Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #20

[stan laurel]

I was thinking freezer as well. I suspect the house was filthy and contaminated, I can just imagine the living conditions could be that of a condemned home and if so the remains could have been scattered and rotted throughout the home.

If the children still lived in the home I can not understand how they slipped thru the cracks of child welfare.

This story in relation to this thread... Why did LE reveal these disturbing facts? If LE has forensic confirmation regarding the L's and NO but will not say where or how they have confirmed they were murdered or if there was blood/DNA belonging to the victims while reasoning that they can't reveal certain details of evidence because it is before the courts.... but in this case (Lisa Mitchell), damning evidence has been publicized within hours of an arrest. I just do not understand the logic.

apparently her body was removed in a small packing crate.

as for why quick to report details and to not report details,, well, Parkhill vs Ogden.

 

[news.talk]

apparently her body was removed in a small packing crate.

as for why quick to report details and to not report details,, well, Parkhill vs Ogden.

Stan, perhaps the lack of reporting has something to do with protecting a fragile case - i.e. No bodies, so more room for Defense strategy on technical grounds?

In the Ogden case, they have a body in the house where the suspect resides, so more of a slam dunk, thus more information released?

JMHO.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

Stan, perhaps the lack of reporting has something to do with protecting a fragile case - i.e. No bodies, so more room for Defense strategy on technical grounds?

In the Ogden case, they have a body in the house where the suspect resides, so more of a slam dunk, this more information released?

JMHO.

Could it also be timing? Suspect in custody, not formally charged, vs. ongoing investigation, suspect loose... then no more details after formal charges?

 

[LoisLane]

apparently her body was removed in a small packing crate.

as for why quick to report details and to not report details,, well, Parkhill vs Ogden.

I wish that it were true that the sociological model and status/class of individuals and communities were given equal attention. I do not believe there is transparency here. As much as others will argue your comment I think you have it. Thanks for making the point.

I was reading the CPS FB comments for the Mitchell case and the family has been commenting and answering a couple questions. The person who told reporters about the tupperware container made a comment that he does not believe the container was used to store the human remains. I will find the link and post it.

Here is the comment on the CPS page:

"NP: Where she was found hasn't been confirmed. I took the picture of them removing a tupperware container from the home. I thought it was the children at first. I don't believe that she was stored in it. Though I'm glad the kids are well I never expected such a thing and this is just as horrific."
https://www.facebook.com/CalgaryPolice?ref=ts&fref=ts

 

[news.talk]

I wish that it were true that the sociological model and status/class of individuals and communities were given equal attention. I do not believe there is transparency here. As much as others will argue your comment I think you have it. Thanks for making the point.

I was reading the CPS FB comments for the Mitchell case and the family has been commenting and answering a couple questions. The women who told reporters about the tupperware container made a comment that she does not believe the container was used to store the human remains. I will find the link and post it.

Here is the comment on the CPS page:

"NP: Where she was found hasn't been confirmed. I took the picture of them removing a tupperware container from the home. I thought it was the children at first. I don't believe that she was stored in it. Though I'm glad the kids are well I never expected such a thing and this is just as horrific."
https://www.facebook.com/CalgaryPolice?ref=ts&fref=ts

Unfortunately, we are unable to properly assess the investigative proceedures and whether their efforts were equally applied, until the matter is before the courts.

While I would never presume to judge every officers job performance, I can speak to the ones I have witnessed personally. There is bound to be some prejudice amongst people bearing human DNA, with or without their cognition, but for the most part every case is deeply personal - regardless of the victim's socio-economic status. For a Detective, there is nothing more haunting, than the open case of a missing person or homicide victim. They look into the eyes of their loved ones and have to answer for their progress on the case, and I don't know one Officer that is unaffected by those encounters. They stare at the photos and pour over the case files, during family dinners and as they drift off to sleep. Each and every case is deeply personal as they see their own family staring back from the pages. They work on open cases long after they retire, deliver flowers to gravesites with their own children in tow, and say prayers with their loved ones on anniversaries and birthdays.

