Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #19

[news.talk]

Are they allowed to conduct their investigations based on "feelings"? I think that notion was kiboshed a while back.

I would imagine they base their investigation on what they know at the time. Part of what they know stems from experience and they rely on that experience until they have conclusive results regarding the evidence. Luckily, they have enough people with different experiences to draw from.

Thought you were going to bed!

 

[LoisLane]

Here are a few quotes in this article from CPS on July 3rd.

It also says that they have video from both neighbours' homes. I never knew that! I always assumed it was that one house on the corner. If they had video that close to the house they surely would have known if unresponsive bodies were removed.

ETA: ok, maybe that meant more than one neighbour but not necessarily a next-door neighbour...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...t-case-less-of-a-mystery-say-police-1.2695310

Staff Sgt. Doug Andrus said police are pleased with the progress of investigation, but can't say much more.

"We've obtained … video and film from both neighbours' homes and businesses in the area. To give you an exact number, I can't, but again we're in the process of reviewing that," said Andrus.

"I would say it's less a mystery to us," he said. "Are we closer than yesterday? I would say we are."

"We have no suspects we can name, but we have information that's allowed us to move forward."

"We're keeping an open mind, looking at all possibilities, hoping we'll find them alive," said Andrus at a press conference Thursday.

"We are now convinced there are people out there with information," said Chief Rick Hanson.

"We don't know the motive behind this. Right now we have three individuals who have disappeared under suspicious circumstances," said Andrus on Wednesday

 

[deugirtni]

LE stated on July 17 that they had a '30 day plan to guide them', and then when they went to Mexico sometime around Aug 5th, LE said they had planned to go to Mexico as part of their previously written '30 day plan'. The '30 day plan' was drafted after DG's arrest and after police believed the trio to be dead. They seem to indicate that the '30 day plan' is a 'search plan' which is 'intelligence driven' which includes systematically searching locations with a high likelihood of locating evidence'.
BBM:

..... Despite extensive searches of the Liknes’ Parkhill home along with a rural property owned by Garland’s parents — where he lived — and two landfills in Calgary, no trace has been found.

Community members organized a massive search effort on Wednesday, however that was scrapped at the request of police.

In a statement released Thursday, police said they are implementing a 30-day search plan, “that is intelligence driven, which cannot be shared outside of law enforcement in order to protect the integrity of the investigation.”

“We are systematically searching locations that have a high likelihood of locating evidence utilizing officers from the CPS, RCMP and provincially sanctioned civilian search organizations,” reads the statement.

“The service has and will continue to dedicate as many resources as necessary to complete what has become a highly sensitive, and complex, investigation.”

Police are, however, asking the public — especially those living in and around Airdrie — to check their own properties for anything suspicious.

http://www.calgarysun.com/2014/07/17/fundraisers-organized-to-support-family-of-missing-trio-nathan-obrien-and-grandparents-alvin-and-kathryn-liknes

That information about the 30 day plan came out July 17:

from:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...r-search-called-off+&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca



from:
http://www2.canada.com/calgaryherald/iphone/news/latest/story.html?id=10039101



While the Aug 5 Calgary Herald article references the 30 day plan in their article about the trip to Mexico, the earlier articles ^^ make it sound to be more in the context of the ground searches.

 

[LoisLane]

I would imagine they base their investigation on what they know at the time. Part of what they know stems from experience and they rely on that experience until they have conclusive results regarding the evidence. Luckily, they have enough people with different experiences to draw from.

Thought you were going to bed!

You first!

 

[deugirtni]

Then I suppose that must mean that they went to Mexico looking for the victims' remains? Police stated that they went to Mexico as part of their previously drafted 30 day search plan, and they were simply carrying it out. The plan was drafted after DG's arrest.

That is exactly how I read this article. They are referring to the search for the victim's remains.

 

[deugirtni]

Another strange case.

Yes, this is the one...Justin...I was thinking "Josh"

 

[deugirtni]

Exactly. As jas been stated by LE themselves.. this case was put together, 'piece by piece by piece....' and although you state the ME called the trio's deaths, there is no statement anywhere to that effect, which there would have been if it were true. And as LoisLane has recalled, and I also recall, there was a video statement by LE stating there are ways to determine death without bodies, such as no longer using bank accounts, etc. Do you remember that? And now.. since then.. some of the news articles and videos have been disappearing from the net.

