CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #4

[No_Stone_Unturned]

:tyou: for the full moon info. I think the effects of a full moon last for a few days.

Thoughts:

[modsnip]

- or, I'm waaaay off on the full moon thing!! :crazy:

As for nic's questions about sadists/sexual sadists - let me do some research from CAMH and other places. Shall get back to you with any info I find!!

-----------

ETA: Oh look - SV's full moon was prior to her murder by a few days!

Full Moon for August, 2010

August 24, 17:05

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Here we go - Sexual Sadism:

LINK - http://www.forensicpsychiatry.ca/paraphilia/sadism.htm

For me, this part is key:

--Characteristics/Predominate Features - Major Sexual Sadism;
Major sexual sadism, on other other hand, is usually not consensual and involves injury or death to the victim. The element of fear in the victim and complete control of the victim is the major sexual stimuli in major sexual sadism. Some of the more severe activities involved in this behavior may include:

■severe beatings
■torture
■burning, cutting,
■stabbing in the breast or buttocks (piquerism)
■rape (see Sadistic Rape)
■murder (see Sadistic or Lust Murder)
■vampirism
■necrophilia


ETA: Here's more:

LINK - http://www.sociology.org/content/vol003.002/hinch.html

 

[dotr]

I agree. But tend to include "knew to see" in my definition of "knew her killer": ie: she knew her killer to some degree.

Even knowing someone to see can be enough to make you let your guard down. For example, if you see someone everyday at Tim Hortons but never talk, you'll still probably feel more of a connection to them than to someone you've never seen before.

I agree that if this was not a person/s in AG's inner circle, then someone AG may have seen around town was noticing, watching and perhaps judging her.
Living in a big city where panhandlers ect. seem to be around every dark corner,it is odd to be in a very different part of town and see the same one there tone almost feels comforted by the familiarity in the strange setting, until you think- oh oh, is he following me?
Stranger still, is seeing some "homeless"person, pack up and get into a tucked away car and drive back home to the burbs in time for dinner.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

OK, I'll also go with "new to see" (IE. I see my grocery store clerk once per week, but I don't know her).

That said - in my soul I'm staying with my first choice of AG's killer - she knew him, he knew her habits/routine, he'd been at her house many times!

:cupcake:

 

[libyana]

Great list NSU This is what I see in this creep, possibly the other attacks and murders too.
These are the the same characteristics found in Paul Bernardo and Colonel Williams.
Both serial killers and peeping Toms [ hate that phrase but what else do you say].
It's the laundrey list of a very dangerous killer.

 

[dotr]

http://www.drtomoconnor.com/3220/3220lect03a.htmIn 1958 criminologist Marvin

Wolfgang coined the term "victim precipitation" to describe where the victim is the first begin the interplay of criminal violence (by drawing a gun or striking the first blow). Subsequent criminologists have followed up on this idea by describing the typical "character contests" that occur in a typical interchange between offender, victim, and sometimes an audience. David Luckenbill's (1977) model of five stages is the most well-known of these, as follows:

the victim makes what the offender perceives as a threatening move, gesture, or remark

the offender clarifies or interprets the meaning of the threat by making inquiries as to what the victim meant by asking the victim or bystanders

the offender then retaliates with a verbal or physical challenge

the victim then retaliates with increased hostility

a battle ensures, and either victim or offender is left dead or dying"



" The one thing they have in common is the mixture of a sexual urge with the desire to dominate, pursue, capture, pressure, cajole, bully, seduce, or "persuade" another person to come around to "their" way of thinking -- that it is the offender's right to hunt and hound their prey (Box 1983). These vile predators firmly believe their victims will eventually come around to believing that satisfaction of their pleasure is also their victim's pleasure."