Whether they lived in Ogden, Mount Royal or had no fixed address, every victim is a person deserving of justice. Are there some Officers that are callous and hard, making off-colour remarks and cavalier jokes? Yes. It is a coping mechanism for some. Is there the occasional idiot that doesn't deserve their shield? Absolutely. After knowing these people so intimately, and watching the effort they do put into these cases, I just cannot agree to the generalization that the department as a whole operates with such bias predisposition.

 

[stan laurel]

Unfortunately, we are unable to properly assess the investigative proceedures and whether their efforts were equally applied, until the matter is before the courts.

While I would never presume to judge every officers job performance, I can speak to the ones I have witnessed personally. There is bound to be some prejudice amongst people bearing human DNA, with or without their cognition, but for the most part every case is deeply personal - regardless of the victim's socio-economic status. For a Detective, there is nothing more haunting, than the open case of a missing person or homicide victim. They look into the eyes of their loved ones and have to answer for their progress on the case, and I don't know one Officer that is unaffected by those encounters. They stare at the photos and pour over the case files, during family dinners and as they drift off to sleep. Each and every case is deeply personal as they see their own family staring back from the pages. They work on open cases long after they retire, deliver flowers to gravesites with their own children in tow, and say prayers with their loved ones on anniversaries and birthdays.

Whether they lived in Ogden, Mount Royal or had no fixed address, every victim is a person deserving of justice. Are there some Officers that are callous and hard, making off-colour remarks and cavalier jokes? Yes. It is a coping mechanism for some. Is there the occasional idiot that doesn't deserve their shield? Absolutely. After knowing these people so intimately, and watching the effort they do put into these cases, I just cannot agree to the generalization that the department as a whole operates with such bias predisposition.

strongly disagree

 

[news.talk]

strongly disagree

Fair enough. Why?

 

[deugirtni]

I'm sorry, I'm not getting it. This woman was reported missing way back over 2 years ago in November 2012 after being missing since October 2012.. case handed over to homicide (I think that was what the reporter was *trying* to state) in January 2013... but yet... the home was not searched until December 2014 (2 years later)?? Is that what I'm hearing/reading?? Is that possible??

I'm not familiar with neighbourhoods in Calgary or Alberta.. are you saying the cases were handled differently because of the socio-economic factors between the 2 neighbourhoods/2 sets of families??

As far as what LE have stated in one case in comparison to the other.. both had suspects/accuseds.. but yet LE gave up more information on one case than the other.. to me that isn't a socio-economic thing, both accuseds will have lawyers... but more of a thing that they actually had 'facts' to release in one case, and more 'circumstantial evidence' in the other. A 'fact' is something that can't really be disputed in court and so what harm in stating a fact, whereas giving away circumstantial evidence would be tipping their hats, risking their case, and potentially leading the public to believe things about the accused that aren't 'facts', but a collection of circumstantial findings, still needing to be proven. MOO

 

[news.talk]

I'm sorry, I'm not getting it. This woman was reported missing way back over 2 years ago in November 2012 after being missing since October 2012.. case handed over to homicide (I think that was what the reporter was *trying* to state) in January 2013... but yet... the home was not searched until December 2014 (2 years later)?? Is that what I'm hearing/reading?? Is that possible??

I'm not familiar with neighbourhoods in Calgary or Alberta.. are you saying the cases were handled differently because of the socio-economic factors between the 2 neighbourhoods/2 sets of families??

As far as what LE have stated in one case in comparison to the other.. both had suspects/accuseds.. but yet LE gave up more information on one case than the other.. to me that isn't a socio-economic thing, both accuseds will have lawyers... but more of a thing that they actually had 'facts' to release in one case, and more 'circumstantial evidence' in the other. A 'fact' is something that can't really be disputed in court and so what harm in stating a fact, whereas giving away circumstantial evidence would be tipping their hats, risking their case, and potentially leading the public to believe things about the accused that aren't 'facts', but a collection of circumstantial findings, still needing to be proven. MOO

I would have to defer to more legally inclined minds, but would the police not require a search warrant to search a home without the consent from the owner? Additionally, if the owner refused, I would imagine they would require more probable cause for said warrant other than a refusal.

