Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #19

[Tinkerbel1]

If it is true that LE knew *exactly* what they were dealing with then I do have a tough time trusting them and respecting their investigative process and the way they handled themselves in the media. Thousands of people held hope that this family was missing and LE allowed that hope to go on for two weeks. If they did this to protect the investigative process and made alluding statements of hope I personally have lost respect for the way they handled it. What would be the purpose for LE to do this? What would they be hoping to gain? If they knew they were murdered but had to wait for results why didn't they say so? The first two weeks the public were searching for missing people. Not missing dead people. I would think the interest and tips would have taken a different direction if they were forthcoming from day one.

That is a very good point Lois and I share your sentiment. There was no reason for the families or the public to be led on until evidence came back from testing. If evidence was found within the two weeks, it must have been pretty obvious that they were likely deceased. The only thing that was mentioned was that "someone in the Liknes home ''could'' be in medical distress". That actually was a comment that was meant not to raise a lot of concern...it was mildy and diplomatically stated, with no warning air that something bigger had possibly gone on.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

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If chaos did ensue after seeing one person grieviously injured or killed would certainly have produced noise...screaming of NO at the very least because he would have been scared. I highly doubt he was the first victim. My thought would be AL as he is the strongest and most likely to put up the biggest struggle..although one should never underestimate the power of a female if under duress. Flight or fight...my idea of KL is that she would fight. Despite this large altercation at the Liknes home, there seems to be a strange absence of noise...its conspicuous in it's absence as a matter of fact. IMO

I just watched a movie last night where a murder occurred, and then a little child was found hiding in a back room groping a doll, quiet and scared. So the child didn't scream because she was so petrified. So disturbing, shouldn't have watched before bed! Anyways, I guess it made me think of NO and this crime. I sometimes wonder if people don't have time to scream or are too petrified to.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

If it is true that LE knew *exactly* what they were dealing with then I do have a tough time trusting them and respecting their investigative process and the way they handled themselves in the media. Thousands of people held hope that this family was missing and LE allowed that hope to go on for two weeks. If they did this to protect the investigative process and made alluding statements of hope I personally have lost respect for the way they handled it. What would be the purpose for LE to do this? What would they be hoping to gain? If they knew they were murdered but had to wait for results why didn't they say so? The first two weeks the public were searching for missing people. Not missing dead people. I would think the interest and tips would have taken a different direction if they were forthcoming from day one.

In no way am I defending a certain someone here, and don't read anything into it, but I think she meant LE's finely tuned hunches based on experience, signaled this was bad. Until they can confirm through evidence, then they can't confirm publicly. The word "hope" was used many times, if not every time...

I promise to be more disagreeable in the future.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

dg had a workshop,, there are many unique ways to control and then kill people;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Brian_Douglas_Wells

He did have a workshop? On the acreage? Or somewhere else?

 

[news.talk]

Yeah, a trained eye and experienced detectives would probably know what happened by the scene but I'm still just so surprised and a bit confused they said they were hanging onto hope they'd be find alive.

I mean, just saying the words 'alive' at a press conference conjures up hope for everyone, and letting the family (JO and RO) send a message to NO on TV seems strange to do if LE knew they were all deceased. Unless they were doing this as strategy to maybe weigh on the conscience of the perp.

If they knew they were all deceased from the beginning, they could have said 'no comment' or veiled their statements to not conjure up such hope. Don't get me wrong, I'm not slamming LE, just a bit confused why they did it this way. Maybe they thought NO escaped by chance somehow or was hiding or maybe thought not everyone had succumbed to death at the Parkhill home, I guess they might've known *a* murder occurred, but not how many.

This is not a common crime scene to come across. While detectives would have their gut instincts, legally they cannot go to the press with nothing more, without serious ramifications if they are wrong.

Because a child was involved, they had to meet the criteria for an Amber Alert. Operating on the presumption that the victim's are alive is valid, as they have no bodies or forensic evidence to draw upon.

IMHO, they based their decision to presume life until proven otherwise, on many factors and carefully weighed each one. They did the best they could in a very uncommon situation, and by homicide timeframes, they made an arrest in a timely and hopefully effective manner.

MOO

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I know first hand and have heard many stories of children sleeping through extremely loud events including smoke detectors and house alarms, arguing, and forms of impact. I pray that NO was sound asleep. If he was asleep and DG still took it upon himself to eliminate a witness... I don't know what to say.

So many scenarios to consider. I just can't seem to wrap my head around the actual murder process.

I know, I hate discussing it, and should stop, too close to bedtime and just too sad. I'm hoping NO and KL were asleep together and didn't even know what happened. I think AL would've been awake still and there might've been a struggle between the men.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

He did have a workshop? On the acreage? Or somewhere else?

I would say likely on the acreage.

 

[stan laurel]

I would say likely on the acreage.

ranchland equipment. even if he didn't have that company, every farm - hobby or not - has tools to create devices. an electricians zip strap (those straps sometimes used as handcuffs) would not only keep one from screaming but might cause some blood.

