Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 June 2014 - #5

[Stirner]

The Pickton case is a classic example of how a missing person just stays that way. There was nothing to tie him to that for years, especially enough to get a warrant to search his farm.

So a woman running from the farm severely injured and claiming Pickton tried to kill her isn't enough to get a warrant? I don't know how much you know about the Pickton murders, but I know just about everything there is to know as I live in Vancouver and followed it closely at the time. The police badly botched the investigation into the missing women and insisted for years that a serial killer wasn't responsible even though they had plenty of reason to believe otherwise. At least a dozen women would be alive today if police had properly investigated Pickton years before he was finally caught. When police finally did search the property the ID of several woman was strewn throughout the trailer Pickton was living in, and it was not difficult to find at all.

 

[Stirner]

from:
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/07/09/douglas-garland_n_5571677.html

There is no indication that DG's claim that he was involved in a 'horrific accident when he fell asleep at the wheel', which he told the judge in his employment insurance trial, was true. So until we hear from whoever supposedly diagnosed DG with ADHD, I'm inclined to believe it's another fabrication he devised in order to garner pity from the judge and whoever else he wanted to con at any particular time...

 

[Sillybilly]

Back to the debate... look at the shadow behind the car, and the lack of shadows elsewhere... darkness was after 10pm that night, so it could be around 9:30.

I see a very long, continuous shadow from along the driver's side near the back wheel to about 10' in front of the truck.

 

[Sillybilly]

No way would it be that light out at 4 in the morning.

I'm in BC and it's light about 5:00 and we don't have the Big Sky that Alberta has. The sun comes up over the horizon earlier in AB than here.

 

[Stirner]

No way would it be that light out at 4 in the morning.

I agree, it looks more like 6am-8am. The sun moves very slowly across the sky during the summer so shadows would still be cast at a sharp angle by 8am...

 

[Hitchhiker]

I check the news online a few times a day, and I keep finding more red herrings on this case. Searching the fields on the farm. Now searching the landfill. As if the middle-aged POI, who had a history of mental breakdowns and small criminal activity, suddenly turned into some monster from whatever the favorite crime drama of the season happens to be. Transporting, incinerating, burying - plenty of speculative motives floating around, but nothing concrete. Here is a guy who lives on the outside looking in, alone, managing from day-to-day. He had no trouble with the law for ten years, and if he hadn't ended up on police radar, so to speak, they would never have come up with the current charges for identity theft and the fishy bank card in that same phony name again. But really, upstanding Canadians who never walk over the line in this society, open and fair, humane and honest as the system is (for them and theirs, but not for everybody) -- wow! they can get their shoelaces in a knot. Charges. Arrest. Big deal. Maybe POI wasn't a fan of that well-to-do family, and drove around to check out the sale they were having. Maybe he was in town that day with nothing else to do that night. I think he didn't have some 'evil plan'; he was just aimless and curious and a little cheesed and depressed. So who hasn't driven around the block of people who bug them, for one reason or another? It's therapeutic, maybe. Anyway, I don't see it as more than that. And I don't see POI having anything at all to do with the disappearance of the grandparents and the kid. I have lived long enough to have seen several Canadians convicted of murders they didn't commit, after the police had impressed everybody with their procedures and professionalism. The jury takes them at their word. Juries believe the experts, here in Canada, even when the experts are wrong. Whoever sounds most authoritative in the media usually wins the brass ring. Sadly, I have noticed it usually takes around a decade for the innocent man to be cleared of all charges. Actually, these cases come up every few years. It's not a good record.

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

So a woman running from the farm severely injured and claiming Pickton tried to kill her isn't enough to get a warrant? I don't know how much you know about the Pickton murders, but I know just about everything there is to know as I live in Vancouver and followed it closely at the time. The police badly botched the investigation into the missing women and insisted for years that a serial killer wasn't responsible even though they had plenty of reason to believe otherwise. At least a dozen women would be alive today if police had properly investigated Pickton years before he was finally caught. When police finally did search the property the ID of several woman was strewn throughout the trailer Pickton was living in, and it was not difficult to find at all.

Again... missing the point... had the bodies been discovered, it completely changes the investigation. The original discussion, and analogy, was in reference to the benefit of removing bodies from a missing persons investigation. We can debate the particulars, like how many years went between the first disappearance and the last disappearance, and who witnessed when... but it all serves my point, which was, without bodies, it complicates the investigation and trial exponentially. Which... it to the advantage of the perp... which is why someone would choose to take bodies with them.

 

[otto]

I've marked the two landfill sites on the map. I believe police said that they will search nearby landfill sites. The Spyhill Landfill site looks closer to the Airdrie acreage than the Shepard Landfill. The third landfill that was mentioned was Three Hills (Big Valley Landfill), but that is a lot farther away.

 

[Stirner]

I'm in BC and it's light about 5:00 and we don't have the Big Sky that Alberta has. The sun comes up over the horizon earlier in AB than here.

Sunrise in calgary today was 5:33am, probably closer to 5:20am at the time the people went missing. In order to cast shadows like the ones in the photo the sun has to be above the trees and houses around there. It had to be at least 6:30am...

 

[OutOfTheDarkness]

I see a very long, continuous shadow from along the driver's side near the back wheel to about 10' in front of the truck.

Are you looking at the Google street view picture with the shadow of the Google car?

 

[Sillybilly]

There is no indication that DG's claim that he was involved in a 'horrific accident when he fell asleep at the wheel', which he told the judge in his employment insurance trial, was true. So until we hear from whoever supposedly diagnosed DG with ADHD, I'm inclined to believe it's another fabrication he devised in order to garner pity from the judge and whoever else he wanted to con at any particular time...

I agree Stirner ... it all may have been just a Big Fat Lie !!

 

[Stirner]

Again... missing the point... had the bodies been discovered, it completely changes the investigation. The original discussion, and analogy, was in reference to the benefit of removing bodies from a missing persons investigation. We can debate the particulars, like how many years went between the first disappearance and the last disappearance, and who witnessed when... but it all serves my point, which was, without bodies, it complicates the investigation and trial exponentially. Which... it to the advantage of the perp... which is why someone would choose to take bodies with them.

I didn't miss your point, I just pointed out that what you said about Pickton was not accurate.

 

[Stirner]

I check the news online a few times a day, and I keep finding more red herrings on this case. Searching the fields on the farm. Now searching the landfill. As if the middle-aged POI, who had a history of mental breakdowns and small criminal activity, suddenly turned into some monster from whatever the favorite crime drama of the season happens to be. Transporting, incinerating, burying - plenty of speculative motives floating around, but nothing concrete. Here is a guy who lives on the outside looking in, alone, managing from day-to-day. He had no trouble with the law for ten years, and if he hadn't ended up on police radar, so to speak, they would never have come up with the current charges for identity theft and the fishy bank card in that same phony name again. But really, upstanding Canadians who never walk over the line in this society, open and fair, humane and honest as the system is (for them and theirs, but not for everybody) -- wow! they can get their shoelaces in a knot. Charges. Arrest. Big deal. Maybe POI wasn't a fan of that well-to-do family, and drove around to check out the sale they were having. Maybe he was in town that day with nothing else to do that night. I think he didn't have some 'evil plan'; he was just aimless and curious and a little cheesed and depressed. So who hasn't driven around the block of people who bug them, for one reason or another? It's therapeutic, maybe. Anyway, I don't see it as more than that. And I don't see POI having anything at all to do with the disappearance of the grandparents and the kid. I have lived long enough to have seen several Canadians convicted of murders they didn't commit, after the police had impressed everybody with their procedures and professionalism. The jury takes them at their word. Juries believe the experts, here in Canada, even when the experts are wrong. Whoever sounds most authoritative in the media usually wins the brass ring. Sadly, I have noticed it usually takes around a decade for the innocent man to be cleared of all charges. Actually, these cases come up every few years. It's not a good record.

I think it's a little premature to suggest that the POI might be getting railroaded by the justice system. Besides, since Canada doesn't have the death penalty, false incarceration isn't a big concern, to me, anyway. I'd rather see someone innocent imprisoned for 10 years than someone guilty staying free for the rest of their lives... Those guys who get exonerated also get a big payout from the govt...

 

[LayzeeDayzee]

I am thinking that the area that LE is gathered around in this screenshot from the video linked below, is the fire pit and burning area that the neighbour seen in heavy use a week ago today, since it is right in front of the greenhouse that had the lights on in the middle of the night.

JMO

View attachment 54529

http://globalnews.ca/news/1440571/person-of-interest-in-missing-calgary-family-to-appear-in-court/

Anybody have any idea what the orange colored piece of equipment shown in this picture is? Wood chipper?

