Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #19

[news.talk]

I have never been arrested, I respect the police, and I have had no bad experiences with any police. I have an acquaintance who is an officer in Hamilton with whom I get together at functions rather regularly and I love talking with him. That still does not put me in a position of believing what police say is true without being fact, and without hearing of any evidence. The world just doesn't work like that for me. Please provide a link showing that the trio are dead is a proven fact, otherwise please refrain from stating beliefs as facts, as per WS TOS. Thank you.

Not really directing this your way, but since you mentioned TOS, I thought it may be a good time to bring forth what our moderator already stated on the subject.

Hi all, since Nathan, Katherine and Alvin sadly haven't been found that discussion is still open. Please be mindful they are officially considered deceased, but that doesn't mean you can't have an opposing view. Please, just be respectful of each other's opinions.

Thank you

 

[deugirtni]

There were 200 officers involved in this case according to news and according to your prior posts. Please provide a link wherein it states that the evidence found 'absolutely convinced everyone involved with the case that the family was dead'. I believe there were only a handful of people who made that call. Please provide proof that 'everyone involved' agreed with that determination.

And yes, the public, including ourselves, you and me, will learn the details at the trial. That is when statements may perhaps become factual, or not.

Police have evidence that absolutely convinced everyone involved with the case that the family was dead. The general public will learn the details at the time of trial. That's normal for Canadians. Canadians don't complain about the fact that investigative information is withheld until trial because it is normal to wait until trial.

 

[deugirtni]

Please provide a link to back up your statements quoted below. How do you know for a fact that police have pursued all avenues of investigation? How do you know that no differences of opinion existed amongst the 200 officers involved in this case? And how do you know police arrived at the truth until their statements are backed up with facts? If you are expressing an opinion, please note that in your post. If you are expressing facts, please provide links.

US politics and law have no place in Canada ... strange, but true. In this case, the police pursued all avenues of investigation, without difference of opinion, and they still arrived at the truth.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I'm just wondering if anyone here can say that it has in fact happened to them.

This never happened to me, but awhile back one of my FB friend's ranted on their status about how annoying FB was because it 'liked' a page she didn't like. It was a Walmart page or a similar type corporation and she's a super granola, organic/shop local type and anti-Walmart person and she was choked!

IIRC, she ranted something like 'if you see I liked Walmart in your news feed, don't believe it, I did not like their page or support them' it was something like that, I tried to go through her status history to find what she said, but couldn't find it. It might've happened last year, so awhile ago.

 

[news.talk]

Why do you ask for an alternate theory when I say that the victims have not been proven to be dead in response to posters who state it instead as fact? One has nothing to do with the other. I am not refuting that they are dead, they could very well be dead. All I am saying is that their deaths are simply not fact and should not be presented on here as such.

I see the point you are making and please keep in mind that I don't completely disagree...

I am asking that *if* (not directed at you, but rather those that actually believe the trio are alive), the victims are NOT deceased, where are they and why would they do this to their families?

Personally, *I* feel that it is in the interest of the victims and justice as a whole, that we should question the facts of the case and not until all evidence has been reviewed can a determination be properly made. However, in the interim, since the person that made the statement that the victims are dead, has never had his integrity and professional ethics or judgement discredited, we have no reason (unless one can be provided) to deem him untrustworthy. If we can't trust him, then maybe we should be asking for him to step down. After all, it is in his office and role that we expect the utmost honesty and integrity.

 

[deugirtni]

I wonder if any other vehicles at all were spotted on CCTV that night. I wonder if any actual evidence was found in DG's truck. I wonder if LE were able to 'prove' that DG's truck was in 'fact' the same truck spotted on CCTV that night. I wonder if any of the evidence taken from the Airdrie property proves anything. I wonder if any evidence of the trio were found at DG's property. I wonder if any evidence of DG was found at the L home. I wonder if the stains on the sidewalk were 'proven' to be blood. I wonder why there was no evidence of break-in at the L home. I wonder if police followed up on ALL of their tips once they honed in on DG as owning a green truck, being remotely related, and historically providing services for AL, which AL's son said 'did not end on a bad note'. I wonder why there are so many opposing statements in this case. I wonder why close family members were not even clear about the L's plans for Mexico and Edmonton, even though the 'move' was to take place imminently. I wonder so very many things. I cannot wait for trial when we might actually hear what evidence the police have.

