conditional reasoning, arguing invalidly from a hypothetical proposition of the form If p then q that, because p is false, therefore q is false.

http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095711627

In this case I said:

If the Ls are alive (P) the police are incompetent(Q).

It does not follow from this that if the Ls are not alive (p is false) that therefore the police are not incompetent (q is false). Or, to remove the double negatives, that if the Ls are dead, the police must be competent.

This would be denying the antecedent.

The Ls can be (dead) not alive (Q is false) and the police can still be incompetent (P is not false).

So the first logical fallacy on your part was denying the antecedent by arguing that if P is false, Q must be false, or that if the Ls were dead, the police must be competent.

This fallacious conclusion that police must be competent (Q must be false) was then exacerbated by making another leap -- that since Q must be false, R (DG is guilty) must be true. I don't even know where that came from.

In any case, that's really all i can add while hoping that you will accept the credentials of the Oxford series of reference books.

I too am bowing out of this conversation until new information becomes available.

Or perhaps you could explain how the logic of, "If you entertain the thought one of the victims is alive, then you are publicly slandering LE as incompetent" is somehow so much more intellectually superior than, "If you entertain the possibility that LE was competent, then you are publicly slandering DG as guilty."

Both are the same stretches of logic based on a very limited perspective, and factoring in only selective pieces of information or "facts".

 

[stan laurel]

... maybe someone more tech savvy can figure it out.

This is the article in the news on Friday

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manit...m-homes-businesses-broadcast-online-1.2828391

and this is the website

http://insecam.com/

is there a chance of finding cctv footage from around that date and the Parkhill address,, likely exit points from the neighbourhood?

 

[stan laurel]

I hope you don't leave sillybilly, it's good to have balance on WS for different opinions, logical and outside the box. Hope you stay.

hahaha,, I think you may have just implied that Silly is a low level thinker.

I joke, I joke.

 

[stan laurel]

We do sometimes forget that the first people to suggest that the L's or at least one of them (plus NO) was alive was LE. Though they changed course on this (that we know of), LE was the original instigator of this train of thought.