CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #6

[dotr]

Horrific attack on senior..
http://www.edmontonsun.com/2013/02/...aping-senior-who-later-died-from-her-injuries
"Court heard police arrived and found the victim naked from the waist down and lying in a pool of blood with two large and deep cuts on the back of her head.

She was taken to hospital with multiple traumatic injuries, including a brain injury that caused delirium.

She died eight days later after contracting pneumonia as a result of partially pulling out a feeding tube and her death was later linked to the brain injury she suffered.

An autopsy found the senior had blunt injuries across her body and more than 30 bruises. There were also two points of impact to the back of her skull which the pathologist opined could have been caused from her being struck with a stainless steel thermos found at the scene that was severely dented and had Witzaney’s prints on"

 

[colette]

Who do you think is responsible for Audrey's murder, and what information do you base your opinion on?

I think it is some young man who either lived near Audrey or visited the area. I think he was between 16 and 25. I think he peeps in windows and is unknown to Audrey. I base this on: most crimes of elderly women with a sexual component were committed by young men in the neighborhood (visiting or live there) 2 such crimes were recently committed by young men in the neighborhood of victims in my area. I have seen this type of thing repeat over and over. Audrey was murdered by some young guy who watched her and attacked.

 

[Woodland]

That's an enlightening article from the Edmonton Sun dotr, for comparison to this case.

That case shows a random, frenzied, manic attack - the nutcase perpetrating the Edmonton crime did not know exactly who his victim would be, but he was looking for a victim. The weapon was an item belonging to the victim - even the perp did not know what would be available once he broke in.

Wonder what led LE to someone known to AG as opposed to the initial random attack? The dogs safely out of reach at the moment of attack? The dogs did not bark and warn AG someone was approaching the house - ie she didn't react to that warning? AG's coat covering her? With PK not noticing a frenzied crime scene, I'm guessing the weapon was taken away and the searches would have been conducted regardless.

 

[Chorley8]

Snip to isolate this paragraph:

PK's delivery of the cake put him smack dab at the scene of the crime when he needn't have done so. If he was guilty of the crime, what would have warranted his physical presence at the scene after the fact? If he was guilty of the crime and it was a matter of wanting Audrey's body discovered (remorse?), he could have simply called LE and said he was concerned for her well-being as she wasnt' answering her phone. Mind you, maybe there was something that couldn't be explained away by a phone call (i.e a possibility of his footprints in blood at the scene).

Is there a possible scenario where the crime is committed immediately before the cake delivery? Or even at the same time? (No blood on P.K. so this would require a second perp.) Because in S.B's footprints in blood at the crime scene scenario surely LE would be able to tell if they were days old. We don't know that P.K. even checked on Audrey - he says he did - he could have simply opened the garage door and called the police.

(Obviously LE is holding back the time of death for good reason).

Alternatively could P.K. have been an intended victim same perp? For some reason the plan changed he/she/they fled? A double murder gone awry?

Hopefully we are not expanding the scenarios too much.

 

[Chorley8]

Snipped to highlight this paragraph;

Wonder what led LE to someone known to AG as opposed to the initial random attack? The dogs safely out of reach at the moment of attack? The dogs did not bark and warn AG someone was approaching the house - ie she didn't react to that warning? AG's coat covering her? With PK not noticing a frenzied crime scene, I'm guessing the weapon was taken away and the searches would have been conducted regardless.

A daughter of a neighbour of Audrey's I think someone who had a small commercial business mentioned (news video don't have reference handy) they don't understand why the dogs didn't bark. Slim evidence but that would seem to suggest that they could hear the dogs or knew second hand say from the Fergusons that the dogs didn't bark. We understand that they were crated but they would surely have been going wild if they heard Audrey being victimized so cruelly (?) What does this mean? The Fergusons dogs barked and Audrey's didn't. The neighbours thought it strange that they didn't hear the dogs bark.

Colette's theory is still very possible. Stastics are on her side as are the lack of charges against friends and the young and close. If so I for one will feel guilty for maligning the innocent. But as Woodland said LE now doesn't think that is the case. We can't even say the jury is out, not there yet. There are reasons the discussion is ongoing - not everyone who finds human remains becomes a suspect - when Mariam Makhniashvili's remains were found a year ago (a case that still troubles me to death) as far as I know the "hikers" were not given lie detectors nor grilled for two years. (Though come to think of it I would have given the hikers a lie detector asking "did you know or were you told the remains were there before you began your walk") - but in any case you will get my point.

