CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #9

[colette]

Allan had not been contacted by Hamilton detectives about the murder. Police would not call Audrey’s ex-husband for five months. Instead he had heard the news when Hamilton Spectator reporter Danielle Wong called him.

Snip by me. Really what kind of investigation waits 5 months to call the ex-husband of the victim????

 

[Pink Panther]

Snip by me. Really what kind of investigation waits 5 months to call the ex-husband of the victim????

Ahem. This one. It seems a bit "bungled" to say the least! Yay! Thanks for opening up the thread again! I'm so happy for Audrey!

 

[Pink Panther]

AG had had a sole wish for Christmas and that was, to bake her a "Texas Stollen" using her own recept of German or so origin. If I remember well, AK the pastry chef was wanted to do this. IMO odd somehow, because AG had a relative new (expensive) oven herself and much more time than the busy working AK. The "Texas Stollen" is something, what I know under the name Christmas Stollen. In an older thread, there was even a recept for that cake (I printed it at that time).
Whether PK brought a whole or a half/a piece of Stollen, we don't know. It doesn't matter. In any case he brought seemingly an extra "Coffee Ring" in addition, very nice of him and his wife AK. IMO very questionable to later eat the same cake, which PK had taken to the "crime and drama scene" (and to tell this to whomever).
<modsnip>

If I remember correctly, he brought her a piece. The reason I remember this is because I thought it was a bit ebinizer-ish. I thought, geez, if you made thing, it's Christmas, bring the whole darned cake…Even if she can't eat the whole thing.

I have never read that he ended up eating it on the way home. Is there a link to this?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

If I remember correctly, he brought her a piece. The reason I remember this is because I thought it was a bit ebinizer-ish. I thought, geez, if you made thing, it's Christmas, bring the whole darned cake&#8230;Even if she can't eat the whole thing.

I have never read that he ended up eating it on the way home. Is there a link to this?

AW: NOT "on the way home", but sometime later.

He says police focused on apparent inconsistencies in his recollection of events, but the shock of seeing his friend's body, and the passage of time, blurred many details for him.

At one point, he said he had carried the cake for Gleave into the garage where he discovered the body, but later said he had left the domed-lid Tupperware in his car the whole time. He's now convinced he must have left the cake in the car.

After he was interviewed by police at the scene of the homicide he drove home and along with Alex ate the cake &#8212; a "Texas stollen" cinnamon and raisin coffee ring cake.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5809219-who-killed-audrey-gleave-/

 

[Woodland]

Found myself surprised at the detail regarding the cake in the latest article. It is significant as far as LE is concerned - not the cake itself, but the details surrounding a piece of cake being introduced to the crime scene and then vanishing.

Do we, or LE, really know if there was a piece of cake on that day? Again, a piece didn't actually have to be there. Jmo.

 

[Sillybilly]

for Pink Panther, your memory about a piece of cake is correct. It was in JW's book:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...caster-ON-30-Dec-2010-6&p=8789647#post8789647

IIRC, PK did say to the effect that some of his words were embellished by reporters.

Obviously LE is interested in any discrepancies told them by anyone they interview, but I guess that's one of the issues LE would like to clarify. IMO, it's not that the cake itself matters so much, but that there seem to be different versions (piece of cake in hand while punching in the code vs the entire cake left in car). Given the shocking circumstances, I can see possibly not recalling whether it was in hand or in the car, but it is difficult to reconcile having no recollection of whether it was just a piece or the entire cake. Given he drove AK to work that morning, presumably she has helped clarify his recollection of what was placed in the car that morning.

As for the cake having been eaten, that explains why (presumably) it was not found at Audrey's or anywhere. Mind you, if it was the entire cake, would be interesting to know the timeframe in which LE investigated its existence. IOW, if it was only within a few hours or the next day, that's a lotta cake to devour in a short timespan.

As posted earlier, the "he drove home and along with Alex ate the cake" can be interpreted either way. Mind you, I guess one could wonder why interject a reference to the drive home that day if the drive itself has nothing to do with the explanation of the cake having been eaten at home after the fact.

Let's bear in mind that, other than PK, we do not have the benefit of any other known players providing us information in this case. If PK is still reading here, he must be shaking his head at what we discuss in such minute detail.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

for Pink Panther, your memory about a piece of cake is correct. It was in JW's book:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...caster-ON-30-Dec-2010-6&p=8789647#post8789647

IIRC, PK did say to the effect that some of his words were embellished by reporters.

Obviously LE is interested in any discrepancies told them by anyone they interview, but I guess that's one of the issues LE would like to clarify. IMO, it's not that the cake itself matters so much, but that there seem to be different versions (piece of cake in hand while punching in the code vs the entire cake left in car). Given the shocking circumstances, I can see possibly not recalling whether it was in hand or in the car, but it is difficult to reconcile having no recollection of whether it was just a piece or the entire cake. Given he drove AK to work that morning, presumably she has helped clarify his recollection of what was placed in the car that morning.

As for the cake having been eaten, that explains why (presumably) it was not found at Audrey's or anywhere. Mind you, if it was the entire cake, would be interesting to know the timeframe in which LE investigated its existence. IOW, if it was only within a few hours or the next day, that's a lotta cake to devour in a short timespan.

As posted earlier, the "he drove home and along with Alex ate the cake" can be interpreted either way. Mind you, I guess one could wonder why interject a reference to the drive home that day if the drive itself has nothing to do with the explanation of the cake having been eaten at home after the fact.

Let's bear in mind that, other than PK, we do not have the benefit of any other known players providing us information in this case. If PK is still reading here, he must be shaking his head at what we discuss in such minute detail.

When PK drove home from the crime scene, AK was working and he was alone in his car. He wouldn't have thought of "eating during the return to his home" but eating at another time later, I believe.
The "Texas Stollen" is a cake, which is much more durable than another cake. Sometimes one eats it with butter on the top, so it is delicious still when weeks old. Therefore (because of more durable) it makes no sense to give AG only some pieces although it was even her favorite cake, IMO.

It is often true that some journalists combine facts in one sentence, which don't belong together at all and are confusing the meaning of it. Not only PK, but I'm too shaking my head repeatedly.

 

[Pink Panther]

I know I read somewhere that he brought her a piece of cake. Let me be more clear. I thought it was cheap and weird. When I have some time I will try to dig back and find where I read that info. I mean no disrespect to PK. It was sweet to bring cake; I would simply have brought the whole thing. That's all.

 

[Sillybilly]

I know I read somewhere that he brought her a piece of cake. Let me be more clear. I thought it was cheap and weird. When I have some time I will try to dig back and find where I read that info. I mean no disrespect to PK. It was sweet to bring cake; I would simply have brought the whole thing. That's all.

Hey Panther ... I gave you the link in the first paragraph of my above post #245. The info you are looking for was on Pg 121 of JW's book "Death's Shadow":

https://books.google.ca/books?id=Hz...4LUeqCFJT8yAGYjIGoDQ#v=onepage&q=cake&f=false

 

[Sillybilly]

When PK drove home from the crime scene, AK was working and he was alone in his car.

<rsbm>

Do you have a link for that FG?

I don't recall seeing anything regarding how long PK was involved with detectives (whether at AG's or the police station) that day, what time AK left work that day, or whether PK picked her up from work, whether he was alone or they were together on a drive home.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/retired-lynden-teacher-found-murdered-in-her-home-1.591182

They say the death of Audrey Gleave, 73, was "savage".
"Audrey has been the victim of a horrendous, vicious attack," Staff-Sgt. Steve Hrab told a news conference Friday. "In the last 10 years I can't think of one that is more horrific."

She had been stabbed several times. Investigators said she suffered significant trauma.

On Friday they removed a white, 2-door car from her garage.


One never can read enough (even if it was exaggerated a little by Hrab).
What did happen with the car before or during the murder ...?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

<rsbm>

Do you have a link for that FG?

I don't recall seeing anything regarding how long PK was involved with detectives (whether at AG's or the police station) that day, what time AK left work that day, or whether PK picked her up from work, whether he was alone or they were together on a drive home.

No, I have no link, I was just assuming that it must have been so. You are right: maybe he wasn't alone.

 

[dotr]

Random speculation.
Could more than 1 person be responsible for, or know the culprit responsible for Audrey's murder?
Wonder what is meant by " cryptic " letter, sounds a little bit threatening, imo.
Still wonder if someone " set up " PK?
What do many consider more valuable than cash? Imo, information, and Audrey was a veritable mint of information..
In an earlier post, it was asked if AG had integrity, considering she went to the trouble of demanding a 100% mark in her course instead of the 99% she received.
Thinking that Audrey would have a great deal of academic integrity.Perhaps, obstinately and infuriatingly so, imo. fwiw.


http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5809219-who-killed-audrey-gleave-/
rbbm.
" As months and years go by people move on, are less inclined to come forward with information.

Her partner on the case, Det. Joe Stewart, chooses his words cautiously but says the murder remains something of a riddle. They have theories, he says, but have to remain objective and not have tunnel vision on one suspect.

The bar they must meet, proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, is a high one, he says.

"There are people of interest who deserve further investigation."

What do they need to break the case?

"People may know things," he says.

Abrams is only a shade more direct.

"Everyone we have talked to has been co-operative but there's a difference between being co-operative and telling the truth," she says.

Detectives continue working the case and receive occasional tips from the public.

They followed-up on a Crime Stoppers tip recently, and also on an anonymous and cryptic letter mailed to a Hamilton Spectator reporter that pointed the finger at two alleged suspects. Neither tip panned out."

 

[Woodland]

Fwiw, never got the so called cryptic letter aspect. From the last article -

They followed-up on a Crime Stoppers tip recently, and also on an anonymous and cryptic letter mailed to a Hamilton Spectator reporter that pointed the finger at two alleged suspects. Neither tip panned out.

What makes me skeptical is, a Crime Stoppers tip is first, an anonymous cryptic letter is second. Would have thought such a letter would be bigger news - makes me question if such a letter was ever received, by a Spec reporter no less. Maybe imo. Maybe inviting more tips imo. Not sure.

More than 1 person involved - check imo.

Setting PK up? - would not put so much as a penny on that thought. Who knew PK was going to show up on 30 Dec in the am? Besides PK and wife? Audrey would have had to pass that info on to someone wanting to kill her on or after 25 Dec imo. According to PK - the 30 Dec arrangement was made on 25 Dec. The arrangement could have been mentioned in passing by AG, PK and AK to family and or friends - which one of those people wanted to kill Audrey?

Imo, whatever was afoot, was in place long before 25 Dec 2010.

 

[Pink Panther]

I still cannot get over how quickly her house was cleared out and sold. Where was LE while this was going on? It doesn't sound like they were involved at all.

 

[whiterhino]

@dotr: Interesting that you mention the possibility of PK being set up bc this same idea entered my mind a few days ago. Also agree w your line of thinking regarding AGs' character/personality. From what I've read about Audrey, she was much like my own grandmother. Often very stubborn & obstinate to the point where you bend to her will bc she won't be denied (saying this as a loving grandaughter lol).

Regarding the "cryptic letter" & Crime Stoppers tip: Wonder who the 2 alleged suspects were/are & alleged by whom? The author of the letter or suspected by LE? Also wonder what info was provided in the Crime Stoppers tip & if any of that info intersects with the letter?

@Woodland: To your question of who else could know that PK was coming over on Dec 30th... Like you say, info mentioned casually. Just as AG mentions in her email (to PK on the 27th) that Lynne is bringing soup, AG could have mentioned PK bringing the cake while Lynne was there. *NOT suggesting or speculating or implicating* just using this as an example to illustrate how easily & casually someone could acquire such information. Similarly, PK could have mentioned the cake to someone who wanted to set him up (altho if a setup, you'd think the killer would be sure to plant DNA to "seal the deal"). Just suggesting alternatives fwiw.

For the sake of repetition:

PK contacts AG on the 25th to arrange "cake delivery" for the 30th.

AG emails PK on 27th to "report" (as per subject line in email) her illness & vent about symptoms, cabin fever & her coffee group meeting. Mentions that she's expecting Lynne to bring soup over shortly.

LE suspect AG is killed the day of the 27th.

PK arrives to AGs' on the 30th to bring the cake/piece of cake & upon entering via AGs' garage, finds AG & calls 911.

I suppose another explanation as to why there was no cake found at AGs' home could be that PK didn't enter the house that day & possibly had no opportunity to leave the cake inside. If PK had entered via a front/back/side entrance with cake in hand, it would seem more likely to find the cake somewhere inside, such as the kitchen counter for example. It appears that PK pretty much opened the garage, saw AG & called 911. Why proceed to go past AGs' body & into the home, to leave cake for someone who clearly wouldn't be eating it? Assuming of course that this timeline of actions & events is accurate & truthful.

Wonder if any touch DNA was gleaned from the "staging"? I am thinking that if someone rips or pulls on an item of clothing, there might be minute trace epithelials (unless of course, gloves are worn)?

@PinkPanther: I agree re- the house being cleared & released so soon, not to mention AGs' cremation not long after the event (seemed a bit fast imho w respect to AG). Too bad Audreys' case itself has not moved as quickly.

Apologies for the lengthy post!

 

[Woodland]

Audrey was suppose to have been a very private person - did not like her e-mail passed around, had friends that witnessed her Will that the executor knew nothing about etc. Wouldn't it be a change for AG to start telling various people what her movements would be in the coming days?

To me, in the latest article, the point about the cake is that it should have been in the givers hand when approaching the house/garage. Left in the car would require returning to the car to retrieve it. Santa doesn't do that.

How many people would Audrey have been willing to confine her dogs for?

Too much coincidence, for me, on a last minute plan or set up. Jmo.

 

[Sillybilly]

Setting PK up? - would not put so much as a penny on that thought. Who knew PK was going to show up on 30 Dec in the am? Besides PK and wife? Audrey would have had to pass that info on to someone wanting to kill her on or after 25 Dec imo.

<rsbm>

Nobody had to know that PK was going to show sometime between Dec 27 - 30 ... they only had to know that PK frequently visited AG and would possibly/likely find the body or report that AG wasn't answering her door. However, for that same person to know that PK was a frequent visitor, presumably they would also know that LV visited AG, so there was no guarantee that it would be PK who found the body.

 

[Sillybilly]

I still cannot get over how quickly her house was cleared out and sold. Where was LE while this was going on? It doesn't sound like they were involved at all.

After LE finished with the crime scene and released it, everything else would be up to the executrix of the Will with no need for LE to be involved in either the cleaning or the sale of the house.

 

[Sillybilly]

Similarly, PK could have mentioned the cake to someone who wanted to set him up (altho if a setup, you'd think the killer would be sure to plant DNA to "seal the deal").

...

I suppose another explanation as to why there was no cake found at AGs' home could be that PK didn't enter the house that day & possibly had no opportunity to leave the cake inside. If PK had entered via a front/back/side entrance with cake in hand, it would seem more likely to find the cake somewhere inside, such as the kitchen counter for example ...

<rsbm>

No need to 'plant' PK's DNA in the home .. by his posts here at WS, he was in pretty much every room in the house. If we're talking DNA planted at the immediate crime scene or on Audrey's body, how would we propose that PK's DNA was obtained for that purpose and by whom? PK indicated the 911 dispatcher asked him to check for a pulse, so that would explain his DNA on a pulse point, but wouldn't necessarily explain it away on other parts of her body or clothing.

Just for the record, we don't know for sure that no cake was found at AG's, but presumably it wasn't, or I doubt LE would have allowed the cake or anything else in the home / at the crime scene to be removed by anyone.