Do we have any information on where the remains were located in the home and in what state? If they were outside of the plain sight purview, even if officers were in the home, they would require a probable cause warrant for further investigation.

As we all know from the Liknes/O'Brien case, there needs to be *some* evidence for LE to investigate. Unless I am mistaken, there were not many leads or forensic evidence to suggest homicide other than their suspicions.

 

[LoisLane]

I'm sorry, I'm not getting it. This woman was reported missing way back over 2 years ago in November 2012 after being missing since October 2012.. case handed over to homicide (I think that was what the reporter was *trying* to state) in January 2013... but yet... the home was not searched until December 2014 (2 years later)?? Is that what I'm hearing/reading?? Is that possible??

I'm not familiar with neighbourhoods in Calgary or Alberta.. are you saying the cases were handled differently because of the socio-economic factors between the 2 neighbourhoods/2 sets of families??

As far as what LE have stated in one case in comparison to the other.. both had suspects/accuseds.. but yet LE gave up more information on one case than the other.. to me that isn't a socio-economic thing, both accuseds will have lawyers... but more of a thing that they actually had 'facts' to release in one case, and more 'circumstantial evidence' in the other. A 'fact' is something that can't really be disputed in court and so what harm in stating a fact, whereas giving away circumstantial evidence would be tipping their hats, risking their case, and potentially leading the public to believe things about the accused that aren't 'facts', but a collection of circumstantial findings, still needing to be proven. MOO

Another point worth considering is that the Parkhill home may not have the DNA evidence, blood, brain matter to prove homicide has taken place at the home. If it did they could have said so as they have in the Mitchell case.

As for the search warrant the Mitchell case was brought back to the public's attention just recently as an unsolved missing persons. I wonder if a tip came in to allow them to search the home and how much weight the tips or new evidence had to allow a search of a home. Were they tipped that there was human remains in the house?

It boggles my mind that the husband may not have allowed LE to search the home when his wife was reported missing. If he was not cooperative that should have been a huge red flag. IMO. There could be ways around this to allow the police to search the home. One example could be that if the home was a rental they could have contacted the landlord to obtain access to the property.

Maybe the remains were brought into the home after a length of time?

 

[LoisLane]

I would have to defer to more legally inclined minds, but would the police not require a search warrant to search a home without the consent from the owner? Additionally, if the owner refused, I would imagine they would require more probable cause for said warrant other than a refusal.

Do we have any information on where the remains were located in the home and in what state? If they were outside of the plain sight purview, even if officers were in the home, they would require a probable cause warrant for further investigation.

As we all know from the Liknes/O'Brien case, there needs to be *some* evidence for LE to investigate. Unless I am mistaken, there were not many leads or forensic evidence to suggest homicide other than their suspicions.

Is it the owner or the resident that the police would need to obtain a search warrant? I wonder if the home was a rental and if so can police approach the landlord for access? If in the beginning when LM was reported missing LE would have had valid reasons to search the house for anything out of the ordinary or clues she may have left behind. I would imagine some clues would not have been in plain sight and so investigators could have searched more thoroughly in the home. If the husband was not cooperating that is disturbing. I guess the fact that it was Turner Valley that handled the file in the beginning prevented them from entering the Calgary home. It seems very strange to me that the Turner Valley department would not include the missing persons residence as part of the investigation.

 

[LoisLane]

Unfortunately, we are unable to properly assess the investigative proceedures and whether their efforts were equally applied, until the matter is before the courts.

