CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #6

[Chorley8]

Can you clarify: were there two real estate agents one for buyer one for seller? And as I posted not sure who was a friend of whom - sorry being a bit dense!

 

[patchtimes]

Just saw that I overlooked that last part of the question. I'm not sure if the real estate agent was with Remax or not, I really don't know. But she is an old friend of the wife.

 

[patchtimes]

I'm really not sure who the agent was for the seller, or if there was one. Just know that the wife used her friend as her agent.

 

[Chorley8]

I don't really remember anyone (here) suggesting the people moved into the house were the perpetrators of the crime. Maybe I missed a post somewhere. Could someone with a financial motive use someone they know or as in our example a neighbour in need of a property closer than a 10 minute drive from their grandchildren to sell a property well of course. I think that has been considered here - I am sure it was considered (it would seem rejected) by LE.

Dogs: thanks your posts has made me wonder why other people didn't hear their own dogs barking. Surely other people's dogs would hear the Fergusons dogs barking since we have to assume the Fergusons dogs hear Audreys barking or if they were drugged heard trouble at the house.

Kind of a little extension of the Conan Doyle story where the mysterious thing is that a dog doesn't bark. Here some bark others don't most tellingly they don't match each other's barks which in my experience in the country yours may be different they do. Assuming other people have dogs. (I had forgotten to think like a dog LOL).

Your posts are provocative for which thanks: the F. family both got an A Grace email and their dogs barked. I wonder if the grandparents whose kids bought the house have a dog?

It would be great to know if the agent was from Remax I have a secondary reason for asking nothing to do with this particular agent who I am sure is fine sounds like a good friend to involve herself so quickly in taking care of the problem of people not wanting to move into the house of a murder victim by getting someone with children needing to be closer to grandparents to move into it ASAP - helped that executor as well it must have been a chore to chuck all of her friends belongings and get that dump torn down and get the well put through.

If we are dealing with the mentally ill living in sheds who are o disturbing to others scaring them so they call LE and are disappointed when LE does not check out their sheds or if were are dealing with <MODSNIP> and knifes and beats them to death across the road I don't quite see yet how if I was a woman I would be so sure that Audrey must have been the PARTICULAR target of the itinerant madmen and the deviant sex murderer. Respectfully, still trying to understand that.

It is certainly true: if Audrey was a severe hoarder to the degree you mention it would explain a lot of things - and maybe her friends are being very gentle with her memory.

(Maybe)

 

[colette]

Thank you Patchtimes for all your inside information. Welcome to Websleuths!

I was the first one here to suggest that Audrey was a hoarder. It was a guess due to the fact that she did not let friends into her home, had her windows covered and was intensely private. I would think that Audrey mostly collected books and reading material. She was described as a book lover and library junkie by friends.

http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/2011/01/06/mourners-united-in-grief-for-slain-retired-teacher

 

[Chorley8]

Please can we separate the words collector and hoarder they are not the same thing. Audrey even had a library - Wells said she used it less in later days but really what is the evidence of that? Collecting books and reading material does not a hoarder make. Think of the three things we know about: her yard her car and her garage and I should add her mind - I don't see evidence of clutter and P.K. did not really emphasize that.

A hoarder is someone who collects times a person would usually consider frivolous or useless. I respect the evidence that Audrey hung onto things a bit but to the point that the house was falling apart - I don't believe it. I mean linoleum can be replaced.

The more people on this thread the better but hopefully we won't get overwhelmed by things heard from a friend of a friend - who may have a motive for saying it in the first place. The motive does not have to be criminal - could be just self-serving. Also people could get the idea FROM this thread - thinking of C.'s claim she knew because the curtains were kept closed or something - someone looking for alibis could learn from that - then use it. Now the list of suspects is very large so I am not directly aiming this at anyone.

The thing that disturb me is Audrey's apparent fear of something what happened to her and the response by friends after her death.

Highly disturbing.

By the way surely Audrey did not only own empty egg cartons. What happened to her car, her new oven all her books her computers her no doubt numerous other belongings? Did SV find some mementos to give to members of the coffee klatch? How about a nice photo or two? Some books? Books donated to the Westdale library or Lyndon?

Something is wrong now whether it is criminal or moral or both I don't though I have a very very strong opinion.


Patchtimes did you know whether neighbours were surprised that Audrey made no provision for her dogs?

I think the hoarding diagnosis is used just to make her seem crazy minimize the value of her belongings justify the shabby treatment of everything she had built in her life. Don't believe what we are being told.

Spring drive.

 

[colette]

Hoarders can collect anything, not just things a person would usually consider frivolous or useless. There are book, dolls , shoes, and clothes hoarders ect. There are also levels of hoarding. "Collecting books and reading material does not a hoarder make", but if it takes over your home and you have paths to walk then there is a problem.

I believe that she was a hoarder, you can believe she was not.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Oh dear......I don't know what to say.

First, welcome Patchtimes.

I will not get into rumour about Audrey's personal life. Being a 'hoarder/collector' has nothing to do with being brutally murdered. Nothing at all. It's something like saying "If you wear shorts and a low-cut top in August you deserved to be raped". Audrey is the victim here so could we please remember that.

(There.....little rant over!)

<MODSNIP> - I do believe that. It doesn't go along with PK's saying the the scene wasn't too gruesome or however he worded it. Hrab worded it correctly.

About LE not searching everyone and everywhere........is this saying that there's no way this crime will ever be solved? And I refuse to get back to implying that DLS is the killer. I simply will not go there. He was wrongly accused and he's free.

Some of this 'new info' is rumour and some of it sounds possible. But until LE solves this crime we have an innocent 73 year old woman brutally murdered and her killer is out there somewhere.

Just the facts, mam!

Facts:

- Audrey was killed......horrifically

- there is/are POI(s)

- there are discrepencies in a polygraph

- there is an eye-witness who said the crime scene wasn't too gruesome while a seasoned police officer said it was the most brutal crime scene of his career

- there are many unanswered questions

I'll be back later as I try to digest all of this..........

:scared:

-----------------

ETA: Do we really care/need to know that Audrey's floors were not 'Martha Stewart perfect'? I think we all had the picture that Audrey entertained visitors like LV on the bench and we all knew there must be a reason for doing so. And Audrey let a teenaged boy (PK) into her home because he'd be less judgemental, less 'Home Beautiful perfect' in the way he saw things. We get that bit.

What we need to help learn is this - who and where is the killer. What was his motivation. Why has he not been caught by LE. Are LE watching the POI(s). Many more important issues at hand here.

:twocents:

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Quoted from Chorley8:

<<< The more people on this thread the better but hopefully we won't get overwhelmed by things heard from a friend of a friend - who may have a motive for saying it in the first place. The motive does not have to be criminal - could be just self-serving. Also people could get the idea FROM this thread - thinking of C.'s claim she knew because the curtains were kept closed or something - someone looking for alibis could learn from that - then use it. Now the list of suspects is very large so I am not directly aiming this at anyone. >>>


I'm also welcoming more people helping out with Audrey's case. That said, I'm having difficulties with so-called "info" which is third/fourth/fifth-hand coming from a friend of a neighbour who has a cousin in Timbuktu who overheard that Audrey's habits and lifestyle were such-and-so.

<MODSNIP>

Why didn't PK see something along these lines?

PK's info about finding the body (from my memory):

- she didn't seem to be dead, she might have slipped on a patch of ice

- the scene wasn't very horrible

- there was some blood

- she was wearing her jacket, ripped pants and running shoes

- Audrey's eyes were wide open, almost looking at PK

- he then called 911 for help

- the 911 people asked him to go back to "make sure she was dead"

- emergency people arrived

Those are really only the facts that we were given.

And Hrab said it was a gruesome, horrific crime scene.

:twocents:

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

And finally to Patchtimes:

Could you please ask WS to get you labelled (for lack of a better word! :blushing as a "Verified Insider" to this case?

I think that would help us all feel better and perhaps react better.

Thanks,
Stone

 

[dotr]

Audrey may have been seen as private and unknowable, but that may be the case because nobody wanted to know. imo, seems lots of sending away, taking away of "parts".


http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2215939-who-is-audrey-gleave/

" She worked two summers for Atomic Energy of Canada at the nuclear laboratories in Chalk River, 180 kilometres west of Ottawa. A densely academic article published in 1967 lists &#8220;A. Doveika&#8221; as one of the authors. The title: Compendium of Thermal Neutron Capture Ray Measurements.

In August 1967, she was featured in a Hamilton Spectator article headlined Colour TV Set Easy To Build. It was in the early days of colour television when a new one cost a small fortune &#8212; $1,200, or about $8,000 in 2011 dollars. Audrey had sent away for parts and put it together over the course of a month, following a manual.

She was described in the article as a &#8220;cheerful blonde brandishing her soldering iron &#8230; glibly reeling off technical terms&#8221; as her Siamese cat, Ming, watched. She was quoted saying anyone could put a TV together: &#8220;Anyone who has the courage to pick up a screwdriver. That&#8217;s the beauty of it. Just read the instructions.&#8221;

She added that she had a practical reason for building her own TV: &#8220;Now I can make my own repairs.&#8221;

A photo with the story showed Audrey working on her invention in a striped dress, a ring on her wedding finger. She used to wear one, even though she was single at the time. Sometimes she wore a gold snake ring. Why she did that, Allan was never sure.

Her career as a nuclear physicist did not pan out, either by choice or necessity. One family member said she was denied a permanent job at Chalk River because of concerns about the consequences of working in a nuclear energy environment if she were to become pregnant.

She did not complete her master&#8217;s program. Instead, she announced to Allan one day she would teach high school science. There was no discussion about her reasons."

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Quoted from Patchtimes:

<<< Obviously the couple are not happy about the circumstances under which they moved into the house but they're not afraid. I think they feel pretty certain that the murderer knew Audrey and there was a motive. >>>



Did LE give the couple reassurances that there is no danger to them or to anyone else? Did LE tell the couple that the killing was strictly personal between Audrey and her killer?

Frankly, that's what I've come to believe. Audrey knew her killer. There was no forced entry. For some ungodly reason, Audrey let her killer in!!

:twocents:

 

[dotr]

Young enough!
http://www.cp24.com/news/arrest-made-after-61-year-old-woman-robbed-sexually-assaulted-1.1274080
" A man accused of robbing and sexually assaulting a 61-year-old woman early Wednesday morning has been arrested and charged, according to Toronto Police.

The woman was parked outside a coffee shop at Finch Avenue and Weston Road at around 5:15 a.m. when a man approached her car and got inside.

Police say the suspect demanded the woman hand over her money and credit cards before instructing her to drive away from the scene to a secluded area near Jane Street and St. Clair Avenue West.

The woman told police she was then sexually assaulted

Read more: http://www.cp24.com/news/arrest-mad...ed-sexually-assaulted-1.1274080#ixzz2Sp5xi0Q9

 

[Jade]

Thank you for joining patchtimes! Welcome!

I hate to appear as a dog with a bone but if you look around WS you will see that no matter is too small to discuss.

I wonder if the dogs contributed to the path in the linoleum.

I seem to recall that they were confined in one way or another in the kitchen. Two big active dogs can beat quite a trail. I can picture excited anticipation of feeding time in the kitchen taking its toll as well.

To me how the alleged collected or saved items came into the home is of interest.

Cotsco?

It wouldn’t take long to accumulate given the quantity in the packaging and with what I presume [from my perch here in the sunny south] to be a long winters worth of supplies.

Did she get frequent deliveries I wonder?

Thinking of the fading against the walls brings to mind my inherited oversize furniture lining the rooms of my home. Gosh I could use a bit of a clean out myself…

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Hmm ... where the Bosmas live is just south of Book Rd. That's the same road Audrey would have been on if she made that trip to the vet the last day she was seen alive.

This is the map jash posted a link to over in Tim's thread:

https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=Trini...Hamilton,+Hamilton+Division,+Ontario&t=m&z=11

Now I see that homicide LE are involved in the Bosma case.

How many killers could there be running around Ancaster?

Hmmmm............

:twocents:

 

[patchtimes]

Hi there,

I'll try to address some of your comments/concerns as best I can, but as I said before, it really is just speculation from here on out. Although you could say that all of what I've offered is speculation, as I will be the first to admit that all of my information is second-hand. I trust it, but I can understand if you don't. Whether you do or not is totally up to you.

I joined here a few years ago with some interest in the case as I live nearby. I seem to have forgotten about the site quickly enough, but was drawn back with the recent disappearance of Timothy Bosma, who was a friend of many people I know. I decided to see if anything was going on with the Gleave case and was surprised to see that there was still so much discussion happening. I read through some of the more recent posts, and I noticed there were some questions that I could answer, even though my answers are not verifiable.

The hoarding/collecting thing. It's not my intention to assassinate Audrey's character, but I do think it is important to note that she might have been a hoarder. Or sure, she could have been collecting a lot of stuff. To be honest, I doubt she was the type of hoarder who was collecting piles of garbage, so maybe this does mean she was a collector. I can't really speak much to the distinction. Whether it was hoarding or collecting, she had a lot of stuff that interfered with her passage through the house.

There is the whole linoleum floors thing. Yes, that could have been dogs being corralled through a particular spot. Although why would she want to ruin her floor like that? I vividly remember the wife's descriptions of the house because as I said, I was interested already in the case. The wife also described the dining room, stating that you could see where piles of things had been stacked against the wall by the varying coloration in the wallpaper. She also said, and I think I did not mention this before, but the hanging light was caked in dust. As in, had not been dusted in years. As in, it could not be easily accessed to dust it.

True, the discoloration might have been from furniture but given everything else, I just don't believe it to be the case. If she collected a lot of books, she might have stacked books against the wall perhaps.

The general description that I took away from that conversation with the wife was that the house was extremely dirty and that there was a good deal of evidence that she had been a hoarder/collector.

It does explain why she never let anyone in her house.

As for the handyman, she might have had to let him in to do repairs. The wife mentioned the basement flooding a lot.

I hate to say it, as many of you seem protective over Audrey, but the house itself was not in good condition. Take it or leave it, I am telling you the wife's firsthand account. And I think it is worth considering, and I will tell you why. Hoarding/collecting is often the result of some trauma that has happened, and a defense mechanism against something that makes the person frightened. They are protecting themselves with things. Yes, I am getting a lot of this from the tv shows and am not an expert, but this often appears to be the case. To me, Audrey hoarding suggests there was a prior trauma in her life, and remember she told her brother in law that she felt she would be raped and murdered. Perhaps the murderer was someone involved in this past trauma and came back? Although it does not explain why she would let him in. So many questions, I can see why you all have been discussing it for so long.

As for the LE, I do not believe they ever spoke to the wife or her husband firsthand. I know their whole family had complaints about the LE mishandling things by just not being thorough and not talking to people in the neighbouhood. As for bringing up DLS again, it is not my intention to make him look guilty. I was giving an example as to why the family was unhappy with the LE's investigation.

<MODSNIP>



I would be happy to be verified by the website, although I'm not sure how to do that? I'm new to this site really, I only learned the lingo (ie; LE) by reading some of the posts. I'm also not sure if I could, as I really do only have secondhand information although if it's possible, I will. I understand that you're suspicious that I could be some bored person in Kalamazoo.

I've told you what I know to be true, and I apologize if it contradicts your pre- existing ideas. Certainly, you don't have to accept it and it would not offend me if you didn't.

 

[dotr]

In case I missed your earlier postings, just wanted to say welcome to WS patchtimes!

 

[Jade]

patchtime you make excellent points.

<MODSNIP>

But now this isn&#8217;t the sexual component [thank you No Stone post #991] it&#8217;s the injured in other ways.

She had been stabbed multiple times, injured in other ways police have not specified, and was sexually assaulted.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2182067-a-complicated-vicious-killing/


It would seem to be something that would take some time and confidence that there would be no interruptions.

Either someone so deranged they cared not if someone were to happen by or the perp knew AG didn&#8217;t have random visitors. Or knew her plans for the day.

Course the garage door was probably closed during that portion of the attack since it was apparently closed on the perps exit.

Still a stranger wouldn&#8217;t know that a neighbor was unlikely to drop in unannounced. Unless they had been watching her. Oh lordy.

All imo

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

I was just over in TB's thread. Someone mentioned Powerline Road. Isn't that near Audrey's house?

Could these men have killed and/or stalked Audrey for her beautiful car?

BUT....... then why didn't they steal her car?

Just talking to myself here........

:scared:

 

[colette]

Thank you Patchtime, I am grateful for your input.

<MODSNIP.
The killer most likely felt no one would walk in on the crime as the home was remote, the scene in a garage and Audrey did not have many visitors.