Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #20

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  • #221
Indeed. If you re-read most of the posts, mine included, everyone has acknowledged this is a rarity, not just in Calgary, but across Canada, and an anomaly in many parts of the world... and thus... probably difficult to classify, especially given the legal constraints LE face in publicly releasing information in Canada.

But classify it, they must. Soooooo... as a simple suggestion... a one liner in a spreadsheet that convicts no one, offends no one, and is lousy employee proof... 'Suspected' was put forward. Perhaps a thesaurus could help for those offended... it's far better than inconsistent numbers.

Again... Perhaps it's time for a policy. I would favor a policy against reading far too much into a criticism... like an accusation of incompetence... when it's not there. A post is more than a single sentence, and requires a full, contextual understanding before replying accurately.
In order to make something a policy, should they not first determine all the facts? Given that the facts of this case may very well be disputed in the courts, perhaps they are waiting, so that they may provide accurate reporting?
 
  • #222
In order to make something a policy, should they not first determine all the facts? Given that the facts of this case may very well be disputed in the courts, perhaps they are waiting, so that they may provide accurate reporting?
If I understand the issue correctly, the homicide total includes the victims, but the finer details do not. Therefore, it is not a full 'waiting' as it is acknowledged as homicide at some level.

Thanks Deug for getting me sucked into this.

Therefore, a simple qualifier... Suspected, Unconfirmed, Before The Courts, To Be Continued, Publication Ban, would be something to look at... possibly...

Is it a big deal? Nope. Accusing people of accusing LE of incompetence, sort of is...
 
  • #223
If I understand the issue correctly, the homicide total includes the victims, but the finer details do not. Therefore, it is not a full 'waiting' as it is acknowledged as homicide at some level.

Thanks Deg for getting me sucked into this.

Therefore, a simple qualifier... Suspected, Unconfirmed, Before The Courts, To Be Continued, Publication Ban, would be something to look at... possibly...

Is it a big deal? Nope. Accusing people of accusing LE of incompetence, sort of is...

It has been an undertone in this particular thread pretty much since this case began. I've never felt the need before, but am bowing out of this thread permanently as it appears I've become to sensitive to the issues involving LE.

It's been a slice !!
 
  • #224
It has been an undertone in this particular thread pretty much since this case began. I've never felt the need before, but am bowing out of this thread permanently as it appears I've become to sensitive to the issues involving LE.

It's been a slice !!
Sorry Deug, for accusing you of saying LE is incompetent. I read too much into it.

That's what I would have said.
 
  • #225
Jian and Bill Cosby should get a 2 for 1 lawyer deal! So tired of these guys abusing their celebrity and power, so many out there. Definitely probably sociopaths if not psychopaths.

I totally agree with you, lil miss! Sociopaths and Psychopaths are both considered the same thing now. Apparently Psychiatrists no longer use the word Psychopath. Really, what's the difference...both are born with neurons that don't fire properly and unfortunately unrehabilitateable (is that a word?)
 
  • #226
It’s fine that people are questioning the stats and want accountability, but it’s the generalizations related to all CPS that bugs the hell out of me. In all my years of working with an exemplary track record, it burns my chaps to think that if someone else in the company made an error in a stat report, every professional in the entire company could have been cast in the same light. I doubt whoever compiles stats for CPS was part of the homicide team. Maybe it’s some newbie or other poor clerk that, like us, doesn’t have a clue where the Ls and NO were killed either and didn’t know how to enter the stats to reflect it accurately.

I worked at an executive level for many years because of certain skills that I brought to the organizations. Did I know how to order postage stamps or elastics? Nope, but if some clerk screwed up on ordering postage stamps and elastics, I sure wouldn’t expect myself and anyone else in the organization to be classed is unprofessional or incompetent based on someone else’s poor performance.

Folks can question the stats all they want, but when it comes to making statements painting the whole CPS force, including an experienced homicide team and the chief as possibly incompetent (which I interpret as “a negative light”), yeah I take issue with that. IF we find out down the road that there was incompetence on behalf of the homicide team or the chief, then I’ll have a problem with the investigation.

What is it called then, when someone (Lois Lane) speaks to LE about the difference in stats shown to the public on a report that are clearly at odds with what's being reported in the media, just to be told basically that the stats aren't necessarily accurate and brushes it off as essentially irrelevant? Take the damn stats off the web then. If all that's going to be done is blow off one of their own obvious discrepancies...then what exactly is that? Please explain it to us. This isn't about postage stamps and elastics...although I get your point, it's about 3 lives. One might think that the correct reporting on LE stats would be of concern to LE.
 
  • #227
I personally don't care about the stats on an obscure website that hardly anyone looks at. It's enough for me that the police chief issued a statement in which he stated "they're dead", and that someone has been charged with 3 murders. The facts as LE is able to share them could not be more clear. Plus, I suspect that the discrepancy in the stats will become clear to us when the case goes to trial. I doubt many Calgarians are clamouring for an accurate body count for Parkhill in June/July of 2014. I'm sure most are just glad the police found their suspect relatively quickly and that the wheels of justice are moving forward.

