Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 June 2014 - #5

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  • #361
Something has been nagging at me since I first heard about this case and I have to let it out because from what I have seen, nobody else has paid any attention to it or perhaps not noticed.. or perhaps it is just that I'm reading too much in. I don't want to even THINK like this because if it were my child in this situation, I would be devastated, and the last thing I would want to do is to cast even the slightest shadow onto the poor parents. When I watched the video of the parents' plea for the return of their son (I watched it here: http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/missin...-emotional-plea-for-their-superhero-1.1895317), I couldn't help noticing several things:

  1. the seeming lack of emotion from the mother (as another poster has already noticed and mentioned here in this thread); meanwhile, the father can't hold back his tears. This seemingly emotionless mother was even more striking to me BECAUSE her husband was losing it, for example, when I am around someone, or see someone, or hear someone who is crying, it makes me also cry, and that can be even a total stranger, let alone my own husband, ie, even if I was less emotional that I am, how can it not bring a wife/mother to lose it when she sees her husband losing it, the husband who is likely normally strong? And even more than that, the dad's eyes are red from crying, and meanwhile, mom's are not,.. so ???? I agree with the poster who responded to the other enquiry over the lack of emotion, that when your husband falls apart, it is left to the wife to be the strong one, but even so, in *this* situation, and in front of all these people, I just can't jive her lack of emotion with the situation.
  2. the seeming lack of comforting going on from the dad to the mom. The mom is all over the dad, hugging, patting, kissing, holding, but yet... there is little of the same seen from husband toward his wife. Why???? She has lost both her son AND her mother??
  3. a previous poster posted a link to a Globe & Mail newspaper article (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ing-calgary-boy-grandparents/article19449772/) in which a person who attended the Licknes sale said that Nathan was not seen there ("She did not see Nathan at the sale, although family members said he was there, .... "). Of course this means nothing, but my little ears perked up when I read this because.... what if the boy was missing before the sale was even over? Did anyone see him at the sale? Apparently he was at the park? One article I read somewhere said he was there with the grandfather, another post said grandfather (AL) was watching him through a garage or something??
  4. at the news conference... God bless the poor father of Nathan as he holds onto a paper butterfly his son had made. Meanwhile, mom is holding a....... brand new shirt that she just newly purchased to give to her son on Monday morning when she picked him up? She is holding this tshirt during the press conference which was held on which day??? Yes.. two whole days later, on Wednesday?? A tshirt with the scent of 'newly-made-in-China' smell?? Wouldn't you be instead holding on for dear life to an item of clothing, a teddy bear, a blanket, SOMETHING that actually had the scent of her precious missing child on it? Just weird imho.
  5. and the final real kicker that has really really been picking at me for days...... in the press conference.. at the link I posted above which is the one I watched.. at approximately 07:24 into the recording (it is in total 11:56 minutes), the mother says, "Nathan was the most loving human being and throughout that whole sale......... "... the keyword being "WAS" !! This is just bothering me to pieces. Of ALL people, wouldn't she be the one with the MOST hope that Nathan still "IS", and not "WAS"???
Finally, I did read back quite a bit and so forgive me if I am duplicating anything. I found out here (had not seen this bankruptcy stuff anywhere else yet!) about the bankruptcy issues with the dad, grandmother and grandfather's business. This, to me, sheds a new potential light onto things. I read an article that said the employees were let go just on June 25th, which is what? Only 4 days prior to these people going missing? That is one huge coincidence! In a business bankruptcy, if it is incorporated, and if AL set things up so that his own personal assets would not be affected, that could cause HUGE bad feelings with contractors to which the company may have owned a lot of money to. In his line of business, I'm not sure what kind of contractors he would have been using, but just because it is a business that went bankrupt doesn't mean that some real people were not financially crushed by it. The county seized the company's equipment because it was owed $800,000 in property taxes, penalties and interest, but there could have been much more money owed to all kinds of other entities and people. And if one of those people saw that they were having a 'moving sale', and planned to get out of town, it may not have gone over too well? I hope LE is following up on THAT tidbit.



Please put yourself in the Mother's shoes. At the time of the press conference, we can assume they all knew of the "business" dealings and failures of her Mother's husband, and chances are, they also suspect that played a part in the disappearances. They were probably not allowed to speak publicly about it. (Reward-noreward scenario)

NO's Mother was also the one that chose to leave NO there.

I think it's safe to speculate that there might be some bitterness and blame on his part, given the issue at hand is coming from her side of the family. Her "guilt" might be self imposed. His lack of comforting her, and her seeking some, seems more like a strained relationship, than an act of guilty parties.
 
  • #362
I think a smart killer would not bury victims near where he lives. More likely he would drive far away to dispose the remains so that they will never be found, or, if found, would not be thought to be associated with him. The McStay family is just one example. So it's important to know whether/where DG traveled on June 30 and the 2 following days (he had plenty of time before LE came to his house).

Wouldn't it be interesting to be able to look at the Bank records of Matthew Hartley for the dates in question...
 
  • #363
I don't think we can conclude that all 3 missing are deceased. Even if AL and KL were deceased and there is still a chance that Nathan is alive, thus the Amber Alert remains in effect.

If only one of the 3 was injured and subsequently died, LE/HRD dogs could be looking/finding body parts of only that one victim while the other victims remain alive.

What we think/feel based on the limited facts we are privy to could be totally different from facts that are known to LE.

I'm not concluding that they are all deceased, but I also don't believe you're going to rescue/find whomever might remain alive, in a slough or a field. There had to be a reason they had a cadaver dog helping with the search. And say they did find the body of AL or KL on the property, that doesn't necessarily mean doing so will lead them to an alive Nathan. I just hope they're searching other places for them other than just this rural property because it seems pretty clear to me that they're not holed up alive somewhere on the property..........unless there's some hidden underground bunker somewhere. There are only so many places that living human beings could have been 'hidden' on a rural property, particularly considering how meticulous their 5+ day search thus far, IMO. It's obvious to me that if any of them are alive, they're not on that property or the surrounding properties they've been searching.............unless you can suggest what places on these rural sections a human could have been hidden and still remain alive?
 
  • #364
Abstar, that is an Ontario case related to a G surname in Ontario and no mention of Alberta at all.

Thanks sillybilly! I need to brush up on my geography and reading skills :shame:
 
  • #365
"Court records show an additional offence of possessing a TD bank card obtained by a criminal act has been added to the allegation of identity theft Garland now faces.

The charge is from the same date, last Friday, as the allegation he faces involving having identity information in the name of Matthew Hartley."

http://www.calgarysun.com/2014/07/0...sing-family-case-to-face-new-unrelated-charge
Thank you so much! That has put me out of my misery. Strange that the reporter would tweet now as though it were breaking news. Got me all worked up.
 
  • #366
Quite possibly yes. This was tweeted about 4 hours ago so I am thinking it is rather meaningful. I could be wrong but if he is in possession of a stolen card then I make the leap to could it be AL or KL's card and if so that is enough to detain him until they uncover further evidence.

Please refer to POST #358.
 
  • #367
Wouldn't it be interesting to be able to look at the TD Bank records of Matthew Hartley for the dates in question...

A smart killer wouldn't use bank card during such a crucial time period. He wouldn't want to leave any trace of his activities and whereabouts during that time period.

And whoever took the 3 people would have plenty of CASH from the Liknes's garage sales.
 
  • #368
To me the F150 LE is using as a pawn in the game. We know LE has it, they want to find out where it was going , ie were there any detours along the way from the L's home to Airdrie. JMO
 
  • #369
True, but that's not what LE are saying. They're saying they're hopeful that everyone is alive, and yet they are acting as if they think somebody is dead. Their words simply don't match their actions. And they are responsible for that incongruity. They are in control of what they say and what they do, and if they don't want us to be privy to certain information that's fine, but is there a need to present such blatant contradictions?

How can LE say anything BUT that they are hopeful, they ARE hopeful, WE are ALL hopeful, the families are especially hopeful, but that does not preclude LE from doing their jobs to try to FIND these missing persons, whether dead or alive. I don't see a contradiction at all. There is hope for the family, and there is due diligence to find out what happened to these people.
 
  • #370
A smart killer wouldn't use bank card during such a crucial time period. He wouldn't want to leave any trace of his activities and whereabouts during that time period.

And whoever took the 3 people would have plenty of CASH from the Liknes's garage sales.

It could be debated that a smart killer wouldn't leave blood everywhere, or leave their image on a camera. A smart killer wouldn't use their own bank card... you win that one...
 
  • #371
A smart killer wouldn't use bank card during such a crucial time period. He wouldn't want to leave any trace of his activities and whereabouts during that time period.

And whoever took the 3 people would have plenty of CASH from the Liknes's garage sales.

The smart guy wasn't figuring on getting caught (I'm presuming he did not have possession of any of the missing persons' credit cards!). And according to another poster's link to the Licknes' kijiji ads, I wouldn't suppose they could have had that much cash. (I was imagining the same thing until I took a look at the kijiji ads).
 
  • #372
The smart guy wasn't figuring on getting caught (I'm presuming he did not have possession of any of the missing persons' credit cards!). And according to another poster's link to the Licknes' kijiji ads, I wouldn't suppose they could have had that much cash. (I was imagining the same thing until I took a look at the kijiji ads).

Estate Sale = Marketing Ploy
 
  • #373
I'm not concluding that they are all deceased, but I also don't believe you're going to rescue/find whomever might remain alive, in a slough or a field. There had to be a reason they had a cadaver dog helping with the search. And say they did find the body of AL or KL on the property, that doesn't necessarily mean doing so will lead them to an alive Nathan. I just hope they're searching other places for them other than just this rural property because it seems pretty clear to me that they're not holed up alive somewhere on the property..........unless there's some hidden underground bunker somewhere. There are only so many places that living human beings could have been 'hidden' on a rural property, particularly considering how meticulous their 5+ day search thus far, IMO. It's obvious to me that if any of them are alive, they're not on that property or the surrounding properties they've been searching.............unless you can suggest what places on these rural sections a human could have been hidden and still remain alive?