 

[otto]

I check the news online a few times a day, and I keep finding more red herrings on this case. Searching the fields on the farm. Now searching the landfill. As if the middle-aged POI, who had a history of mental breakdowns and small criminal activity, suddenly turned into some monster from whatever the favorite crime drama of the season happens to be. Transporting, incinerating, burying - plenty of speculative motives floating around, but nothing concrete. Here is a guy who lives on the outside looking in, alone, managing from day-to-day. He had no trouble with the law for ten years, and if he hadn't ended up on police radar, so to speak, they would never have come up with the current charges for identity theft and the fishy bank card in that same phony name again. But really, upstanding Canadians who never walk over the line in this society, open and fair, humane and honest as the system is (for them and theirs, but not for everybody) -- wow! they can get their shoelaces in a knot. Charges. Arrest. Big deal. Maybe POI wasn't a fan of that well-to-do family, and drove around to check out the sale they were having. Maybe he was in town that day with nothing else to do that night. I think he didn't have some 'evil plan'; he was just aimless and curious and a little cheesed and depressed. So who hasn't driven around the block of people who bug them, for one reason or another? It's therapeutic, maybe. Anyway, I don't see it as more than that. And I don't see POI having anything at all to do with the disappearance of the grandparents and the kid. I have lived long enough to have seen several Canadians convicted of murders they didn't commit, after the police had impressed everybody with their procedures and professionalism. The jury takes them at their word. Juries believe the experts, here in Canada, even when the experts are wrong. Whoever sounds most authoritative in the media usually wins the brass ring. Sadly, I have noticed it usually takes around a decade for the innocent man to be cleared of all charges. Actually, these cases come up every few years. It's not a good record.

Burying isn't a motive, it's a method of hiding the crime. Finances are most likely the motive. We know that Garland claimed that he had a breakdown in his third year of university in his court documents (1980), but it's also been reported that he was expelled from university for cheating (those were the days!) and that he was fired from work (1997). He claimed that he had a breakdown at those two times in his life, but I'm not prepared to believe him.

I think his last brush with the law was failure to yield to a pedestrian in the last couple of years. When I saw that, I laughed. That's like getting a ticket for parking more than 16 inches from the curb, but perhaps there's more to the story.

 

[Shags0sh]

New here, love this sites good will and awesome sleuthing skills. If I do something wrong, or am not following the rules PLEASE let me know (I did peruse them) I have been lurking on here for days wrto this case. Post 845 posts picture of the fire pit, I couldn't help but notice the chipper pretty much next to it. This can be used for wood, animals, *people*, branches, the possibilities are endless), Picton farms this was one of the preferred methods and then feeding to the pigs. The super close proximity to the fire pit, which made me get shivers, and bring up the Picton case....super creepy. Also, this is strictly MOO, the LE have DG being held on 'trumped' up charges as a POI, He is in effect, missing.....so if the bodies of AL, KL, and NO are out there, and are presumably not deceased, do you not think the number of days he isn't there doling out food or water wouldn't have led to a horrible scenario? Or are LE quite certain he hasn't any viable lives to take care of? Just MOO, but I think after the very first news cast, the spokesman for the Calgary police made mention that these were ordinary people with no people wishing ill will on them.....MOO, JO I'm pretty certain would have most likely been privy to bad blood, and owed money, as well as motive...but LE news conference made it seem like a normal family with no enemies....and no mention of a company dissolving on June 24, which owed quite a bit of money...these are two serious puzzle pieces, and them not divulging this seems shady and suspect at best....hopefully someone can shed some light on this.

 

[Sillybilly]

I've marked the two landfill sites on the map. I believe police said that they will search nearby landfill sites. The Spyhill Landfill site looks closer to the Airdrie acreage than the Shepard Landfill. The third landfill that was mentioned was Three Hills (Big Valley Landfill), but that is a lot farther away.

I cant' see the streets on your map otto, but there is also the East Calgary Landfill:

http://www.calgary.ca/UEP/WRS/Pages...Directions-to-East-Calgary-Landfill-Site.aspx

 

[otto]

Anybody have any idea what the orange colored piece of equipment shown in this picture is? Wood chipper?

A lawn mower with a large entertainment screen?
No. I don't recognize it. I also don' know why there would be a wood chipper on the property. Many of the trees look like they were planted on the prairies ... it doesn't look like a property that needs to be cleared of trees. Could it be for fertilizing the fields?

 

[otto]

I cant' see the streets on your map otto, but there is also the East Calgary Landfill:

http://www.calgary.ca/UEP/WRS/Pages...Directions-to-East-Calgary-Landfill-Site.aspx

Thanks! I'll add that.

 

[Stirner]

if the bodies of AL, KL, and NO are out there, and are presumably not deceased, do you not think the number of days he isn't there doling out food or water wouldn't have led to a horrible scenario? Or are LE quite certain he hasn't any viable lives to take care of?

That's a good point, and further complicates LE's claims that they're hopeful the victims are alive...