IMHO


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  • #228
I totally agree with you, lil miss! Sociopaths and Psychopaths are both considered the same thing now. Apparently Psychiatrists no longer use the word Psychopath. Really, what's the difference...both are born with neurons that don't fire properly and unfortunately unrehabilitateable (is that a word?)

Thanks Tink, good to know the title sociopath is the word du jour lol! I can't keep up with psychology, it seems there's new words and disorders all the time in that business ;)

I wonder how many other celebrities/politicians/CEOs or other people in powerful positions we'll hear about in the next while. I'm hoping what the women/victims in the Jian and Bill Cosby case are doing is contagious with the power they're creating in numbers and I hope it gets others victims talking so they don't stay silent, I'm sure there's many more of these sociopaths out there that haven't been exposed!
 
  • #229
I personally don't care about the stats on an obscure website that hardly anyone looks at. It's enough for me that the police chief issued a statement in which he stated "they're dead", and that someone has been charged with 3 murders. The facts as LE is able to share them could not be more clear. Plus, I suspect that the discrepancy in the stats will become clear to us when the case goes to trial. I doubt many Calgarians are clamouring for an accurate body count for Parkhill in June/July of 2014. I'm sure most are just glad the police found their suspect relatively quickly and that the wheels of justice are moving forward.

IMHO


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... and most probably share that sentiment.

The breakdown in communication seems to occur when someone, on a sleuthing site no less, questions what, if any, meaning it could have... then get shouted down with accusations of calling LE incompetent.

It's a bizarre ritual.
 
  • #230
I personally don't care about the stats on an obscure website that hardly anyone looks at. It's enough for me that the police chief issued a statement in which he stated "they're dead", and that someone has been charged with 3 murders. The facts as LE is able to share them could not be more clear. Plus, I suspect that the discrepancy in the stats will become clear to us when the case goes to trial. I doubt many Calgarians are clamouring for an accurate body count for Parkhill in June/July of 2014. I'm sure most are just glad the police found their suspect relatively quickly and that the wheels of justice are moving forward.

IMHO


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I respect your viewpoint. It has occured to me that the families of the victims have little answers from LE in regards to to details of this case. What if they have referred to the Crime Map and the Monthly Stat Reports and are confused by it? Would they ask LE to clarify it? Would LE clarify it? It could mean something to someone someday.
 
  • #231
I respect your viewpoint. It has occured to me that the families of the victims have little answers from LE in regards to to details of this case. What if they have referred to the Crime Map and the Monthly Stat Reports and are confused by it? Would they ask LE to clarify it? Would LE clarify it? It could mean something to someone someday.
I highly doubt the victim's families are looking to the crime map for answers.

While they may not get all the details of the case they are given much more information than the public.
 
  • #232
I highly doubt the victim's families are looking to the crime map for answers.

While they may not get all the details of the case they are given much more information than the public.

You could be right. I suspect the family still has lingering questions and limited information. Maybe the family could include the extended family who have not received any details from LE or the immediate family members. Maybe they have stumbled upon it. Maybe they will never stumble upon WS either.

The data appears to be just a piece of useless information and I find it frustrating.
 
  • #233
You could be right. I suspect the family still has lingering questions and limited information. Maybe the family could include the extended family who have not received any details from LE or the immediate family members. Maybe they have stumbled upon it. Maybe they will never stumble upon WS either.

The data appears to be just a piece of useless information and I find it frustrating.

Yes... but to put it in proper perspective, even if it were 100% correct to the best of LE's current knowledge, it probably still wouldn't offer anything new. 3 murdered. In Calgary.
 
  • #234
I highly doubt the victim's families are looking to the crime map for answers.

While they may not get all the details of the case they are given much more information than the public.

I don't think LE would appreciate you accusing them of having contempt for the general public. They worked long and hard in the heat at the landfills, and deserve more respect than that.

See how that works? Bizarre.
 
  • #235
Yes... but to put it in proper perspective, even if it were 100% correct to the best of LE's current knowledge, it probably still wouldn't offer anything new. 3 murdered. In Calgary.

I see it differently. If the stats and map were correct would it not confirm that the 3 were murdered in the home and not elsewhere? If the answer is yes, that could be a question the family has wondered. If it was not in the Parkhill home and in Airdrie or some other location it may shed light on possible future searches.
 
  • #236
I see it differently. If the stats and map were correct would it not confirm that the 3 were murdered in the home and not elsewhere? If the answer is yes, that could be a question the family has wondered. If it was not in the Parkhill home and in Airdrie or some other location it may shed light on possible future searches.

Yes... and that has been my point all along. If they don't know where one or more of the murders occurred, how do you accurately report it to everyone's satisfaction? It's one of the many reasonable explanations as to why the discrepancies.

We can assume any theories LE has regarding crimescene locations, or dump locations have been searched.
 
  • #237
Yes... and that has been my point all along. If they don't know where one or more of the murders occurred, how do you accurately report it to everyone's satisfaction? It's one of the many reasonable explanations as to why the discrepancies.

We can assume any theories LE has regarding crimescene locations, or dump locations have been searched.

