CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #6

[No_Stone_Unturned]

I'm also confused about this (doesn't take much to confuse me! :rocker:

PK said the bench was right behind the Camaro. Wouldn't that indicate that Audrey either:

- had to move the bench each time she backed the car out of the garage?

- or, she ran right over the bench with her car (and we KNOW that never happened!)

Apparently it was raining on the morning PK discovered the body. I have no idea how/why that's important but it just came to mind.

:twocents:

 

[greenthumb]

I can't load the picture, but A's car looks like it is being taken away from the right hand garage.

In another pic, a LE officer is standing outside the garage, looking into the left hand garage closest to the house.

imo

Thank you. So, maybe AG kept the car in the bay furthest from the house? If so, then presumably it would be that door, on the right, that would be raised by the opener and where PK would enter the garage. AG's body may have been in the other half of the garage somewhere, then.

I am wondering if AG was trying to get back to the door into the house when attacked.

 

[greenthumb]

I'm also confused about this (doesn't take much to confuse me! :rocker:

PK said the bench was right behind the Camaro. Wouldn't that indicate that Audrey either:

- had to move the bench each time she backed the car out of the garage?

- or, she ran right over the bench with her car (and we KNOW that never happened!)

Apparently it was raining on the morning PK discovered the body. I have no idea how/why that's important but it just came to mind.

:twocents:

Yes... I cannot grasp where that bench was, either. I don't know if it is important or not, but it is troublesome that we can't figure that out, isn't it?

It does not make sense that she would move the bench to use the car, of course... but if the bench was 'behind' the car and AG could sit there and look out at the yard, then where exactly was it? I think we are missing something about the layout of the garage, perhaps? dunno.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Ok, maybe this is 'way out there' but I've been wondering about AG's alias 'Baryon'... why might she have chosen that?

The definition of a baryon is "a composite subatomic particle made up of three quarks".

Do you suppose that AG identified with this because she was made up of three identities? We know that she changed her name in her early years - so we know of two identities (unless I have forgotten about another that others here have discovered?) Do we know of a third?

I'm back to that 'mystery' that I feel was part of AG's life - we know she was mysterious even to her last husband, who did not know she had been married previously, that she had changed her name, etc. And that she was very protective of her 'real' name, not wanting it used online, in emails, etc. So... might there be another 'identity' that we don't know about?

I know what you mean here. An FBI guy once said - "Know your victim and you'll find the killer".

Lately, I've been wondering about AG's past life as well.

She had THREE husbands.

Was she leading a double-life? Was she the upstanding golfer/teacher/homeowner/friend/neighbour/etc. but was leading another life at the same time?

There had to be a *reason* why she refused to be located online. I also am very careful online, but my friends are able to e-mail me using my full name!

I don't know. There's something we're missing here.

Oh, and when PK was helping AG de-clutter her house did he perhaps find something about her past? Did this outrage her? Did she set him up?

???????????????????????????????????

 

[greenthumb]

From JW -

He spoke of a vicious stabbing but did not talk about other weapons — at least one other had been used — or the nature of the “sexual component” (it had included a perverse act that went beyond a conventional assault; the killer had taken something from the victim as though making off with a souvenir.)

Contemplating the ripped stretch pants, pooled blood - and wondering if the 'souvenir' was somewhat like a scalping, but not of the head? Trying to put it delicately. That would be perverse, but depending on how the clothing was laying on the body, it may not be immediately seen by PK but would seem horrific to LE when discovered.

Consider the definition of 'scalp' -

A portion of this skin with its attached hair, cut from a body especially as a battle trophy or as proof in claiming a bounty.

Sorry, perhaps this is inappropriate to post? If this is offensive to you, my apologies and please alert mods, and mods please feel free to delete this post.

 

[Sillybilly]

PK was answering to my question on post #244, which was a couple of posts above his.
As an aside, to me it would make more sense to just open one of the doors we see on the back of the house, turn on porch light, than opening the garage doors to have a smoke. That area must be so dark at night, I find it hard to believe Audrey would open the garage door to sit there all alone, but that's just my opinon :moo:

Thank you for that bold clarification.