They said they are searching for evidence. Evidence can be something as small as a gum wrapper or as big as an elephant. Of course they would bring a cadaver dog in the event it detected a scent of decomp (doesn't even have to be a body part ... just the scent of a deceased body having been there).

What other places can you suggest they could be searching right now if they have no indications of such a place connected to this POI or anyone else?
 
  • #374
It could be debated that a smart killer wouldn't leave blood everywhere, or leave their image on a camera. A smart killer wouldn't use their own bank card... you win that one...

The smart guy wasn't figuring on getting caught (I'm presuming he did not have possession of any of the missing persons' credit cards!). And according to another poster's link to the Licknes' kijiji ads, I wouldn't suppose they could have had that much cash. (I was imagining the same thing until I took a look at the kijiji ads).

Gee.
Officially out of these discussions.
 
  • #375
How can LE say anything BUT that they are hopeful, they ARE hopeful, WE are ALL hopeful, the families are especially hopeful, but that does not preclude LE from doing their jobs to try to FIND these missing persons, whether dead or alive. I don't see a contradiction at all. There is hope for the family, and there is due diligence to find out what happened to these people.

Indeed. Let's all hope they don't let an ounce of apathy or assumption interfere with a full and complete investigation. Wouldn't that be something if they were all found a little worse for wear, locked away somewhere for this whole time...

The lack of information given and careful choice of words, albeit frustrating, is a hopeful sign that they have a lot that they can't talk about yet... fingers crossed.
 
  • #376
Could it not be possible that DG was hired by someone who had issues w/ AL and/or KL? Maybe the mastermind behind this all enlisted the help of DG due to the fact that he had a significant criminal history and a direct connection to the Liknes family?..........and if anything went awry, he'd be the easy #1 suspect? Did someone offer a good handful of cash to, be a look-out?....or a driver?.......or some other less direct participation in what happened to AK/AL and NO?

Curious about whether AL has life insurance and if so who is listed as beneficiary, perhaps other than his wife? ..........any of his children listed as beneficiaries other than or in addition to his wife KL? Obviously KL wasn't his first wife. Is it possible at all that following AL's divorce from wife #1 that he had his will/life insurance revised to remove wife #1 as beneficiary and listed one of his children (like a son????) as beneficiary and then for some reason never again revised it once marrying KL?
 
  • #377
Someone earlier had mentioned about the Lickneses having sold their house back in December for $700,000. They must not have had any equity, or wouldn't that equity, or at least KL's 'half', have been seized toward her bankruptcy, since according to what I have been reading here, it is a fairly new bankruptcy, like 2 years? Unless the house was not in her name at all (but doesn't Canadian matrimony laws mean that she automatically owned half of the matrimonial home?) And so they have no personal assets, because their house is sold, and who knows whose name the new house is purchased in? I'm just thinking that if AL's company owed piles of money to someone and he had no recourse and there was no way to get money from AL because everything was now already sold and/or in other people's names, perhaps someone was having bad thoughts about what to do to get revenge.
 
  • #378
Indeed. Let's all hope they don't let an ounce of apathy or assumption interfere with a full and complete investigation. Wouldn't that be something if they were all found a little worse for wear, locked away somewhere for this whole time...

The lack of information given and careful choice of words, albeit frustrating, is a hopeful sign that they have a lot that they just don't want to talk about yet... fingers crossed.

Yes, fingers crossed for sure. I *always* think and hope that LE know a LOT more than is let out, but i have been disappointed before. But then again, with each weird case, LE gets smarter.
 
  • #379
They said they are searching for evidence. Evidence can be something as small as a gum wrapper or as big as an elephant. Of course they would bring a cadaver dog in the event it detected a scent of decomp (doesn't even have to be a body part ... just the scent of a deceased body having been there).

What other places can you suggest they could be searching right now if they have no indications of such a place connected to this POI or anyone else?

Well obviously I am not privy to the info that LE has so I can't possibly suggest where else they could be searching for them, but I do know that the days are going by, the weather is hot, and if there's a chance they are tied/locked up/being kept somewhere and have no access to water and food and medical help for whomever is believed to be in medical distress, that the prognosis doesn't look that good for them.
 
  • #380
Could it not be possible that DG was hired by someone who had issues w/ AL and/or KL? Maybe the mastermind behind this all enlisted the help of DG due to the fact that he had a significant criminal history and a direct connection to the Liknes family?..........and if anything went awry, he'd be the easy #1 suspect? Did someone offer a good handful of cash to, be a look-out?....or a driver?.......or some other less direct participation in what happened to AK/AL and NO?

Curious about whether AL has life insurance and if so who is listed as beneficiary, perhaps other than his wife? ..........any of his children listed as beneficiaries other than or in addition to his wife KL? Obviously KL wasn't his first wife. Is it possible at all that following AL's divorce from wife #1 that he had his will/life insurance revised to remove wife #1 as beneficiary and listed one of his children (like a son????) as beneficiary and then for some reason never again revised it once marrying KL?

Pure speculation, but would you hire someone to commit a crime who would knowingly be the #1 suspect in that crime?
 
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