Good point. This only leads me to question other presumptions we have in this case. I wonder how solid the evidence needs to be as to where the cause of death and time of death took place in order to connect murder to the accused, considering the fact that they have no bodies.
 
  • #238
Good point. This only leads me to question other presumptions we have in this case. I wonder how solid the evidence needs to be as to where the cause of death and time of death took place in order to connect murder to the accused, considering the fact that they have no bodies.
Thus the use of the phrases, "no smoking gun" and "preponderance of the evidence". There may simply be a large amount of evidence from various locations, that when looked at in its entirety, would reasonably point to the conclusions LE arrived at. They may not be able to prove *where* one of the victims was murdered, thus the 2 on the crime map and lack of location data, but can likely prove that the individual is deceased, and somehow connected to the accused.

It's difficult to interpret the strength of the evidence. No plea, or plea deal yet... does that mean the evidence could be challenged, or is it negotiating strategy? Could charges be abruptly stayed, as in the Vader case? Is the evidence incomplete, and pointing at the wrong suspect?

This is part of the overall debate of publication bans. Does it help create a fair trial? Does it allow for technicalities in the system for the guilty to abuse? Does it keep the public unfairly ignorant to issues that affects it? Does it undermine a free and democratic society? If the public is paying, do they simply have a right to the information immediately?
 
  • #239
Thus the use of the phrases, "no smoking gun" and "preponderance of the evidence". There may simply be a large amount of evidence from various locations, that when looked at in its entirety, would reasonably point to the conclusions LE arrived at. They may not be able to prove *where* one of the victims was murdered, thus the 2 on the crime map and lack of location data, but can likely prove that the individual is deceased, and somehow connected to the accused.

It's difficult to interpret the strength of the evidence. No plea, or plea deal yet... does that mean the evidence could be challenged, or is it negotiating strategy? Could charges be abruptly stayed, as in the Vader case? Is the evidence incomplete, and pointing at the wrong suspect?

This is part of the overall debate of publication bans. Does it help create a fair trial? Does it allow for technicalities in the system for the guilty to abuse? Does it keep the public unfairly ignorant to issues that affects it? Does it undermine a free and democratic society? If the public is paying, do they simply have a right to the information immediately?
The question is, does the public's right to know supersede the right's of the victim's and accused?

There are three main reasons for publication bans in Canadian trials. The first is to keep eventual jury members unbiased. In adult cases, this type of ban usually covers only pre-trials, not trials, and so doesn’t especially affect the right of the public to know how justice is served.

The second reason is to protect sexual assault victims from having their histories and violations dissected in public. It’s a provision that victims’ rights organizations fought long and hard for, since sexual crimes have often shamed the victim even more than the accused.

The last goal of legal anonymity, as set out in the Youth Criminal Justice Act, is to give young people a chance to escape the shadow of early mistakes.

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/globe-...me-has-passed/article21808611/?service=mobile

The largest issue affecting Canadian media is the ban against electronic recording devices.

Supporters of greater camera access usually offer some variation on these arguments:

*Most Canadians can't attend courts in person.

*TV is the main source of news for most people.

*Witnesses will be more likely to tell the truth when cameras are there.

*Lawyers will be better prepared.

*Televised trials educate the public and show differences between the U.S. and Canadian legal systems.

*The whole trial process is more open to public scrutiny.
-----

Opponents of camera access have their own list of concerns:

*Witnesses could be reluctant to come forward if cameras are present.

*Lawyers could grandstand for the cameras.

*Jurors could feel pressure.

*The media would focus on sensational cases or testimony.

*Stress on trial participants would increase.

*Invasion of privacy in sensitive cases.

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/cameras-in-the-courts-1.869497
-----

The argument comes down to rights, application of the judicial process, and the Charter:

Media appeals of camera access denials are based on the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Section 2 (b) guarantees, among other things, "freedom of the press and other media of communication."

That right is not absolute. Section 1 of the charter says that all freedoms spelled out in Section 2 are guaranteed "subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society."

The case law has developed to the point that the right to a fair trial does not trump the media's freedom of expression. Now both rights are given equal status.

The Supreme Court has also ruled that a publication ban should only be ordered when it's "necessary in order to prevent a real and substantial risk to the fairness of the trial."

Supporters of camera access point out there is already legal protection prohibiting the identification of young persons and victims of sexual assault. Access advocates say dealing with sensitive situations with blanket bans on camera access, rather than allowing judges to rule on them on a case by case basis, amounts to a blackout that should not be allowed to stand.

-----

In the end, it is up to the individual Judge as to what happens in his/her courtroom. Lawyers on both sides and the media have the right to argue for or against a publication ban for each case. Like all matters before the court, they can present evidence and use previous rulings as precident in their arguments, but ultimately the final decision rests in the Judges hands.

As a side note; I personally see the circus antics of American media, presenting evidence and publicly vetting victims, witnesses and suspects alike, deeply disturbing. Trials should take place in a court room... Not on TV.
 
  • #240
^^
When does the publication ban go into effect? Is the application processed before the preliminary hearing? Does this case fit the criteria?
 
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