While I would never presume to judge every officers job performance, I can speak to the ones I have witnessed personally. There is bound to be some prejudice amongst people bearing human DNA, with or without their cognition, but for the most part every case is deeply personal - regardless of the victim's socio-economic status. For a Detective, there is nothing more haunting, than the open case of a missing person or homicide victim. They look into the eyes of their loved ones and have to answer for their progress on the case, and I don't know one Officer that is unaffected by those encounters. They stare at the photos and pour over the case files, during family dinners and as they drift off to sleep. Each and every case is deeply personal as they see their own family staring back from the pages. They work on open cases long after they retire, deliver flowers to gravesites with their own children in tow, and say prayers with their loved ones on anniversaries and birthdays.

Whether they lived in Ogden, Mount Royal or had no fixed address, every victim is a person deserving of justice. Are there some Officers that are callous and hard, making off-colour remarks and cavalier jokes? Yes. It is a coping mechanism for some. Is there the occasional idiot that doesn't deserve their shield? Absolutely. After knowing these people so intimately, and watching the effort they do put into these cases, I just cannot agree to the generalization that the department as a whole operates with such bias predisposition.

I am sure that officers are committed to cases and put in extra time well after they punch-out at work. As you say the officers seem to spend a lot of their unpaid time pursuing unsolved cases and grieving victims. Maybe the costs and budgets within the investigations department hinders the efforts of said police officers.

I also believe strongly that the attention for the Liknes-O'Brien file would not have happened if Nathan was not involved. The impact of the missing grandson along with the public's interest and the media attention all played a part in the efforts made by police. I do not doubt that for a second. What I wonder is if the socio-economic status of the family connects to similar citizens. Is it possible that the middle-class have the education, skill, and power to be heard and take action and make an impact and so they gain more support and accountability from LE?

 

[lynck]

Stan, perhaps the lack of reporting has something to do with protecting a fragile case - i.e. No bodies, so more room for Defense strategy on technical grounds?

In the Ogden case, they have a body in the house where the suspect resides, so more of a slam dunk, thus more information released?

JMHO.

I share this same opinion. I mean honestly, if you were prosecuting someone for 3 murders would you want to lay out all your evidence all over the media and internet for analysis? In today's day and age, you'd think it would help law enforcement, but by the same token it could also help the defense. Crowdsourced justice. Could be good or bad, but most likely end up bad once a few people lose their minds and turn into vigilante's. JMO

 

[LoisLane]

Do we know if the police had ever searched the Mitchell home at the beginning of the investigation? The body is thought to have been kept in the home for the last two years and when asked why the people and visitors in the home would not have known that the reply was that there are circumstances in the home that will come out in court that would have prevented the guests from knowing. Like what? Could it be the same circumstances that would have prevented LE from knowing? Was the home immaculate or a mess? Did it smell? Is there a trap door beneath the floor? In the walls?

What about this case? Could it be at all possible that the Airdrie or Parkhill home could conceal bodies? I wonder if the Parkhill home is set for demolition yet.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...kept-in-home-for-2-years-police-say-1.2863151

"Police will not say why Mitchell's children and visitors did not notice a body in the home in the two years since her disappearance.

"There are some circumstances with where — within the house — that will be revealed during the court process that will answer that question," said Sgt. John Hebert with the Calgary Police Service."

 

[news.talk]

Do we know if the police had ever searched the Mitchell home at the beginning of the investigation? The body is thought to have been kept in the home for the last two years and when asked why the people and visitors in the home would not have known that the reply was that there are circumstances in the home that will come out in court that would have prevented the guests from knowing. Like what? Could it be the same circumstances that would have prevented LE from knowing? Was the home immaculate or a mess? Did it smell? Is there a trap door beneath the floor? In the walls?

What about this case? Could it be at all possible that the Airdrie or Parkhill home could conceal bodies? I wonder if the Parkhill home is set for demolition yet.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...kept-in-home-for-2-years-police-say-1.2863151

"Police will not say why Mitchell's children and visitors did not notice a body in the home in the two years since her disappearance.

"There are some circumstances with where — within the house — that will be revealed during the court process that will answer that question," said Sgt. John Hebert with the Calgary Police Service."

The first thought I had, was that the body or body parts were in a deep freeze concealed.

 

[news.talk]

I am sure that officers are committed to cases and put in extra time well after they punch-out at work. As you say the officers seem to spend a lot of their unpaid time pursuing unsolved cases and grieving victims. Maybe the costs and budgets within the investigations department hinders the efforts of said police officers.

I also believe strongly that the attention for the Liknes-O'Brien file would not have happened if Nathan was not involved. The impact of the missing grandson along with the public's interest and the media attention all played a part in the efforts made by police. I do not doubt that for a second. What I wonder is if the socio-economic status of the family connects to similar citizens. Is it possible that the middle-class have the education, skill, and power to be heard and take action and make an impact and so they gain more support and accountability from LE?

I absolutely agree that NO was the primary reason that the case received so much attention. The mere fact that an AA was issued played significantly on the case.

Calgary is reported to have upwards of 3,300 missing persons reports per year. Roughly two thirds of that number are youth. It is unclear how many of them end up being homicide victims.

One recent case of a missing persons report that ended up a homicide was that of Colton Crowshoe; his body was was discovered shortly after the Liknes' and NO were confirmed dead. His family allege that the the victim was not treated equally due to racial profiling. They even compared the response of the NO case with that of CC, stating that their son was given less attention than NO because he was First Nations. LE countered that argument:

"Those things that might elevate the risk for us are things like mental and physical health issues, the very old the very young, those who can’t care for themselves. Those are the ones we really have a strong focus on,”

“Those folks who have the ability to care for themselves, they get reduced in priority.”

Family members also claimed that the victim was "roughed up" when detained following an arrest shortly before he went missing. While the family never filed a formal complaint against the CPS, the Alberta Serious Incident Response Team stepped in and opened up an investigation. The Calgary Police Service also proactively requested an independent review into previous interactions between officers and Colton Crowshoe, as well as the missing person investigation. The findings of both will be made public.

Whether socio-economic factors were at play in the above example is still in question. I personally think it had more to do with the fact that the victim was a youth - part of the two-thirds that go missing on their own volition. The fact that he had just been arrested, could be attributed to the fact that many youth in trouble with the law, go into hiding for one reason or another.

Does socio-economic factors play in when dealing with missing persons? Yes, but not always in a nefarious regard. Often it is because each case has to be weighed against itself for factors relating to why the person is missing and the right of the individual to be away from family and friends. Are they a minor child unable to care for themselves or are they a troubled youth off the grid? The fact that the Liknes' and NO were white, middle class does not IMHO, factor in as much than the fact that a five year old child was missing from a presumably bloody crime scene.

 

[LoisLane]

I thought deep freeze at first. I can't get past the possibility that LM's body could have been in the deep freeze of her own home. I hope that LE puts freezers on the list of things to check in future investigations. If a family is concerned for a missing member that resides in the same home the police should have no problem asking to search the residence and it should be an important step in procedure. I imagine this case would have been solved right away if that was the case.

Maybe LE should check the freezer and fridge where Shannon Burgess resides to see if anything in them would lead them in finding her. Maybe LE would find something that a family member would not notice or think twice about.

Think of all the information and evidence that is contained in freezers and refrigerators. Some people stash money and jewelry in packages marked liver, passports, some stash marijuana and other products to keep them fresh and contain the scent, meat and bread and perishables that has been marked with a best before date could be telling as to if the homeowner or missing person perhaps went grocery shopping.

I hope LE analyzed the freezers and it's contents at the Garland property and the Liknes home.

 

[LoisLane]

I absolutely agree that NO was the primary reason that the case received so much attention. The mere fact that an AA was issued played significantly on the case.

Calgary is reported to have upwards of 3,300 missing persons reports per year. Roughly two thirds of that number are youth. It is unclear how many of them end up being homicide victims.