 

[dotr]

I know what you mean here. An FBI guy once said - "Know your victim and you'll find the killer".

Lately, I've been wondering about AG's past life as well.

She had THREE husbands.

Was she leading a double-life? Was she the upstanding golfer/teacher/homeowner/friend/neighbour/etc. but was leading another life at the same time?

There had to be a *reason* why she refused to be located online. I also am very careful online, but my friends are able to e-mail me using my full name!

I don't know. There's something we're missing here.

Oh, and when PK was helping AG de-clutter her house did he perhaps find something about her past? Did this outrage her? Did she set him up?

???????????????????????????????????

Three husbands that we know of ....could there be any others?
Thinking of secrecy and names, might there be an awkward legal situation concerning names and termination of marriages and re-marriages?

 

[greenthumb]

Three husbands that we know of ....could there be any others?
Thinking of secrecy and names, might there be an awkward legal situation concerning names and termination of marriages and re-marriages?

Good thought, dotr! Do any of you more experienced sleuthers have any idea how to track such a thing down?

Sillybilly - you are likely the most familiar with the timeline... do you think there are unexplained 'gaps' that may suggest a time period when AG may have been operating under another identity or in another marriage that we don't know about?

 

[Sillybilly]

Good thought, dotr! Do any of you more experienced sleuthers have any idea how to track such a thing down?

Sillybilly - you are likely the most familiar with the timeline... do you think there are unexplained 'gaps' that may suggest a time period when AG may have been operating under another identity or in another marriage that we don't know about?

Nothing that jumps out at me greenthumb, but here are extractions from the timeline that relate to what/when Audrey used various names. I've removed all extraneous info from the entries:

1953 Audrey Bohnart

1958 Audrey Bohnart

1957 – 1964 Sometime during these years Audrey Blake

1963 voters list shows Audrey Blake

1964 Audrey enrolled at McMaster University (don’t know what name at that time)

1964 Audrey met Allan Gleave

1965 voters list Audrey Doveika

1964 – 1967 for 2 summers Audrey Doveika was at AECL

1967 in August, Audrey in Hamilton newspaper re building her own tv (don’t know what name at that time). The picture showed a wedding ring on her finger which she supposedly wore even when single

1969 Audrey married and became Audrey Gleave

1972 Hamilton voters list shows Gleave, Allan, engineer and Gleave, Mrs. Audrey, teacher


HTH

 

[LeftCoaster]

<all rsbm>

1957 – 1964 Sometime during these years Audrey Blake

1963 voters list shows Audrey Blake

IIRC, according to Jon Wells, Audrey worked at Bell ca. 1960 (don't know for how long); at this time, it was quite an entry-level career opportunity for young women. Seems separation from Mr. B. would have occurred around there. It would be worth looking for divorce documents...and if there aren't any, giving some thought to what was going on in this time period. Might explain Audrey's reluctance to 'fess up to husband #3.

1964 Audrey enrolled at McMaster University (don’t know what name at that time)

1964 Audrey met Allan Gleave

1965 voters list Audrey Doveika

1964 – 1967 for 2 summers Audrey Doveika was at AECL

1967 in August, Audrey in Hamilton newspaper re building her own tv (don’t know what name at that time). The picture showed a wedding ring on her finger which she supposedly wore even when single

We don't know how fervent a courtship the Gleaves had in those four years from meeting to marrying - lots of room in there for divorce proceedings (?), dating (?), perhaps Chalk River / Deep River area involvements, and studies at McMaster as a female 'mature' student. Wonder what sources JW tapped for the information he did provide.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Nothing that jumps out at me greenthumb, but here are extractions from the timeline that relate to what/when Audrey used various names. I've removed all extraneous info from the entries:

