Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #20

[deugirtni]

Yes sillybilly, of course all of those things are possible.. that is exactly my point in fact. For those that profess to know the facts. Many things are possible and none of them have to mean CPS is incompetent.

But it also gives cause for more sleuthing, because the reportst create many more questions, such as, for the people who believe 'the ME' could only have visited Parkhill for one reason only, then why was ME there; and if the trio not murdered at Parkhill, then why was the murder charge irt NO not 1st degree vs 2nd degree; and if not Parkhill, then where? and if somewhere else, are they listed on a different neighbourhood's crime stats? and if LE doesn't have an issue with pinpointing on the 'crime map' that 2 homicides took place at Parkhill in June (we will remember that those 2 pinpoints in Parkhill have been there since then), then why would it be an issue to say so elsewhere, in other reports? and why only 2 instead of 3? and why none instead of 3?

Someone had asked 'how does it relate'. I was responding.

IIRC, indications were of a violent incident having occurred at the Parkhill residence and that one person would be in medical distress. I on't recall LE saying they were all killed there. Is it possible the trio were killed somewhere other than Parkhill/Calgary, and evidence that we aren't privy to and which supports the conclusion they are all deceased was located elsewhere?

Just because we don't have the answer wrt the stats doesn't mean there isn't one or that CPS is incompetent. I'm not saying they are or aren't, but refuse to jump to a conclusion based on what we think we know.

 

[deugirtni]

Yes sillybilly, of course all of those things are possible.. that is exactly my point in fact. For those that profess to know the facts. Many things are possible and none of them have to mean CPS is incompetent.

But it also gives cause for more sleuthing, because the reportst create many more questions, such as, for the people who believe 'the ME' could only have visited Parkhill for one reason only, then why was ME there; and if the trio not murdered at Parkhill, then why was the murder charge irt NO not 1st degree vs 2nd degree; and if not Parkhill, then where? and if somewhere else, are they listed on a different neighbourhood's crime stats? and if LE doesn't have an issue with pinpointing on the 'crime map' that 2 homicides took place at Parkhill in June (we will remember that those 2 pinpoints in Parkhill have been there since then), then why would it be an issue to say so elsewhere, in other reports? and why only 2 instead of 3? and why none instead of 3?

Someone had asked 'how does it relate'. I was responding.

IIRC, indications were of a violent incident having occurred at the Parkhill residence and that one person would be in medical distress. I on't recall LE saying they were all killed there. Is it possible the trio were killed somewhere other than Parkhill/Calgary, and evidence that we aren't privy to and which supports the conclusion they are all deceased was located elsewhere?

Just because we don't have the answer wrt the stats doesn't mean there isn't one or that CPS is incompetent. I'm not saying they are or aren't, but refuse to jump to a conclusion based on what we think we know.

 

[deugirtni]

This was kind of interesting, thought it might potentially interest others. A documentary on psychopaths.

http://www.cbc.ca/doczone/episodes/the-psychopath-next-door

 

[Lalalacasbah]

IIRC, indications were of a violent incident having occurred at the Parkhill residence and that one person would be in medical distress. I on't recall LE saying they were all killed there. Is it possible the trio were killed somewhere other than Parkhill/Calgary, and evidence that we aren't privy to and which supports the conclusion they are all deceased was located elsewhere?

Just because we don't have the answer wrt the stats doesn't mean there isn't one or that CPS is incompetent. I'm not saying they are or aren't, but refuse to jump to a conclusion based on what we think we know.

No, not the incompetent word!! lol, my whole point about the stats not adding up is that maybe LE doesn't want this knowledge public about the number of homicides and where the trio were killed in relation to this case.

The fact that the stat info is inconsistent plays into the wondering about how many homicides occurred where (Parkhill vs Airdrie vs ??)

 

[LoisLane]

This was kind of interesting, thought it might potentially interest others. A documentary on psychopaths.

http://www.cbc.ca/doczone/episodes/the-psychopath-next-door

The CBC is sure interesting these days. I wonder if the "Q" host fits this profile. I was catching up on a few Fifth Estate episodes last night. I noticed that Jian has hired the same lawyer that was involved in that Poole Police Reid Technique case. Very disturbing that the Reid technique was used on witnesses. At the same time it seems like a pretty easy approach to incorporate when asking questions. I think it would still be used across Canada including Calgary for all different levels of crime.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

The CBC is sure interesting these days. I wonder if the "Q" host fits this profile. I was catching up on a few Fifth Estate episodes last night. I noticed that Jian has hired the same lawyer that was involved in that Poole Police Reid Technique case. Very disturbing that the Reid technique was used on witnesses. At the same time it seems like a pretty easy approach to incorporate when asking questions. I think it would still be used across Canada including Calgary for all different levels of crime.

Jian and Bill Cosby should get a 2 for 1 lawyer deal! So tired of these guys abusing their celebrity and power, so many out there. Definitely probably sociopaths if not psychopaths.

 

[Sillybilly]

What conclusion are we jumping to? I think it is simple. The stats are open and will be updated after trial and a conviction.

I was responding to deugertni's post immediately before mine where they said:

We are told there is no place like Calgary, that Calgary's Police Service give absolutely no indication of any of the types of issues and potential problems that other police forces in larger cities within Canada seem to experience at times, that CPS are competent, there is no reason not to take their word as fact even when it isn't, and yet we see what have to be glaring errors in these reports. Not just in one of the reports, but in all of them, and not just the same error in each of the different types of reports, but different errors in each separate report. And not only that, but one of the downloads links to a completely different document than it states. These reports are displayed publicly for the world to see and they contain very important information regarding the things CPS are in-the-know about. It seems CPS are the keepers of these important stats, which are shared across Canada and combined with other police services to create our country's crime stats. One might presume that in light of all of that, CPS may wish to give a more impessive image of their competence to the public.

If that's not a strong insinuation that CPS is incompetent, I'm not sure what is.

 

[LoisLane]

I was responding to deugertni's post immediately before mine where they said:

We are told there is no place like Calgary, that Calgary's Police Service give absolutely no indication of any of the types of issues and potential problems that other police forces in larger cities within Canada seem to experience at times, that CPS are competent, there is no reason not to take their word as fact even when it isn't, and yet we see what have to be glaring errors in these reports. Not just in one of the reports, but in all of them, and not just the same error in each of the different types of reports, but different errors in each separate report. And not only that, but one of the downloads links to a completely different document than it states. These reports are displayed publicly for the world to see and they contain very important information regarding the things CPS are in-the-know about. It seems CPS are the keepers of these important stats, which are shared across Canada and combined with other police services to create our country's crime stats. One might presume that in light of all of that, CPS may wish to give a more impessive image of their competence to the public.

If that's not a strong insinuation that CPS is incompetent, I'm not sure what is.

I think D. has valid concerns and can question the methods of released information. I personally do not consider the term competence/incompetence in such a negative light. I feel like we do not need to defend or make excuses for the errors between two reports. The difference between the two reports clearly demonstrates inaccuracy to which anyone is free to question the validity/purpose of such reports. If it is not important to the creators to rectify or be accountable for what is posted publicly what other reason is there for not adjusting the reports?

Calgary is a growing city with all kids of criminal problems. CPS has been very busy this year compared to previous years and like any growing company that includes growing pains and mistakes. They are not perfect and we have every right to question and be skeptical of people and organizations in high levels of power, it does not mean that we write them off and have disrespect for them. I think it is the citizens responsibility to question discrepancies and recognize accountability. In the grand scheme of things this error in the reporting could be considered minor but it is still incorrect reporting. For whatever reason or excuse the relayers of this information have or are willing to be accountable for is up to them to determine the importance and whether to act on it. If we have many little mistakes or discrepancies and no accountability or correction what could that add up to and what is that demonstrating?

 

[Sillybilly]

I think D. has valid concerns and can question the methods of released information. I personally do not consider the term competence/incompetence in such a negative light. I feel like we do not need to defend or make excuses for the errors between two reports. The difference between the two reports clearly demonstrates inaccuracy to which anyone is free to question the validity/purpose of such reports. If it is not important to the creators to rectify or be accountable for what is posted publicly what other reason is there for not adjusting the reports?

Calgary is a growing city with all kids of criminal problems. CPS has been very busy this year compared to previous years and like any growing company that includes growing pains and mistakes. They are not perfect and we have every right to question and be skeptical of people and organizations in high levels of power, it does not mean that we write them off and have disrespect for them. I think it is the citizens responsibility to question discrepancies and recognize accountability. In the grand scheme of things this error in the reporting could be considered minor but it is still incorrect reporting. For whatever reason or excuse the relayers of this information have or are willing to be accountable for is up to them to determine the importance and whether to act on it. If we have many little mistakes or discrepancies and no accountability or correction what could that add up to and what is that demonstrating?

It’s fine that people are questioning the stats and want accountability, but it’s the generalizations related to all CPS that bugs the hell out of me. In all my years of working with an exemplary track record, it burns my chaps to think that if someone else in the company made an error in a stat report, every professional in the entire company could have been cast in the same light. I doubt whoever compiles stats for CPS was part of the homicide team. Maybe it’s some newbie or other poor clerk that, like us, doesn’t have a clue where the Ls and NO were killed either and didn’t know how to enter the stats to reflect it accurately.

I worked at an executive level for many years because of certain skills that I brought to the organizations. Did I know how to order postage stamps or elastics? Nope, but if some clerk screwed up on ordering postage stamps and elastics, I sure wouldn’t expect myself and anyone else in the organization to be classed is unprofessional or incompetent based on someone else’s poor performance.

Folks can question the stats all they want, but when it comes to making statements painting the whole CPS force, including an experienced homicide team and the chief as possibly incompetent (which I interpret as “a negative light&#8221, yeah I take issue with that. IF we find out down the road that there was incompetence on behalf of the homicide team or the chief, then I’ll have a problem with the investigation.

 

[YYC Lady]

Ok, but I doubt very much that it's the lead detectives in the case inputting this data? Also, while I can understand how some posters on WS feel like this is a big deal, I personally don't think these reports are meant to be a be all end all of accuracy. Is it frustrating? Sure. Is it a sign the entire CPS is incompetent and this case was botched and now an accused child killer is going to get let off? IMO, no.

To me, this case is as heartbreaking as it is high profile. For a time, it was making news sites around the world. Whether anybody agrees with me or not, I feel for this reason, along with the fact an innocent five year old was murdered, the police and crown made extra efforts to ensure this case is tightly guarded and thoroughly investigated. Maybe that makes me naive, but it is what I choose to believe, as a calgarian and as a mother.

 

[LoisLane]

It’s fine that people are questioning the stats and want accountability, but it’s the generalizations related to all CPS that bugs the hell out of me. In all my years of working with an exemplary track record, it burns my chaps to think that if someone else in the company made an error in a stat report, every professional in the entire company could have been cast in the same light. I doubt whoever compiles stats for CPS wasn't part of the homicide team. Maybe it’s some newbie or other poor clerk that, like us, doesn’t have a clue where the Ls and NO were killed either and didn’t know how to enter the stats to reflect it accurately.

I worked at an executive level for many years because of certain skills that I brought to the organizations. Did I know how to order postage stamps or elastics? Nope, but if some clerk screwed up on ordering postage stamps and elastics, I sure wouldn’t expect myself and anyone else in the organization to be classed is unprofessional or incompetent based on someone else’s poor performance.

Folks can question the stats all they want, but when it comes to making statements painting the whole CPS force, including an experienced homicide team and the chief as possibly incompetent (which I interpret as “a negative light&#8221, yeah I take issue with that. IF we find out down the road that there was incompetence on behalf of the homicide team or the chief, then I’ll have a problem with the investigation.

I understand what you are saying. Every department whether it is administrative or executive or mailroom includes a level of responsibility that they are accountable for. I have worked my way from entry level to top of the chain in a few instances. Pointing out the organizational charts of who has a more important job is a major peeve of mine. Everyone has a job that is important and holds responsibilities and accountabilities. The employee responsible for their job (in this case the crime map and the statistical monthly reports) most likely has no involvement with the homicide case but they do have a responsibility in recording crime stats. If that is the case then why is it such a big deal to adjust the report? The employee has a chain of command as well and if the chain has kinks all the way up then ultimately this will cause problems in the chain and possibly disturb the effectiveness at the top of the chain.

Anyway, I really don't think this report kerfuffel is directly linked to the decision makers/enforcers on this case. I think any reference to the crime maps and statistical reporting is flawed. It is just one flaw that we are privy to and so we can point it out. We may have other questions and discrepancies to point out in the coming months and years.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I am reading about Catie Miller's case as well as posting on her thread here on WS, interesting how LE played her case similar to this one, treating it as a missing persons case to the public while behind the doors it was a homicide investigation early on. This is probably a common strategic move with LE and nothing new, so I think that's what happened with this case as well (BBM).

"The superintendent said although the case moved from a missing persons’ case to a murder quickly, investigators did not tell Miller’s parents, Dr. John Miller and Terry Miller, until this weekend after Johnson’s arrest. Understandably they were “devastated” to hear the news, said Perrin.

"Perrin said the Miller case “transitioned” into a homicide file “early” in the investigation into her disappearance. He said that happened in July, not long after Miller was reported missing by her family on July 21.

"Although the homicide unit was investigating the case, the force had maintained it was a missing-person case and said there was no reason to suspect foul play.

I think they did this to protect the investigation as well, I got the feeling they were possibly surveilling the suspects during this time and waiting for enough evidence to arrest them all these months later.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/metro/...-murder-of-missing-halifax-woman-catie-miller
http://thechronicleherald.ca/metro/...ished’-with-man-charged-in-her-death-dad-says

 

[LoisLane]

I am reading about Catie Miller's case as well as posting on her thread here on WS, interesting how LE played her case similar to this one, treating it as a missing persons case to the public while behind the doors it was a homicide investigation early on. This is probably a common strategic move with LE and nothing new, so I think that's what happened with this case as well (BBM).

"The superintendent said although the case moved from a missing persons’ case to a murder quickly, investigators did not tell Miller’s parents, Dr. John Miller and Terry Miller, until this weekend after Johnson’s arrest. Understandably they were “devastated” to hear the news, said Perrin.

"Perrin said the Miller case “transitioned” into a homicide file “early” in the investigation into her disappearance. He said that happened in July, not long after Miller was reported missing by her family on July 21.

"Although the homicide unit was investigating the case, the force had maintained it was a missing-person case and said there was no reason to suspect foul play.

I think they did this to protect the investigation as well, I got the feeling they were possibly surveilling the suspects during this time and waiting for enough evidence to arrest them all these months later.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/metro/...-murder-of-missing-halifax-woman-catie-miller
http://thechronicleherald.ca/metro/...#8217;-with-man-charged-in-her-death-dad-says

Interesting. I will pop by and take a look. So did the investigators mislead the public during the investigation calling it a missing persons investigation while they had already deemed it a homicide investigation? I wonder how the press conferences by LE were presented.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Interesting. I will pop by and take a look. So did the investigators mislead the public during the investigation calling it a missing persons investigation while they had already deemed it a homicide investigation? I wonder how the press conferences by LE were presented.

As far as I know, they labelled it a missing persons case the whole time until her remains were just recently discovered. Not sure how they found out about the remains (maybe covert assets?).

I'm not sure about the press conferences, haven't gotten that far, but I don't think it was as high-profile case as this one since this one involved little NO and the amber alert, JMO of course. So I'm not sure there were a lot of pressers.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

It’s fine that people are questioning the stats and want accountability, but it’s the generalizations related to all CPS that bugs the hell out of me. In all my years of working with an exemplary track record, it burns my chaps to think that if someone else in the company made an error in a stat report, every professional in the entire company could have been cast in the same light. I doubt whoever compiles stats for CPS wasn't part of the homicide team. Maybe it’s some newbie or other poor clerk that, like us, doesn’t have a clue where the Ls and NO were killed either and didn’t know how to enter the stats to reflect it accurately.

I worked at an executive level for many years because of certain skills that I brought to the organizations. Did I know how to order postage stamps or elastics? Nope, but if some clerk screwed up on ordering postage stamps and elastics, I sure wouldn’t expect myself and anyone else in the organization to be classed is unprofessional or incompetent based on someone else’s poor performance.

Folks can question the stats all they want, but when it comes to making statements painting the whole CPS force, including an experienced homicide team and the chief as possibly incompetent (which I interpret as “a negative light”), yeah I take issue with that. IF we find out down the road that there was incompetence on behalf of the homicide team or the chief, then I’ll have a problem with the investigation.

Soooooo... if you get horrible service or food at a restaurant... you keep going back? It's not the owner's fault... right? If an airplane crashes, do you use the airline? Pilot's fault, not the airline? Systemic problems start at the top.

No one, and I can't believe I have to say this again, has accused LE of incompetence over these reports. Words... in... mouth...

Everyone recognizes there are legitimate reasons that are likely the cause for the minor discrepancies. Some want to make LE aware of it, and have done just that. Should LE be a little more image conscious? Perhaps, but whatever standard of reporting they follow may not have a prescribed policy for this type of situation. Perhaps the concerns raised here will help force the creation of such a policy or category.

 

[Sillybilly]

Soooooo... if you get horrible service or food at a restaurant... you keep going back? It's not the owner's fault... right? If an airplane crashes, do you use the airline? Pilot's fault, not the airline? Systemic problems start at the top.

No one, and I can't believe I have to say this again, has accused LE of incompetence over these reports. Words... in... mouth...

Everyone recognizes there are legitimate reasons that are likely the cause for the minor discrepancies. Some want to make LE aware of it, and have done just that. Should LE be a little more image conscious? Perhaps, but whatever standard of reporting they follow may not have a prescribed policy for this type of situation. Perhaps the concerns raised here will help force the creation of such a policy or category.

I sure wouldn't get bent out of shape if there was a typo on the menu or a non-available menu item, nor would I force change to the restaurant industry as a result.

ETA: If you cant' see where incompetence is insinuated, sorry ... I can't do your reading for you.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

I sure wouldn't get bent out of shape if there was a typo on the menu or a non-available menu item, nor would I force change to the restaurant industry as a result.

The lousy employee example was all yours. Everyday, a business somewhere loses a customer based not on the company, but a lousy representative of that company. That's life.

No one has suggested an industry wide LE change... how hard is a sub-category called "Suspected Homicides" in the Homicides category, that can be reclassified as required?

Is it a big deal? Nope. Is anyone calling the Chief of Police incompetent because of a difficult case to define for a report? Nope... that was all yours too.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

I sure wouldn't get bent out of shape if there was a typo on the menu or a non-available menu item, nor would I force change to the restaurant industry as a result.

ETA: If you cant' see where incompetence is insinuated, sorry ... I can't do your reading for you.

All I read was that LE should be aware that inconsistent public reports can possibly make them look unprofessional or disorganized... I'm sure LE would like to maintain the public confidence. It's a fair criticism. It would also be wise to have accurate records when requesting budget increases etc... again... fair criticism.

I assume Deug will pointedly correct me if I have read that post too thoroughly.

 

[news.talk]

The lousy employee example was all yours. Everyday, a business somewhere loses a customer based not on the company, but a lousy representative of that company. That's life.

No one has suggested an industry wide LE change... how hard is a sub-category called "Suspected Homicides" in the Homicides category, that can be reclassified as required?

Is it a big deal? Nope. Anyone calling the Chief of Police incompetent because of a difficult case to define for a report? Nope... that was all yours too.

How often has there been a necessity for a seperate category for "suspected homicides" in Calgary? This case would bring the total to a whopping three.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

How often has there been a necessity for a seperate category for "suspected homicides" in Calgary? This case would bring the total to a whopping three.

Indeed. If you re-read most of the posts, mine included, everyone has acknowledged this is a rarity, not just in Calgary, but across Canada, and an anomaly in many parts of the world... and thus... probably difficult to classify, especially given the legal constraints LE face in publicly releasing information in Canada.

But classify it, they must. Soooooo... as a simple suggestion... a one liner in a spreadsheet that convicts no one, offends no one, and is lousy employee proof... 'Suspected' was put forward. Perhaps a thesaurus could help for those offended... it's far better than inconsistent numbers.

Again... Perhaps it's time for a policy. I would favor a policy against reading far too much into a criticism... like an accusation of incompetence... when it's not there. A post is more than a single sentence, and requires a full, contextual understanding before replying accurately.