As a side note, a very old case that I have been following and which I had been following way back when it initially happened.. took TWELVE YEARS for police to make their arrest even though the accused was considered a suspect the entire time.. finally comes to trial.. after 3 weeks of the prosecution presenting their 'evidence', the defence presented no defence whatsoever. Blank, nothing. Why? Based on what I have been reading of the trial, there was so little evidence that the defence has nothing to defend. I shall wait to see what the verdict is. Of course, in 'Calgary' things are so much different than any other city in Canada. I must keep that in mind.

Eeek! Do we dare go down this path? It has been a huge argument just for the attempt alone to suggest looking for an alternate theory.

My first go at it (from this point forward) would be exploring the "Where are they?" question. Not even the professionals have been able to answer that one yet! That could be a safe starting point...possibly. I wonder how DG replied to that question. I also wonder if any other late model Ford trucks were spotted on CCTV that night.

 

[deugirtni]

It is very simple and easy to quash any posters' posts should they differ or alter in any way from the prevailing police theory. It is not so simple and easy to come up with proof and facts, is it?

On a cold, snowy, -22C wintery day, wearing little more than Fall clothes with a light sweater, it's good to Canadian Up. The same goes for this case. To Canadian Up, in this case, would be to respect the justice system as it exists and to stop looking to the country to the South for their manner of handing criminal investigation information prior to trial. It's very entertaining to have the case tried in the media, but Canadian justice just isn't like that - thankfully. The accused will receive a fair trial where the integrity of the case is protected until the evidence is presented in a Court of Law ... Queen's Bench, in this case.

 

[deugirtni]

Since you reposted the moderator's post, why is it so difficult for some to allow opposing views? I'm not really sure why you are posting this link of CP's. I do not believe that I have been disrespectful of someone else's opinion. I only ask that opinion be stated as opinion and not as fact. Thank you. BBM.

Not really directing this your way, but since you mentioned TOS, I thought it may be a good time to bring forth what our moderator already stated on the subject.

Quote Originally Posted by Coldpizza View Post
Hi all, since Nathan, Katherine and Alvin sadly haven't been found that discussion is still open. Please be mindful they are officially considered deceased, but that doesn't mean you can't have an opposing view. Please, just be respectful of each other's opinions.

Thank you

 

[LoisLane]

I wonder if any other vehicles at all were spotted on CCTV that night. I wonder if any actual evidence was found in DG's truck. I wonder if LE were able to 'prove' that DG's truck was in 'fact' the same truck spotted on CCTV that night. I wonder if any of the evidence taken from the Airdrie property proves anything. I wonder if any evidence of the trio were found at DG's property. I wonder if any evidence of DG was found at the L home. I wonder if the stains on the sidewalk were 'proven' to be blood. I wonder why there was no evidence of break-in at the L home. I wonder if police followed up on ALL of their tips once they honed in on DG as owning a green truck, being remotely related, and historically providing services for AL, which AL's son said 'did not end on a bad note'. I wonder why there are so many opposing statements in this case. I wonder why close family members were not even clear about the L's plans for Mexico and Edmonton, even though the 'move' was to take place imminently. I wonder so very many things. I cannot wait for trial when we might actually hear what evidence the police have.

As a side note, a very old case that I have been following and which I had been following way back when it initially happened.. took TWELVE YEARS for police to make their arrest even though the accused was considered a suspect the entire time.. finally comes to trial.. after 3 weeks of the prosecution presenting their 'evidence', the defence presented no defence whatsoever. Blank, nothing. Why? Based on what I have been reading of the trial, there was so little evidence that the defence has nothing to defend. I shall wait to see what the verdict is. Of course, in 'Calgary' things are so much different than any other city in Canada. I must keep that in mind.

Wowzers! You are on a roll eh? I wonder all the same as you. I wonder about that truck photo that was released. I am not sure how the CCTV camera's work so maybe this is a silly question... If it was dark and the truck was picked up on a camera or multiple cameras would the photo have been lightened to show the color of the truck? If it was dark and another truck was seen that was the same body style would the truck color be identifiable?

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Read the MSM article in the link. LE thought they had enough evidence to charge Travis Vader, and proceed to trial. Something changed, be it new evidence, or a new interpretation of the evidence. It happens. In Alberta. With lots of officers on the case. Without the need to scream incompetence from the hilltops.

(Although in that case, it might be smart to have an independent review of its handling should no progress be made)

... and now upon reflection of the Vader case, and several arguments made by my better half... how did he get charged without the ME having anything to confirm death? Did ME sign the certificate? Was he charged without a death certificate? Were the charges stayed because perhaps they couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the victims are deceased?