 

[Woodland]

It wouldn't be a surprise if Audrey had trouble containing resentment at being expected to stay as long as she lived in the home designed by her ex-husband. Further to that - and it isn't something we're going to be able to find out in this forum - if the staying in the marital home amounted to some kind of "chastity clause" (i.e., discouraging her remarriage or even dating with the prospect of her having to sell, surrender proceeds, and relocate), at the least we can understand bitter remarks, and at the most... a frightening premonition about the fate of a woman known to be living alone in a rural setting. If Audrey felt there was surveillance of her private life.... *lets that one hang*
LC

AG had sole ownership of the house - that would have formed part of the divorce decree. A marital home has to be dealt with in a divorce and the decision is recorded - one of them takes it or it's sold and the equity split. No judge would have allowed a clause of any kind binding her to her ex-husband by some action down the road.
Neither would the new wife. Jmo.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

From Chorley:

<<< We don't know that P.K. even checked on Audrey - he says he did - he could have simply opened the garage door and called the police. >>>



That's good! Never thought of that one.:twocents:

 

[Sillybilly]

Is there a possible scenario where the crime is committed immediately before the cake delivery? Or even at the same time? (No blood on P.K. so this would require a second perp.) Because in S.B's footprints in blood at the crime scene scenario surely LE would be able to tell if they were days old. We don't know that P.K. even checked on Audrey - he says he did - he could have simply opened the garage door and called the police.

(Obviously LE is holding back the time of death for good reason).

Alternatively could P.K. have been an intended victim same perp? For some reason the plan changed he/she/they fled? A double murder gone awry?

<rsbm>

PK said he observed hardened blood, and if that is true, then the crime would not have been committed immediately before his arrival. Would certainly account for no blood on PK. Yes, LE should be able to tell if any footprints were made at the same time as the blood loss, but a perp doesn't necessarily know that.

WRT whether or not PK checked on Audrey, I agree that even the dispatcher would not necessarily know that. I have to say, if a dispatcher was asking me to check for a pulse, I would not be begging off ... in the wild event I was wrong and my friend was actually able to be saved. I also wonder which pulse he was asked to check, and whether LE would be able to tell that her pulse was actually checked (indentation or his DNA).

WRT whether PK may have also been an intended target, how could any plan have changed? Audrey had effectively been eliminated, and their second target had arrived as planned ... what part of the plan wasn't going according to Hoyle (other than possibly the perp was inside, expecting him to enter).

MOO

 

[Canadian4]

One reason I can think of a perp going back to the scene is because he is sitting at home waiting for the crime to be discovered and as time goes on he becomes more anxious and paranoid and just can't take it anymore and goes back to "discover" the crime. This would also give him another chance to look around and see if he had left anything incriminating.

On another note, a cake is a lovely but inexpensive gift (nothing wrong with that). Was a nice new knife to cut the cake purchased to add to the gift?

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Where did PK park his car? Right behind Audrey's, just outside of the garage door? Where was the cake while PK was punching in the code and then discovering a dead body? If he really was concerned about his friend who 'slipped on the ice', I'd imagine he'd drop the cake and run to the friend to help her. Afterall, another cake can always be baked! Surely he wouldn't have the presence of mind to think - oh, I'd better place the cake safely in my car and THEN see if Audrey is dead or alive!

Now, if the perp knew PK was arriving with the cake perhaps that's why Audrey's body was in the garage rather than left in the house.

Would PK have entered the house with the cake if the body hadn't been in the garage?

How often are LE incorrect when they have a POI who has discrepancies in the polygraph? Yes, LE was way off base with DLS. But cake-dude is *looking* bad here.

Where would PK have parked his car IF we'd had the type of snowstorm we've just had here in Ontario? Did Audrey have a snow removal guy? Or, was that also one of PK's jobs?

How many jobs did he have? And his schooling. And getting married. And all that e-mailing time with Audrey. And at Christmas time when people are even busier. And at New Years when he might be planning a party with AK. And his duties to his parents. On and on................

 

[Canadian4]

"would PK enter the house if AGs body hadn't been in the garage?". Good point NSU. I guess it would depend on if the Camaro was in there cause PK said he never ever entered her home when she wasn't there.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

"would PK enter the house if AGs body hadn't been in the garage?". Good point NSU. I guess it would depend on if the Camaro was in there cause PK said he never ever entered her home when she wasn't there.

That's my point - with the Camaro in the garage would he have entered the house to deliver the cake? Or, to see if she was OK.

Maybe he had to go to the scene of the crime to make sure his prints were on the Camaro. He said he never rode in the car but he did help Audrey unload things from the car. Maybe he needed to return to place his handprints on the vehicle to make it look like he was leaning on the car while checking on Audrey who had 'slipped on the ice'.

I wonder where the stabbing implement was? Did LE ever find it? Was it still in Audrey's body, sticking out like a knife would? I suppose there were no prints on the weapon even if that was the case........

:moo:

 

[Chorley8]

<rsbm>

PK said he observed hardened blood, and if that is true, then the crime would not have been committed immediately before his arrival. Would certainly account for no blood on PK. Yes, LE should be able to tell if any footprints were made at the same time as the blood loss, but a perp doesn't necessarily know that.

WRT whether or not PK checked on Audrey, I agree that even the dispatcher would not necessarily know that. I have to say, if a dispatcher was asking me to check for a pulse, I would not be begging off ... in the wild event I was wrong and my friend was actually able to be saved. I also wonder which pulse he was asked to check, and whether LE would be able to tell that her pulse was actually checked (indentation or his DNA).

WRT whether PK may have also been an intended target, how could any plan have changed? Audrey had effectively been eliminated, and their second target had arrived as planned ... what part of the plan wasn't going according to Hoyle (other than possibly the perp was inside, expecting him to enter).

Well I was just running it past not at all committed to the idea - though again 'hardened blood' that is coming from P.K. Your idea of what you would do of course is assuming an innocent person. As for the P.K. as target scenario: anything could have changed, something to frighten them away, horror at what they had already done, some disturbance real or imagined, anything. Does seem a little elaborate though.

As I think Dotr and No Stone have reminded us at some point what stands in the way of the 'financial motive' or other scenarios is the degree of violence and possibly the sexual element if we take it at face value. And if you are going to plan to the extent that you try to disguise the motive through the staging of a sexual component - why on earth not arrange an "accident" or suicide? Much easier and then the default, if police get suspicious, is still just the murder you are already left with if you kill her. There does seem to be some deep animus towards Audrey.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

I also wonder if Audrey had been living a double life. And if PK learned about that somehow, he could be in danger.

Did PK ever wonder about the kinds of things I'm thinking about?

 

[Chorley8]

How likely is it that Audrey would ask for a handyman at that store, Windmill in Dundas and get a budding talented electronic engineer who shares so many interests to the point that he is invited in, spending long paid and unpaid hours with her?

Any chance he was encouraged to enter her confidence?

 

[roseofsharon]

A's dogs apparently did not bark ... could it be because they knew the visitor(s) very well and when A and the visitor(s) went to the garage to part ways, the dogs didn't hear a thing, but the neighbour's dog heard the vistor/killer leaving.

Drove past 3401 Indian Trail this a.m. and saw the new house ... Indian Trail looking so beautiful today after the storm, especially what once was A's property.

imo

 

[dotr]

A's dogs apparently did not bark ... could it be because they knew the visitor(s) very well and when A and the visitor(s) went to the garage to part ways, the dogs didn't hear a thing, but the neighbour's dog heard the vistor/killer leaving.
Drove past 3401 Indian Trail this a.m. and saw the new house ... Indian Trail looking so beautiful today after the storm, especially what once was A's property.

imo

Rbbm

What if (perish the thought) the neighbour's dogs heard the visitor/killer arriving at their house?...

In retrospect,how many neighbours do have dogs and if so, did they possibly deter the perp (by barking) and did Audrey's dogs not bark because they couldn't for whatever reason? Most dogs probably bark whether it is someone they know at the door or not.

 

[Sillybilly]

A's dogs apparently did not bark ... could it be because they knew the visitor(s) very well and when A and the visitor(s) went to the garage to part ways, the dogs didn't hear a thing, but the neighbour's dog heard the vistor/killer leaving.

Drove past 3401 Indian Trail this a.m. and saw the new house ... Indian Trail looking so beautiful today after the storm, especially what once was A's property.

imo

Those are fairly large properties, and I would imagine fairly well insulated, with maybe double-glaze windows. As Audrey's dogs were found inside her home, and depending on which room, upstairs/downstairs, there's a good chance they were barking but neighbours (either sleeping or awake) would not have heard them.

JMO

 

[Sillybilly]

Rbbm

What if (perish the thought) the neighbour's dogs heard the visitor/killer arriving at their house?...

In retrospect,how many neighbours do have dogs and if so, did they possibly deter the perp (by barking) and did Audrey's dogs not bark because they couldn't for whatever reason? Most dogs probably bark whether it is someone they know at the door or not.

<bbm>

ITA rose ... my shepherds bark non-stop until the door is opened and they either recognize the person or i tell them to stop. They know when a leaf moves outside. I'm pretty sure the dogs would have heard someone arriving at the house before a visitor even got to the door.

Speaking of which, apparently PK always entered through the garage. If if it was someone who did not know Audrey, surely they would have gone to her main/front door and not to the garage door. If LV did not have the garage code, which entrance did she normally arrive at, and how would Audrey know when LV arrived at the house? IOW, if there was no forced entry and all other doors in the house were locked from the inside, was the perp someone who knew that Audrey used the garage to enter and exit the house? I get the feeling the answer to this could be how LE determined the perp is someone known to Audrey, rather than a stranger.

 

[colette]

Audrey could have opened the garage herself and the killer took advantage and rushed in. She might have wanted to take out trash, or a number of other reasons to open the garage door.