Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #19

[Hez]

The similarities between these cases are uncanny...

What leaves me unsettled is - I always thought the suspect in the Liknes case must've used a gun to overpower three people and keep them quiet. I was saddened to read in another article that the McStays were presumed to have died from blunt force trauma, so presumably no gun.

How one man can overpower two adults with an object while they desperately try to save their children is stuff of nightmares. I can't imagine how this happens, I do know, sadly this seems to happen all the time in crimes

BBM - All a perpetrator has to do is threaten a child's life to get the parents (or grandparents) to comply with their demands.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Apparently the accused also hasn't been convicted yet in this trial either, and there are some that believe it would be impossible for one man, ie there are 'alternate theories' in this case as well, which time will only tell. For similarities, I really feel that if not for NO, LE would be thinking the same thing as they were thinking in this case... which some could say therefore that if the couple instead disappeared as a plan, taking NO with them was a good plan to have LE not pursue that direction.

I can understand alternate theories in both cases of more than one person being involved as it always seems hard to fathom one person being able to physically accomplish the crimes.

It's strange that in both cases the culprit didn't isolate the presumed targeted victim (the men of the family) and decided (and didn't care) to take out everyone which I find gross and heinous. I'm sure these men could have easily been lured somewhere so it was just them alone.

I thought the McStay case might be different as I thought it was spontaneous crime, but the suspect has been charged with first degree murder, so some sort of thought/plan went into it.

Whether the accused in both cases is innocent or guilty, the matter at hand is someone committed these acts. Someone is responsible and needs to be accountable. I'm hoping the evidence is strong enough in both cases that theres no doubt, whoever the suspect is facing charges, is the right person.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

BBM - All a perpetrator has to do is threaten a child's life to get the parents (or grandparents) to comply with their demands.

Agreed, I also think that in that awful situation one would reach a point when they see one person gravely injured or even killed and realize the direction things are going, physically fight back and chaos probably ensues.

That's why I'm really hoping it was a surprise from behind or a hit on the head or a gun was used so not a thought was cast to the victims in their final moments.

I know we've debated the 'struggle' and 'violent incident' already, don't want to go there again! My thoughts are just me wishing things were swift and painless for all of them.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Here is an interesting parallel to this case:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/after-years-authorities-say-family-killed-at-home/ar-AA76TX9

Including the perp walk photos at the bottom of the page...

 

[deugirtni]

Yes, interesting that. (the perp walk thing). I just can't imagine that in that case, after 4 years, they decide the crime, which they didn't know existed (they thought the foursome trod off), took place in the home. If the fourosme were 'bludgeoned', how could there not have been signs in the home? Was no evidence gathered? Hopefully this wasn't a 'Calgary' case.

Including the perp walk photos at the bottom of the page...

 

[otto]

Yes, interesting that. (the perp walk thing). I just can't imagine that in that case, after 4 years, they decide the crime, which they didn't know existed (they thought the foursome trod off), took place in the home. If the fourosme were 'bludgeoned', how could there not have been signs in the home? Was no evidence gathered? Hopefully this wasn't a 'Calgary' case.

The McStay case that is mentioned up-thread has nothing to do with Canada.

The discussion is here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...tt-a-k-a-Chase-07-Nov-2014-4&highlight=mcstay

 

[Slebby]

Those of us from Calgary don't need any proof that one killer can overpower several victims. Earlier this year, 5 young adults were killed at a house party by one assailant. No struggle involved there, AFAIK.

IMHO

 

[otto]

Those of us from Calgary don't need any proof that one killer can overpower several victims. Earlier this year, 5 young adults were killed at a house party by one assailant. No struggle involved there, AFAIK.

IMHO

The mass murder victims were at an end-of-semester party on the same day as Bermuda Shorts Day, which is celebrated at the university. Today, that event is a drinking binge that starts at noon. If the party goers were participating in Bermuda Shorts Day, it's unlikely that any of them had their wits about them later that evening. I'm pretty sure that, over the years, there have been deaths due to Bermuda Shorts Day, but they're usually the result of a prank such as someone prying open the elevator doors in residence - and some drunk person walking through those pried open doors when there is no elevator. It seems to me that water balloons were popular at end of semester parties ... until perhaps someone lost an eye. Bermuda Shorts Day is probably a very out of hand drunken bash.

 

[news.talk]

Those of us from Calgary don't need any proof that one killer can overpower several victims. Earlier this year, 5 young adults were killed at a house party by one assailant. No struggle involved there, AFAIK.

IMHO

So very true.

It is probable, that in the Liknes' case, that given the fact that the murders occurred during the late evening hours, that it was a blitz attack on sleeping individuals.

 

[otto]

DG is not connected to the condo. His sister may be. They could investigate that through the banks, and land agency in Mexico digitally. They had no reason to go down there for something so straightforward and simple. The Mexicans and the way they do things are becoming more like the rest of the world in terms of technology.

The condo is connected to the victims and the accused, whether we want to split hairs or not. It is jointly owned by Garland (the accused family) and Liknes (the victim's family). The police were in Mexico to learn more about the victim's plans to move there. Presumably, that included the condo. In fact, I think the condo was the focus of learning about the victim's plans to move to Mexico. If police were investigating that financial connection, they had to obtain official, notarized copies of documents, not electronic ones.

 

[otto]

For more than checking into paperwork, I can tell you that. They may have been following up on tips received re: sightings. They did say they followed up all tips, so perhaps someone reported them as being seen in Mexico?

I'm not aware of any link stating that police went to Mexico to pursue tips and sighting of people whom they knew to be dead. This is why Calgary detectives went to Mexico:

"Detectives with the Calgary Police Service travelled to Mexico, working with authorities there to learn more about the details of the Liknes’ plans about moving there. They have not said anything about what they found, if anything."

http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/accused-in-liknes-and-o-brien-murders-in-court-1.1959334#ixzz3JNP2pmb6

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

The mass murder victims were at an end-of-semester party on the same day as Bermuda Shorts Day, which is celebrated at the university. Today, that event is a drinking binge that starts at noon. If the party goers were participating in Bermuda Shorts Day, it's unlikely that any of them had their wits about them later that evening. I'm pretty sure that, over the years, there have been deaths due to Bermuda Shorts Day, but they're usually the result of a prank such as someone prying open the elevator doors in residence - and some drunk person walking through those pried open doors when there is no elevator. It seems to me that water balloons were popular at end of semester parties ... until perhaps someone lost an eye. Bermuda Shorts Day is probably a very out of hand drunken bash.

Speaking from experience, drunken brawling is possible... effective even, when confronted with a knife or broken bottle.

 

[LoisLane]

The condo is connected to the victims and the accused, whether we want to split hairs or not. It is jointly owned by Garland (the accused family) and Liknes (the victim's family). The police were in Mexico to learn more about the victim's plans to move there. Presumably, that included the condo. In fact, I think the condo was the focus of learning about the victim's plans to move to Mexico. If police were investigating that financial connection, they had to obtain official, notarized copies of documents, not electronic ones.

I am having a hard time finding the source/link that states the condo is a joint purchase. Can you please re-post it?

I am curious why reporters did not mention the joint condo purchase alongside the announcement that Police went to Mexico. Unless that is where the link is and I am missing it?

 

[deugirtni]

Following Garland’s arrest, police said investigators had a 30-day plan derived from intelligence and evidence gathered during their homicide probe.

“We are systematically searching locations that have a high likelihood of locating evidence, utilizing officers from the CPS, RCMP and provincially sanctioned civilian search organizations,” police said in a written statement nearly three weeks ago.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Police+Mexico+part+investigation+into+deaths+Nathan+Brien+grandparents/10091353/story.html

date of article: August 5, 2014

The condo is connected to the victims and the accused, whether we want to split hairs or not. It is jointly owned by Garland (the accused family) and Liknes (the victim's family). The police were in Mexico to learn more about the victim's plans to move there. Presumably, that included the condo. In fact, I think the condo was the focus of learning about the victim's plans to move to Mexico. If police were investigating that financial connection, they had to obtain official, notarized copies of documents, not electronic ones.

I'm not aware of any link stating that police went to Mexico to pursue tips and sighting of people whom they knew to be dead. This is why Calgary detectives went to Mexico:

"Detectives with the Calgary Police Service travelled to Mexico, working with authorities there to learn more about the details of the Liknes’ plans about moving there. They have not said anything about what they found, if anything."

http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/accused-in-liknes-and-o-brien-murders-in-court-1.1959334#ixzz3JNP2pmb6

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

You do know how to woo a girl!

Swashbuckling tales aside, my point was it does not take time to subdue someone, be it blunt force or with a sharp weapon. As fast as you can swing your arm 3 times with an object in your hand, it can be done. 7 seconds? 8? Inebriation not required.

 

[deugirtni]

For me, it's the whole thing.. not just the overpowering of 3 live victims.. it's the getting them out of the home and into the truck, and in relation to his size, although I shouldn't make that kind of judgement on shorter people, and supposedly cleaning up after himself on at least the outside of the home, if not the inside too, which we don't know, and multiple visits to the home with drives of ? miles each way in between the back and forth 'multiple' visits, and disposing of the bodies somewhere all within a max of 12 hours.

After discussion on WS it seems unlikely that it was really 12 hours that the perp had to work within, since sunrise was at whatever time, cutting his time by at least 4 hours or more, and so realistically, he would have had to have been completed his tasks and gone before sunrise, (unless he is a complete moron, I think, but the accused has been reported rather, to be a 'genius'). And also the travelling down the roadways with 3 bodies in the middle of the night, I'm presuming Calgary has a police presence on the roads and at night, and it seems so very risky to do that..