 

[deugirtni]

Your post just made me think of something. I must have the crappiest computer or internet (I haven't yet determined which it is, or if it is in fact both), but sometimes there is a little lag.. and I will click on my mouse, but because of the lag, it ends up clicking on something ELSE instead. It drives me WILD! I am just wondering if that is a possibility for how that happened to your friend. I NEVER click on advertisements on a webpage, but depending on the performance of my computer/internet, that has happened where I have clicked one thing, only to be lagged and it instead clicks on the ad which I never want to see.

This never happened to me, but awhile back one of my FB friend's ranted on their status about how annoying FB was because it 'liked' a page she didn't like. It was a Walmart page or a similar type corporation and she's a super granola, organic/shop local type and anti-Walmart person and she was choked!

IIRC, she ranted something like 'if you see I liked Walmart in your news feed, don't believe it, I did not like their page or support them' it was something like that, I tried to go through her status history to find what she said, but couldn't find it. It might've happened last year, so awhile ago.

 

[news.talk]

Wowzers! You are on a roll eh? I wonder all the same as you. I wonder about that truck photo that was released. I am not sure how the CCTV camera's work so maybe this is a silly question... If it was dark and the truck was picked up on a camera or multiple cameras would the photo have been lightened to show the color of the truck? If it was dark and another truck was seen that was the same body style would the truck color be identifiable?

I wonder if the CPS were able to utilize their new facial recognition software.

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/technology...hnology-is-creeping-into-daily-life-1.2824623

Even though they just 'officially' rolled out this technology, I have heard that they have been using it for a while. From what I gather about this tech, they would be able to take the suspect's drivers license and match it with the person seen on CCTV driving the truck. I know they have other high tech gadgets in order to clean up the resolution and enhance the footage...

 

[deugirtni]

I think that to have an alternate theory is not to say that Chief Hanson is untrustworthy, dishonest, discredited, a liar, incompetent, stupid, or any other number of derogatory labels that have been thrown at those who reserve judgement. One thing does not equal the other thing. It feels to me like these accusations are being thrown around so that those who are considering alternate theories will stop speaking, because some have become so personally and emotionally charged in this case that they cannot accept opposing views. That is my own opinion of why these accusations are being tossed about constantly on this thread. Another seeming tactic is declaring opinions as truths, when they are no such thing. I see all of that as being attempts at silencing those who are entertaining other potential possibilities, even though those people are perfect entitled to do so since there is an absence of facts in this case. MOO.

I see the point you are making and please keep in mind that I don't completely disagree...

I am asking that *if* (not directed at you, but rather those that actually believe the trio are alive), the victims are NOT deceased, where are they and why would they do this to their families?

Personally, *I* feel that it is in the interest of the victims and justice as a whole, that we should question the facts of the case and not until all evidence has been reviewed can a determination be properly made. However, in the interim, since the person that made the statement that the victims are dead, has never had his integrity and professional ethics or judgement discredited, we have no reason (unless one can be provided) to deem him untrustworthy. If we can't trust him, then maybe we should be asking for him to step down. After all, it is in his office and role that we expect the utmost honesty and integrity.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

I see the point you are making and please keep in mind that I don't completely disagree...

I am asking that *if* (not directed at you, but rather those that actually believe the trio are alive), the victims are NOT deceased, where are they and why would they do this to their families?

Personally, *I* feel that it is in the interest of the victims and justice as a whole, that we should question the facts of the case and not until all evidence has been reviewed can a determination be properly made. However, in the interim, since the person that made the statement that the victims are dead, has never had his integrity and professional ethics or judgement discredited, we have no reason (unless one can be provided) to deem him untrustworthy. If we can't trust him, then maybe we should be asking for him to step down. After all, it is in his office and role that we expect the utmost honesty and integrity.

He's trustworthy. I believe he believes it, and knows more than I do. If you took a poll as to how many people absolutely believed they are alive... you'd get 0%... and if anyone came on here to say they were absolutely alive as fact, we'd all make the same arguments... you can't say they are alive as fact because you have not seen the evidence, and if you have seen the evidence, then I would like to know what it is too so I can judge for myself.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

I think that to have an alternate theory is not to say that Chief Hanson is untrustworthy, dishonest, discredited, a liar, incompetent, stupid, or any other number of derogatory labels that have been thrown at those who reserve judgement. One thing does not equal the other thing. It feels to me like these accusations are being thrown around so that those who are considering alternate theories will stop speaking, because some have become so personally and emotionally charged in this case that they cannot accept opposing views. That is my own opinion of why these accusations are being tossed about constantly on this thread. Another seeming tactic is declaring opinions as truths, when they are no such thing. I see all of that as being attempts at silencing those who are entertaining other potential possibilities, even though those people are perfect entitled to do so since there is an absence of facts in this case. MOO.

No way. If P then Q. You've been proven wrong.

 

[LoisLane]

... and now upon reflection of the Vader case, and several arguments made by my better half... how did he get charged without the ME having anything to confirm death? Did ME sign the certificate? Was he charged without a death certificate? Were the charges stayed because perhaps they couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the victims are deceased?

Oh my! I would really like to know the answers to your questions. I guess the ME had bodies to confirm death but not DNA evidence?

I found this quote chilling...

“They hid me in jail for years to investigate me when there was nothing there to begin with. If there was, I wouldn’t be here right now.”

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/1...used-him-of-murdering-missing-alberta-couple/

Had to catch up on the MSM... No bodies found...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...d-in-mccann-murders-freed-from-jail-1.2793057

 

[deugirtni]

I'm not sure really what you are getting at, but I suspect that with the type of technology that police would have at their fingertips, they would be able to determine a vehicle color even if dark outside by lightening the image, or looking at the color codes, (I don't know the language of this type of technology). Are you thinking about a different truck?

Wowzers! You are on a roll eh? I wonder all the same as you. I wonder about that truck photo that was released. I am not sure how the CCTV camera's work so maybe this is a silly question... If it was dark and the truck was picked up on a camera or multiple cameras would the photo have been lightened to show the color of the truck? If it was dark and another truck was seen that was the same body style would the truck color be identifiable?

 

[LoisLane]

I wonder if the CPS were able to utilize their new facial recognition software.

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/technology...hnology-is-creeping-into-daily-life-1.2824623

Even though they just 'officially' rolled out this technology, I have heard that they have been using it for a while. From what I gather about this tech, they would be able to take the suspect's drivers license and match it with the person seen on CCTV driving the truck. I know they have other high tech gadgets in order to clean up the resolution and enhance the footage...

Yes, possibly they had been testing it. I hope all the kinks have been worked out so that it doesn't cause any false positives. I can't recall the debate about the truck photo that was released whether it was a daylight photo or not. Does anyone know?

 

[LoisLane]

I'm not sure really what you are getting at, but I suspect that with the type of technology that police would have at their fingertips, they would be able to determine a vehicle color even if dark outside by lightening the image, or looking at the color codes, (I don't know the language of this type of technology). Are you thinking about a different truck?

I found a truck photo that is a late model F150 that is linked/owned/parked at an L. family member's residence. It is not green but the plan was to paint it and make it look good. Goodnight!

 

[deugirtni]

I haven't been following this case, but it sure sounds interesting and I would love to have more time to read! It seems that DV was not charged until 2 years after the M's went missing, but yet a court declared the couple dead one year after they went missing.

In the news articles linked below, notice that the Crown would not discuss the reasons why the charges were stayed, and that it was the 'assistant deputy minister of justice in charge of the Crown prosecution service' who said, 'the decision was made after receiving new information.'

It almost seems to me that it is saying that someone higher up than the Crown prosecution service reviewed the case and had the charges stayed, ie.. oversight. This, even though the Crown was so confident in their 'evidence' that they had foregone a preliminary hearing to instead proceed through direct indictment. Very very interesting.

But of course, we must keep in mind that Calgary and its people are so much different from every other city in Canada.

Vader was declared a person of interest days after the McCanns disappeared, but it took nearly two years to lay charges.

Greg Lepp, the assistant deputy minister of justice in charge of the Crown prosecution service, said the decision was made after receiving new information.

Last year, the Crown decided to skip a preliminary hearing for Vader and proceed through direct indictment to trial.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/travis-vader-charges-stayed-in-mccann-murder-case-1.2578680

Posted: Jul 27, 2011 12:23 PM MT
A court order declaring the Alberta couple dead was granted last week so the family can begin processing wills and dealing with the estate, said the McCann's son, Bret.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/mccanns-killed-on-day-of-disappearance-rcmp-believe-1.1021534

... and now upon reflection of the Vader case, and several arguments made by my better half... how did he get charged without the ME having anything to confirm death? Did ME sign the certificate? Was he charged without a death certificate? Were the charges stayed because perhaps they couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the victims are deceased?