1953 Audrey Bohnart

1958 Audrey Bohnart

1957 – 1964 Sometime during these years Audrey Blake

1963 voters list shows Audrey Blake

1964 Audrey enrolled at McMaster University (don’t know what name at that time)

1964 Audrey met Allan Gleave

1965 voters list Audrey Doveika

1964 – 1967 for 2 summers Audrey Doveika was at AECL

1967 in August, Audrey in Hamilton newspaper re building her own tv (don’t know what name at that time). The picture showed a wedding ring on her finger which she supposedly wore even when single

1969 Audrey married and became Audrey Gleave

1972 Hamilton voters list shows Gleave, Allan, engineer and Gleave, Mrs. Audrey, teacher


HTH

Thanks SB! So.......are we to assume that:

a) BOHNART = husband #1

b) BLAKE = husband #2

c) GLEAVE = is ovbiously husband #3

Now, regarding AG having had more husbands (as per dotr's suggestion) - *my* gut feeling is saying NO! Not husbands. But, my gut is also telling me that AG perhaps led a double life.

Here's a little story to help explain myself:

A number of years ago I learned that many/most/perhaps all women who take sex calls from men on those 900 - phone lines are aged 70 - 90! YES!! It's true! And the men (hopefully) have no idea that they are not speaking with a little 18-year-old sweet thang. It's great money for the women, it's safe, and the women really don't have to go near the men! (Hey, what could be better? :floorlaugh

Would Audrey (or Baryon) have been into this type of work? PK wouldn't know, LV wouldn't know. Heck, even the MEN wouldn't know.......unless perhaps one did know. And struck out.............

Did any of this make sense? :waitasec:

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

More questions about AG's life/house:

- did she only have telephones which were attached to a wall OR did she have portable, hand-held phones?

- did her house have a basement?

- if she had hand-held phones, did she take one outside when she went for a smoke on the bench?

- did she have a doorbell or did people only knock?

- did she usually keep front and back doors locked while she was home?

Too many things unanswered...................

 

[greenthumb]

<all rsbm>



IIRC, according to Jon Wells, Audrey worked at Bell ca. 1960 (don't know for how long); at this time, it was quite an entry-level career opportunity for young women. Seems separation from Mr. B. would have occurred around there. It would be worth looking for divorce documents...and if there aren't any, giving some thought to what was going on in this time period. Might explain Audrey's reluctance to 'fess up to husband #3.

According to SB's very helpful timeline -

in 1958, AG is shown on voters list as Mrs. Audrey BOHNART, a student, living with her parents - so it seems that although she still carries his surname, she is separated from Mr. B by that time

by 1960 - she's working at Bell (but we don't know under what name, do we?)

by 1963 - she's shown on voters list as Audrey BLAKE, again a student and living with her parents

So between 1958 and 1963, she has married Larry Blake, quit school, worked at Bell, separated from Mr. Blake, and gone back to school, right? She did not enroll at McMaster until 1964 - so where was she a student in 1958 (at age 21) and again in 1963 (at age 26)?

 

[LeftCoaster]

Thanks SB! So.......are we to assume that:

a) BOHNART = husband #1

b) BLAKE = husband #2

c) GLEAVE = is ovbiously husband #3

Now, regarding AG having had more husbands (as per dotr's suggestion) - *my* gut feeling is saying NO! Not husbands. But, my gut is also telling me that AG perhaps led a double life.

Here's a little story to help explain myself:

A number of years ago I learned that many/most/perhaps all women who take sex calls from men on those 900 - phone lines are aged 70 - 90! YES!! It's true! And the men (hopefully) have no idea that they are not speaking with a little 18-year-old sweet thang. It's great money for the women, it's safe, and the women really don't have to go near the men! (Hey, what could be better? :floorlaugh

Would Audrey (or Baryon) have been into this type of work? PK wouldn't know, LV wouldn't know. Heck, even the MEN wouldn't know.......unless perhaps one did know. And struck out.............

Did any of this make sense? :waitasec:

:floorlaugh: Makes sense, alright (in a really high-level way, mind you)!