To be quite honest, being that most people don't live with an abattoir close to home or in their homes, I see it as unlikely that someone JO would know the difference between a lot of blood and little blood.

 

[LoisLane]

When there are no bodies, no witnesses, and no early leads , they would be remiss to proceed any other way than on the presumption that they were alive. Had they declared them dead witjout conclusive forensic evidence and they turned out to be alive??? THAT would have been a disaster!

I think it would have been more welcomed and accepted if LE put themselves on the line by taking that risk especially if experts are certain within a few moments of enterring the crime scene. If they made a mistake they would have to answer to it and that should be manageable.

 

[news.talk]

I would say likely on the acreage.

How did he subdue them to get them in the truck (considering one would be a frightened child), keep three people from screaming and fighting back without being heard by neighbours, and prevent them from signaling motorists along the way? It was reported that at least one person was in medical distress, most likely bleeding profusely... How did he manage to not get blood all over his truck, since it has been stated that such evidence would be considered a 'smoking gun'?

 

[stan laurel]

I think it would have been more welcomed and accepted if LE put themselves on the line by taking that risk especially if experts are certain within a few moments of enterring the crime scene. If they made a mistake they would have to answer to it and that should be manageable.

there are far better neutral stances one can make without creating false hope, one would think.

 

[news.talk]

I think it would have been more welcomed and accepted if LE put themselves on the line by taking that risk especially if experts are certain within a few moments of enterring the crime scene. If they made a mistake they would have to answer to it and that should be manageable.

I am confident they needed to follow strict protocols and made the arduous decision after very careful deliberation. I have never known our LE to make uncalculated risks when there was the "hope" that one or more victims were alive and possibly being held captive. I cannot imagine the amount of consideration that went into their decision and the weight felt by the officers making it.

 

[LoisLane]

How did he subdue them to get them in the truck (considering one would be a frightened child), keep three people from screaming and fighting back without being heard by neighbours, and prevent them from signaling motorists along the way? It was reported that at least one person was in medical distress, most likely bleeding profusely... How did he manage to not get blood all over his truck, since it has been stated that such evidence would be considered a 'smoking gun'?

Maybe sedation. He could have injected at least two of them with something while they were quietly sleeping. He did try out medical school so maybe he has some basic knowledge.

 

[news.talk]

This just came out regarding the Calgary Brentwood homicides.

I suspect a similar application will be made in this case:

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/cal...amilies-issue-plea-to-calgary-media-1.2838300

It certainly will set a precident for this case since they will so close in dates. Obviously many people here would like to see what evidence was gathered in order to search the acreage, but that will have the same implications for the families.

 

[LoisLane]

I am confident they needed to follow strict protocols and made the arduous decision after very careful deliberation. I have never known our LE to make uncalculated risks when there was the "hope" that one or more victims were alive and possibly being held captive. I cannot imagine the amount of consideration that went into their decision and the weight felt by the officers making it.

If they had to abide by strict protocols then I hope they would have to abide by strict statements to the public. I don't think they demonstrated that. So, in LE's defense I will assume that they did not have enough blood evidence or other matter to know that one or more people were murdered in the Parkhill home.

 

[LoisLane]

This just came out regarding the Calgary Brentwood homicides.

I suspect a similar application will be made in this case:

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/cal...amilies-issue-plea-to-calgary-media-1.2838300

I think for this case (Brentwood) the details would be extremely graphic because of the multiple stab wounds on the victims. Seeing as in this case we have no bodies there is not going to be the same explanation of graphic details. Unless DG confesses and the bodies are recovered.

 

[news.talk]

I think for this case (Brentwood) the details would be extremely graphic because of the multiple stab wounds on the victims. Seeing as in this case we have no bodies there is not going to be the same explanation of graphic details. Unless DG confesses and the bodies are recovered.

Unless of course the police have been very careful with releasing information and there was in fact, more to the crime scene that some expect.

 

[LoisLane]

Unless of course the police have been very careful with releasing information and there was in fact, more to the crime scene that some expect.

Sure. But that just brings me back to holding LE accountable for misleading the public and the families.

 

[stan laurel]

one would think that le would have cordoned off more than just the house to the end of the driveway? should of cordoned off the whole street to traffic such as media. if there was blood in the bed of the truck from the loading point, it likely would have shifted to the back of the truck as he drove away, assuming that he drove west. I wonder if le checked car washes in the area,, most use recycled water, so filters would have collected residue.

 

[news.talk]

there are far better neutral stances one can make without creating false hope, one would think.

Perhaps neutrality is subjective?

"We're very confident that we are going to find these family members and we are hoping that we are going to find them alive," he said.

I take from this early statement, that they are going to find them (dead or alive - remains eventually surface) and they are holding out HOPE that they find them alive.

I can see the distinction and appreciate that not everyone hears the same message, but I find this statement very neutral.