And then combine all of that with the fact that some want to think the perp chopped up the bodies to make it easier to transport to and from the truck,.. all of these things take time.. and I would imagine that the killer would be under high stress, especially since there was one more body than expected to have to deal with and dispose of.. I'm just not getting how all of that is possible within those few short hours. And where did he take them.. would he really bring the evidence to his home? That would be really non-genius thinking.

So I'm certain it wouldn't have been a problem to overpower 3 people if they were sleeping, it's all the other things and the timelines and that he did all of that by himself without leaving any 'smoking guns' for evidence. MOO

Those of us from Calgary don't need any proof that one killer can overpower several victims. Earlier this year, 5 young adults were killed at a house party by one assailant. No struggle involved there, AFAIK.

IMHO

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

For me, it's the whole thing.. not just the overpowering of 3 live victims.. it's the getting them out of the home and into the truck, and in relation to his size, although I shouldn't make that kind of judgement on shorter people, and supposedly cleaning up after himself on at least the outside of the home, if not the inside too, which we don't know, and multiple visits to the home with drives of ? miles each way in between the back and forth 'multiple' visits, and disposing of the bodies somewhere all within a max of 12 hours.

After discussion on WS it seems unlikely that it was really 12 hours that the perp had to work within, since sunrise was at whatever time, cutting his time by at least 4 hours or more, and so realistically, he would have had to have been completed his tasks and gone before sunrise, (unless he is a complete moron, I think, but the accused has been reported rather, to be a 'genius'). And also the travelling down the roadways with 3 bodies in the middle of the night, I'm presuming Calgary has a police presence on the roads and at night, and it seems so very risky to do that..

And then combine all of that with the fact that some want to think the perp chopped up the bodies to make it easier to transport to and from the truck,.. all of these things take time.. and I would imagine that the killer would be under high stress, especially since there was one more body than expected to have to deal with and dispose of.. I'm just not getting how all of that is possible within those few short hours. And where did he take them.. would he really bring the evidence to his home? That would be really non-genius thinking.

So I'm certain it wouldn't have been a problem to overpower 3 people if they were sleeping, it's all the other things and the timelines and that he did all of that by himself without leaving any 'smoking guns' for evidence. MOO

Genius can be defined in many ways. One can be book smart, technically brilliant, well versed, but completely unable to apply that to real life, or get past their own denial, ego, or victim complexes... pick your issue... to use it effectively.

We can all agree the third victim was unexpected, or highly, highly likely unexpected... the murders could have been planned for months by a genius, but the need to ad lib such an act and it's aftermath, would certainly cause issues.

The fact that there was "lots of blood" left behind may be a sign the amount of time was not enough for one person to complete the job as planned. No amount of genius can predict an exact amount of time required. Nor can one predict how much undetected time you will have.

All the scenarios you describe are plausible. Stan once described the process of dismembering animals, and said it wasn't as difficult as you would think.

One could also make the argument that if there were 2 perps at the scene, it may have been a cleaner crime scene by the time LE got there.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Those of us from Calgary don't need any proof that one killer can overpower several victims. Earlier this year, 5 young adults were killed at a house party by one assailant. No struggle involved there, AFAIK.

IMHO

Good point...that was bizarre how in a place full of people he managed to attach 5 of them. I guess though, when you know everyone in the room and they're your friends, your focus wouldn't be on protecting yourself...terrible tragedy that.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

So very true.

It is probable, that in the Liknes' case, that given the fact that the murders occurred during the late evening hours, that it was a blitz attack on sleeping individuals.

You just made me think of something, I know we've discusses blitz attack vs. object vs. gun before but if a blitz or use of an object occurred wouldn't there be blood spatter patterns that were obvious to this from the beginning? Then LE would've known and stated that murder occurred from the beginning wouldn't they?

I think it would be hard to hide spatter, tissue, matter if this was the COD. This makes me think it might've been something less obvious for them not to state homicide from the beginning. Maybe blood, but not in spatter form.

If a gun and pillow was used as a way to keep things quiet, no spatter would've been as obvious to see and maybe blood was more pooled that contributed to drag marks.

I always feel bad discussing this stuff….

 

[news.talk]

Genius can be defined in many ways. One can be book smart, technically brilliant, well versed, but completely unable to apply that to real life, or get past their own denial, ego, or victim complexes... pick your issue... to use it effectively.

We can all agree the third victim was unexpected, or highly, highly likely unexpected... the murders could have been planned for months by a genius, but the need to ad lib such an act and it's aftermath, would certainly cause issues.

The fact that there was "lots of blood" left behind may be a sign the amount of time was not enough for one person to complete the job as planned. No amount of genius can predict an exact amount of time required. Nor can one predict how much undetected time you will have.

All the scenarios you describe are plausible. Stan once described the process of dismembering animals, and said it wasn't as difficult as you would think.

One could also make the argument that if there were 2 perps at the scene, it may have been a cleaner crime scene by the time LE got there.

I along with others have speculated that the suspect may be on the Autism spectrum, closer to Aspergers. Planning and calculating can be precise, while dealing with the emotions of the victims and his own in the process, might have been too much to handle, leading to mistakes.