 

[Sillybilly]

Your link is a bit wonky, dotr ... this should work:

http://www.drtomoconnor.com/3220/3220lect03a.htm

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Blame It On One's Genes??

http://www.nc-cm.org/article213.htm

I like this part:

Understanding how and why serial killers commit such horrific crimes is an important step to stopping the homicidal rampages these psychokillers go on. Scientists searched and found what is believed to be hard evidence, that genetics is the key role in determining who becomes a serial killer unlike criminologists and psychologists who argue that large events such as abuse and abandonment create the setting and foundation in which serial killers grow into sadistic mass murders. Though both arguments are strongly proved and explained through research and statistics neither are individually the answer to why serial killers exist. In reviewing the evidence of both explanations I have found that it is a mix of both genetics and cultural upbringings. Though many humans must deal with violent situations as children and experience horrific events many do not become mass murderers. It is true that many children who are victims of abuse become violent in their adult lives but to cross into the category of a serial killer one must be born with a different biochemical makeup. In my conclusion nature does choose what traits we are born with but at the same time these traits cannot be exposed without a mechanism that triggers these individuals to commit these horrific crimes. Without the alignment of both natural genetic defects and the cultural nurturing in which humans are brought up in, serial killers cannot become vicious killers. If we can curb domestic violence then the chances for a serial killer to become violent will decrease significantly making our world a safer place.

 

[Sillybilly]

Interesting article NSU. A few years ago, i spoke with a senior member of LE who told me they were looking into the role of genetics in criminality in general. We didn't get into any specifics, but i find it an interesting concept.

FWIW, in the above quote:

... Without the alignment of both natural genetic defects and the cultural nurturing in which humans are brought up in, serial killers cannot become vicious killers ...

surely he means "lack of cultural nurturing" ... but who made me the word police?

 

[libyana]

sadistic serial killers are on the rise, what is happening here? What would we call leaders who wage war knowing that thousands will be butchered. Why is it artists are almost never murderers. In Britain through the ages there were a lot of interbred psychopaths, definate genetics there.

 

[dotr]

Yes, that was an interesting article! I have often mulled about in my mind if killers are acting on an inherent family talent. For example, if one`s family are artistic or mathematically inclined ect, good chance those traits, cultivated or not, will come out in various family members over the years.What if one came from a long family line of say the very best executioners, or torturers,who would be greatly valued in the Middle Ages but perhaps a little less respected now. Do those descendents have a natural desire and inclination to torture and kill ..

 

[libyana]

Royal families come to mind, plenty of murders, no guilt.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

This may help answer the queries about a killer's brain:

http://livingamongpredators.over-blog.com/article-35527842.html

This stands out to me:

The limbic system of the brain contains the structures that control memory, emotion, and parental and social instincts. If this brain system is damaged, an individual may no longer have the ability to react appropriately to social expectations. If the damage is extreme, the individual may even display repetitive violence against others. If there is damage to the temporal lobe, an individual may have amnesia, epilepsy, and increased frequency and reduced threshold of violent responses. This temporal lobe damage has been cited as a cause in many murder cases (White, 2001).

Some research shows that there may be a genetic factor that results in a behavioral predisposition to violence (White, 2001). However, no single gene that causes aggression or violence has been isolated. Several studies have associated psychological disorders associated with aggression back through ancestry. There are more various psychopathologies in the families of young patients with borderline personality disorders than in control group families. It was also observed that a group of children with criminal and/or socially maladapted parents had abnormally elevated levels of social delinquency and aggression. The researchers that conducted these studies conclude that both genetics and environment play a role in violent behavior, “bad seeds [i.e. products of violence-predetermining genetics] blossom in bad [i.e. negligent, abusive, or violence-glamorizing] environments” (as quoted by White, 2001).

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Family psychosis from CAMH:

http://www.camh.net/about_addiction...health_information/when_parent_psychosis.html

To answer more queries:

Will it happen to me? Will I get it too?

Psychosis is a mental illness; it's not something you can "catch" from someone else, like a cold.
Psychosis is rare, but no one can know for sure if he or she will experience it at some point in life.
It's natural to worry about this. Psychosis is like other illnesses: if you have this kind of mental illness in your family, you might be at greater risk yourself. But it is still a very small chance-there is a much bigger chance that you won't get the illness.
To protect themselves against psychosis, kids should focus on what they can do to deal with stress and to lead a balanced life.

 

[nicgumshoe]

Blame It On One's Genes??

http://www.nc-cm.org/article213.htm

I like this part:

Understanding how and why serial killers commit such horrific crimes is an important step to stopping the homicidal rampages these psychokillers go on. Scientists searched and found what is believed to be hard evidence, that genetics is the key role in determining who becomes a serial killer unlike criminologists and psychologists who argue that large events such as abuse and abandonment create the setting and foundation in which serial killers grow into sadistic mass murders. Though both arguments are strongly proved and explained through research and statistics neither are individually the answer to why serial killers exist. In reviewing the evidence of both explanations I have found that it is a mix of both genetics and cultural upbringings. Though many humans must deal with violent situations as children and experience horrific events many do not become mass murderers. It is true that many children who are victims of abuse become violent in their adult lives but to cross into the category of a serial killer one must be born with a different biochemical makeup. In my conclusion nature does choose what traits we are born with but at the same time these traits cannot be exposed without a mechanism that triggers these individuals to commit these horrific crimes. Without the alignment of both natural genetic defects and the cultural nurturing in which humans are brought up in, serial killers cannot become vicious killers. If we can curb domestic violence then the chances for a serial killer to become violent will decrease significantly making our world a safer place.

Sounds like their going with the nature and nurture combo...which is popular these days in explaining other things as well.

Well, that covers scientists, criminologists and psychologists. I guess the philosophers still may think that without a social contract we'd all be running around serial killing each other in the state of nature, where as Hobbes said, life is nasty, brutish and short. :crazy:

 

[nicgumshoe]

Royal families come to mind, plenty of murders, no guilt.

Small gene pool too.....so it makes for a good study group to see how genetics might play a role.

 

[nicgumshoe]

Speaking about genetics and serial killing made me think of a recent study about the Hatfields and McCoys:

http://www.chron.com/news/nation-wo...y-feud-fueled-by-genetic-disorder-1838496.php

 

[Salem]

Some of this serial killer stuff you guys are coming up with would fit nicely in the Serial Killer forum, if you are inclined to share it there

Also -- let's keep the astrology stuff out of the threads please. We had an astrology forum, but it is now closed. Anyone interested can still read the threads there. Interesting stuff.

Thanks,

Salem

 

[nicgumshoe]

So we have a killer who may be a serial killer and a sexual sadist. I'd encourage neighbors to consider people in the area who might match what has been said here,
and to think hard about anyone who was out for a while from the 27th to the 30th.

And also to think about who was not keen to talk about the murder, or didn't seem phased by it, or didn't seem to be worried or vigilant.

One thing that keeps bothering me is, I believe there was snow on the ground until the December 30th when it rained . How did the killer expect to just walk around without leaving footprints and tire tracks? He didn't know it was going to rain later.

Did he try to conceal his tracks somehow? (Or did he return to the scene later to do this?) Surely there must be footprints of some kind in the garage. If there's not, then I'd be even more suspicious of PK.

Or did the killer have a reason why his footprints might be there? (A neighbor who can say he came by to wish AG a merry xmas).

Or maybe he didn't care about footprints and left them all over in the snow. But we don't know.

It's just too bad it rained. Footprints (and tire tracks) in the snow, or lack of them
with snow on the ground could tell us a lot.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Did PK drive right up to the garage door? Or did he park on the street/roadway and walk up to the garage? He said he found the body and called 911. Then after returning to the body as directed by 911, he gave 911 the info they wanted and sat on the bumper of his car.

Where was his car parked? And was it raining while he sat there?