If that is the case, where did they locate the evidence that concluded the victim's were deceased?

 

[deugirtni]

Definitely agree about the 'genius'. In my humble opinion, I have seen evidence of that in my line of work over the years, dealing with many who have PhD's and yet they seem to often be missing some of the 'everyday smarts', if you know what I mean? It seems also, imho, that the real smart ones dont' seem to be particularly socially adept, but we can't all be everything.

The 'lots of blood'.. was hearsay.. and discussion was held on here about the validity and accuracy of that statement. There may not have even been any 'cleanup', because LE has never stated whether the 'drag marks' were in fact blood, and at the time LE was saying there were 'marks along the side of the house', they were specifying they meant 'on the house' and not on the walk, as per one of the video conferences they held and subsequent Q&A with media.

Although I would expect it would be difficult to 'dismember' a person, it may not be as you have indicated, however, I imagine that would all take time, which was my point. I work fulltime, and seriously, I think I have lots of time to complete things, but time just zooms away.. things aren't always done as quickly as we think they're being done in our minds. It just seems like an awful lot to do in a very few short hours, under stress, without anyone seeing or hearing anything, and no evidence considered strong enough to be a smoking gun was left behind. MOO

Genius can be defined in many ways. One can be book smart, technically brilliant, well versed, but completely unable to apply that to real life, or get past their own denial, ego, or victim complexes... pick your issue... to use it effectively.

We can all agree the third victim was unexpected, or highly, highly likely unexpected... the murders could have been planned for months by a genius, but the need to ad lib such an act and it's aftermath, would certainly cause issues.

The fact that there was "lots of blood" left behind may be a sign the amount of time was not enough for one person to complete the job as planned. No amount of genius can predict an exact amount of time required. Nor can one predict how much undetected time you will have.

All the scenarios you describe are plausible. Stan once described the process of dismembering animals, and said it wasn't as difficult as you would think.

One could also make the argument that if there were 2 perps at the scene, it may have been a cleaner crime scene by the time LE got there.

 

[deugirtni]

Exactly. One can't have it both ways. Either there is truth and integrity, or there are untruths, and lack of integrity. We can't put all faith in LE statements one day, while going along with untrue statements on other days. Which is it?

If it is true that LE knew *exactly* what they were dealing with then I do have a tough time trusting them and respecting their investigative process and the way they handled themselves in the media. Thousands of people held hope that this family was missing and LE allowed that hope to go on for two weeks. If they did this to protect the investigative process and made alluding statements of hope I personally have lost respect for the way they handled it. What would be the purpose for LE to do this? What would they be hoping to gain? If they knew they were murdered but had to wait for results why didn't they say so? The first two weeks the public were searching for missing people. Not missing dead people. I would think the interest and tips would have taken a different direction if they were forthcoming from day one.

 

[deugirtni]

I don't think an ME can call a death with bodies really. But as I have mentioned on many occasions, if the ME was called, it could have been for a number of reasons, and not just to conclude a death.

Given that the ME was not at the acreage, but at the Parkhill home, I would guess that was the primary crime scene.

 

[news.talk]

Then I suppose that must mean that they went to Mexico looking for the victims' remains? Police stated that they went to Mexico as part of their previously drafted 30 day search plan, and they were simply carrying it out. The plan was drafted after DG's arrest.

I suspect you may be combining quotes from the same article - one referring to thw Mexican trip and the other about searching for remains. Would you be able to paste the specific quote that you are referring too?

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

I wouldn't dare speak for my better half... Personally, I think that saying "I don't know" would have created more ridicule than what they did say.

I suspect that they chose their wording based on the possibility of a kidnapping. At the time they had no way of determining conclusively who and how many people were injured or deceased. They needed to provide *some* information to hopefully elicit public assistance, in the event that someone was alive and in dire danger or medical distress.

Yes... let's not be so agreeable. It's not that enjoyable tension without the tension.

I don't think repeating "we don't know" press conference after press conference would go over that well, or instill any confidence in the public. Saying they "think" they are dead, but they have no proof would not go over very well either. It may also keep people from providing leads, or stop searching for the victims if indeed they were alive. To say they are alive conclusively without proof doesn't work either, for obvious reasons.

We constantly ask for more information, and for honest information from LE... and that, IMO, is what we got thoughout the initial stages of the investigation.

By saying they are searching for the victims, one may have been in medical distress, and that they hope they are alive... the overall theme of that message is clearly they don't know.

 

[news.talk]

I don't think an ME can call a death with bodies really. But as I have mentioned on many occasions, if the ME was called, it could have been for a number of reasons, and not just to conclude a death.

Of course they can:

Role:

When a death occurs suddenly or it cannot be explained, the OCME conducts an investigation, under the authority of theFatality Inquiries Act.

We hold each of our investigations to determine:

who died
where they died
when they died
why they died
how they died

http://justice.alberta.ca/programs_services/fatality/ocme/Pages/default.aspx

What other reason would they have been there for?

 

[deugirtni]

Especially if there had been an attempt made to 'clean up', like say, the 'drag marks' on the exterior sidewalk. If something is wiped or dragged, it may look like it was originally more than it was, ie efforts in cleaning up make it look even worse. You have a drop, and then wipe it.. now there is a big line of the drop showing, instead of just the drop.

ranchland equipment. even if he didn't have that company, every farm - hobby or not - has tools to create devices. an electricians zip strap (those straps sometimes used as handcuffs) would not only keep one from screaming but might cause some blood.

To be quite honest, being that most people don't live with an abattoir close to home or in their homes, I see it as unlikely that someone JO would know the difference between a lot of blood and little blood.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Of course they can:

Role:

When a death occurs suddenly or it cannot be explained, the OCME conducts an investigation, under the authority of theFatality Inquiries Act.

We hold each of our investigations to determine:

who died
where they died
when they died
why they died
how they died

http://justice.alberta.ca/programs_services/fatality/ocme/Pages/default.aspx

What other reason would they have been there for?

I would assume they were called in to provide expert opinion on some evidence found there, for example, bodily fluids, tissue etc. so LE could form an educated, initial theory on the fate of the victims, and perhaps aid in what should be considered evidence and collected. From the Chief of Police's statement that the victims were deceased, he indicated they concluded the victims were deceased shortly before the charges were brought forward.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Especially if there had been an attempt made to 'clean up', like say, the 'drag marks' on the exterior sidewalk. If something is wiped or dragged, it may look like it was originally more than it was, ie efforts in cleaning up make it look even worse. You have a drop, and then wipe it.. now there is a big line of the drop showing, instead of just the drop.

... but LE also stated someone left in medical distress. I suspect there was a lot of blood by most people's standard.

 

[deugirtni]

I suspect you may be combining quotes from the same article - one referring to thw Mexican trip and the other about searching for remains. Would you be able to paste the specific quote that you are referring too?

I am referring to 'your' statement in which you are saying you understood the article to say LE's '30 day plan' was referring to the search for the victims' remains. Then later when LE went to Mexico and they stated it was part of their '30 day plan' which had been drafted 3 weeks earlier, if your understanding is correct, then they were in Mexico to search for victims' remains.

Quote Originally Posted by news.talk View Post
That is exactly how I read this article. They are referring to the search for the victim's remains.

 

[deugirtni]

I believe an ME could be called for reasons such as to call upon their expertise in matters such as perhaps blood spatter, or keeping a crime scene/specimens intact without possibility of contamination, or to witness the scene, or if LE had a question(s), or any number of reasons which perhaps you and I can't even think of.

Of course they can:

Role:

When a death occurs suddenly or it cannot be explained, the OCME conducts an investigation, under the authority of theFatality Inquiries Act.

We hold each of our investigations to determine:

who died
where they died
when they died
why they died
how they died

http://justice.alberta.ca/programs_services/fatality/ocme/Pages/default.aspx

What other reason would they have been there for?

 

[news.talk]

I believe an ME could be called for reasons such as to call upon their expertise in matters such as perhaps blood spatter, or keeping a crime scene/specimens intact without possibility of contamination, or to witness the scene, or if LE had a question(s), or any number of reasons which perhaps you and I can't even think of.

What you described is the role of the forensic technicians with the CPS. The ME is ONLY called out in the event of death.

 

[otto]

I am having a hard time finding the source/link that states the condo is a joint purchase. Can you please re-post it?

I am curious why reporters did not mention the joint condo purchase alongside the announcement that Police went to Mexico. Unless that is where the link is and I am missing it?

The video was linked in earlier posts. I don't have time to search for it, but it was posted around the time that police went to Mexico, so around Aug 5-6.