One recent case of a missing persons report that ended up a homicide was that of Colton Crowshoe; his body was was discovered shortly after the Liknes' and NO were confirmed dead. His family allege that the the victim was not treated equally due to racial profiling. They even compared the response of the NO case with that of CC, stating that their son was given less attention than NO because he was First Nations. LE countered that argument:



Family members also claimed that the victim was "roughed up" when detained following an arrest shortly before he went missing. While the family never filed a formal complaint against the CPS, the Alberta Serious Incident Response Team stepped in and opened up an investigation. The Calgary Police Service also proactively requested an independent review into previous interactions between officers and Colton Crowshoe, as well as the missing person investigation. The findings of both will be made public.

Whether socio-economic factors were at play in the above example is still in question. I personally think it had more to do with the fact that the victim was a youth - part of the two-thirds that go missing on their own volition. The fact that he had just been arrested, could be attributed to the fact that many youth in trouble with the law, go into hiding for one reason or another.

Does socio-economic factors play in when dealing with missing persons? Yes, but not always in a nefarious regard. Often it is because each case has to be weighed against itself for factors relating to why the person is missing and the right of the individual to be away from family and friends. Are they a minor child unable to care for themselves or are they a troubled youth off the grid? The fact that the Liknes' and NO were white, middle class does not IMHO, factor in as much than the fact that a five year old child was missing from a presumably bloody crime scene.

I do recall the seriousness of events that are within the timeframe around Colton Crowshoe's disappearance and murder. While the family never had to make the formal complaint they did reach out to the media and that is why the Serious Incident Response Team stepped up IMO. The fact that he was in police custody and they roughed him up contributed and diminshed the priority of his search. There will be no transparency with his case and the review board IMO.

I will search for the stats similar to what you mentioned in regards to missing people I read a similar article recently or maybe watched a documentary and the recovery results and closed cases was included. I will post it if I can find it.

 

[news.talk]

I do recall the seriousness of events that are within the timeframe around Colton Crowshoe's disappearance and murder. While the family never had to make the formal complaint they did reach out to the media and that is why the Serious Incident Response Team stepped up IMO. The fact that he was in police custody and they roughed him up contributed and diminshed the priority of his search. There will be no transparency with his case and the review board IMO.

I will search for the stats similar to what you mentioned in regards to missing people I read a similar article recently or maybe watched a documentary and the recovery results and closed cases was included. I will post it if I can find it.

Without knowing a problem occured, ASIRT has no way of stepping up to investigate a situation unless a formal complaint is made. Same goes for the Professional Standards Unit. A grieving family sounding off to the media does not help LE or the victim's family. If they had concerns, they should have FIRST filed a complaint with PS or the civilian watchdog - the Police Commission. They didn't. Neither ASIRT or PS was obligated to investigate without a complaint being filed, but they did. Transparency is maintained through the Police Commission, and I have little doubt that our crime reporters will be following up on the outcome.

ETA: With regards to the "roughing up" while in custody - there is CCTV everywhere suspects can be present, in both Processing and at the Remand. If said assault occured, it would have been recorded, IMHO.

 

[LoisLane]

Without knowing a problem occured, ASIRT has no way of stepping up to investigate a situation unless a formal complaint is made. Same goes for the Professional Standards Unit. A grieving family sounding off to the media does not help LE or the victim's family. If they had concerns, they should have FIRST filed a complaint with PS or the civilian watchdog - the Police Commission. They didn't. Neither ASIRT or PS was obligated to investigate without a complaint being filed, but they did. Transparency is maintained through the Police Commission, and I have little doubt that our crime reporters will be following up on the outcome.

ETA: With regards to the "roughing up" while in custody - there is CCTV everywhere suspects can be present, in both Processing and at the Remand. If said assault occured, it would have been recorded, IMHO.

I understand the procedure to filing complaints. I wonder if in the time of grief and anger if the family had the tools to figure that out. The media seemed to be the fastest and easiest option for them to be heard. Possibly they were afraid their complaint would be processed slowly if they had followed the procedure. I think the family did the right thing in light of events and in their time of grief.

I am glad that while in custody CC would have been recorded on camera that will be key in the investigation.