I have an impression of Audrey as being a little too socially awkward for such an activity, but have to admit it would explain various accounts of her avoiding people, or making sure certain of her friends weren't aware of certain of her other friends, and the rigid insistence on no names in emails. Hey :waitasec: - maybe not 900 lines, but ONLINE is not out of the realm of possibility. And it could have been more of a geek thing than sex-related (although, now that I think of it, the nature of her murder)....

Jeez, NSU, you might be onto something here!

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

I'm missing some info here:

- where did AG receive her undergrad degree(s)?

- where did she do her teaching degree(s)?

Since she was living at home, I suspect her undergrad stuff was done at McMaster. I don't think McMaster had a teaching degree programme then. Did she go to the U of Toronto for the B.Ed degree?

:twocents:

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

:floorlaugh: Makes sense, alright (in a really high-level way, mind you)!

I have an impression of Audrey as being a little too socially awkward for such an activity, but have to admit it would explain various accounts of her avoiding people, or making sure certain of her friends weren't aware of certain of her other friends, and the rigid insistence on no names in emails. Hey :waitasec: - maybe not 900 lines, but ONLINE is not out of the realm of possibility. And it could have been more of a geek thing than sex-related (although, now that I think of it, the nature of her murder)....

Jeez, NSU, you might be onto something here!

OK, please let me explain further how this phone thing works::rocker:

- the women do it from the comfort of their own homes

- they can be in cosy flannel PJ's and watching 'I Love Lucy' in between calls!

- the reason older women are ideal for this job is experience lacking in a younger woman!

In case any of you are getting a *certain* picture of me :floorlaugh: ......my info is from a 65-year old female drug addict I met at CAMH. And......I just adore her!!

My info came a few years ago so today it certainly could be one of the 'pay-per-call/view' things online!

 

[greenthumb]

I'm missing some info here:

- where did AG receive her undergrad degree(s)?

- where did she do her teaching degree(s)?

Since she was living at home, I suspect her undergrad stuff was done at McMaster. I don't think McMaster had a teaching degree programme then. Did she go to the U of Toronto for the B.Ed degree?

:twocents:

I don't know about teaching secondary school, but to teach elementary school back in those days, I think you needed a diploma from a 'teacher's college', and Hamilton had one, that two of my sisters attended in the early 60's some time. Not sure if that bears any relevance?

 

[greenthumb]

:floorlaugh: Makes sense, alright (in a really high-level way, mind you)!

I have an impression of Audrey as being a little too socially awkward for such an activity, but have to admit it would explain various accounts of her avoiding people, or making sure certain of her friends weren't aware of certain of her other friends, and the rigid insistence on no names in emails. Hey :waitasec: - maybe not 900 lines, but ONLINE is not out of the realm of possibility. And it could have been more of a geek thing than sex-related (although, now that I think of it, the nature of her murder)....

Jeez, NSU, you might be onto something here!

Might explain why she didn't want folks feeling comfortable just coming to her door to visit any old time they wanted, too - she might be in the middle of something she could not interrupt! - so maybe that is why she did not encourage visitors much.

If she did do this, there must be great $ in it? so where would that $ have gone? Why would she have needed that $? That just leads me to more questions about her private life - did she have an addiction of some kind?

Yikes.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Yes, GT - for elementary school teaching one might go to Stratford back then. But for secondary schools and up, one must have a one or two year degree from a University. A Bachelor of Education.

:twocents:



--------------

ETA: But elementary school teachers USED TO BE ABLE to get into the high school professions with 'teachers college' but they were then asked to do their B.Ed's in the summers.

And I'm sorry GT, I didn't know that Hamilton had a teacher's college.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

And I asked about having a basement at AG's house because I know another aging prostitute who turned her basement into an S&M place.

OK, I'm finished with spilling the beans about the women with whom I've crossed paths at CAMH and other facilties!!

Just really tossing out ideas..........

:twocents: