Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #11

[rickcross]

Waddingtons was the appraisal and auction company that visited the Sherman home after the murders.

Amid quiet from high-profile murder probes, family takes back house where Shermans died

They appraise high-end valuables. They may have been there to appraise items in the home, but I think they could have been there with an insurance adjuster as well to appraise missing items. (Not one word about Sherman valuables auctioned.)
Home — Waddingtons.ca

Here’s why I think that: (bbm)



Barry and Honey Sherman’s neighbours cite mysterious 911 call, visitor on day before billionaires found dead | The Star


New sub-zero appliances in a landfill amongst many other items? That’s at odds with having items appraised and sold as part of the estate.

It’s also at odds with what we know of their daughter Alex and Honey’s charity work.

My impression is that it was an item or items that led to their deaths. Destroying what housed the possible motive may have brought relief to their loved ones.

I love your thinking, but why would an appraiser go to the home to appraise items that weren't there?

 

[ldlager]

Just imagine though, the context of those 127 interviews LE conducted during those first six weeks prior to the official announcement. At the time the media was rife with m/s rumours which the family was incensed over considering in the first few days, a proper investigation hadn’t yet been completed. The cause of the sudden deaths was known, both died by ligature neck compression but LE wasn’t saying anything more than that.

If those 127 interviews began, say on Dec 15th and continued to the day before the PC on Jan 26th, appx 6 weeks/6 days a week - 127 interviews in 36 days is a lot of dedicated discussion taking place. I’d bet anything each of those 127 people who knew the Shermans well were asked what they thought might’ve happened and were told by LE the investigation into the official manner of death was not yet fully concluded.

Of those 127 interviews, wouldn’t it be fascinating to have been a mouse in the corner of the room to learn how many expressed thoughts such as “It had to be murder, Barry would never ever harm his wife nor take his own life, he had everything to live for” as opposed to “m/s sure, I saw another side of the Barry. He was cruel, mean, heartless. He knew everybody hated him and he was capable of offing himself, along with Honey just for spite”

So then I imagine....LE knew the deaths were a double homicide from at the onset because the Ontario Coroner and team of pathologists immediately noticed marking on their wrists to indicate they’d been bound and the neck markings didn’t align properly with either death being caused by hanging from the railing....I’m just imagining this as an example.

But LE wanted to hear what those 127 people thought without anyone being influenced one way or another by official findings.

The value of LE withholding the manner of death, double homicide, why I think it was a highly effective strategy - each of the 127 LE chose to talk to believed at the time their opinion was considered important. As no official homicide investigation was taking place, they were free to just talk. Therefore I think it parted the waters early on since LE was able to determine who fully encouraged a homicide investigation versus others who hoped the file got stamped “case closed”. The killer would most likely fall within the later group.

Whether or not the killer was one of those first 127 or if anything was gained, at this point in time we just don’t know.

But much like a poker player, LE is under no obligation whatsoever to immediately reveal their hand. They don’t care if the public is immediately informed of information, especially if withholding it might further their investigation. Even if unsourced rumours abound, it’s not their job to police the media. Their primary focus is to accumulate sufficient evidence in order to arrest somebody. IMO that’s how it should be.

Until we have an opportunity to know what’s on the inside of this case - which probably wouldn’t happen until a trial occurs - I’m not ready to believe this investigation was botched at all. Because I think LE hoped it was to their advantage for the killer/s to think it was.

Misty we already know LE made some serious errors such as letting an apotex employee access the crime scene; not ensuring all people accessing the crime scene wore protective clothing to not disturb evidence; not checking or collecting evidence on a timely basis (videos from apotex and neighbors, real estate agent dna/shoes, etc), and others. Whether these and other errors will impact the ability to secure a conviction remains to be determined.

 

[rickcross]

One reason I’ve believed the murders were targeted was because of the timing. Within only a few days Honey was leaving for Florida, then Barry was following her there shortly thereafter, both not returning until mid January. But as the home was listed for sale, were they intending to return to that same home, we don’t know but maybe they hoped for a quick sale and already made plans to move into a condo temporarily while their new home was being built. Maybe the murderer thought about that possibility too.

Even if the killer wasn’t aware of the Florida departure dates, most people are creatures of habit and the Shermans may well have been spending Christmas’s for years in Florida with family members flying there to join them.

That’s why this case still reminds me a lot of the Liknes/O’Brien murders where it was discovered Garland had developed and nourished a longstanding sick and compulsive obsession over the couple, including salivating about inflicting various methods of torture. It seemed he spent years preparing for the murder right down to studying their door locks, probably the house plans too, to visions of inflicting pain and causing death secreted in his head even though he was receiving active treatment by a psychiatrist..... but it was impending change - the families estate sale and plans to relocate that motivated him to follow through.

That strikes me as a possible similarity in the Sherman homicides as well - the significance of the timing, their home sale, travel plans, possible impending move posed a type of now or never situation. JMO

I'm a person that believes in statistics. You will always be able to find instances of oddball crimes, but quite frankly those are one in a million occurrences. When you have a crime like this the odds are 99.9% that the motive involved one of three things, sex, drugs or money. You can argue that it may have been a personal vendetta, but that would likely have been the result of one of those three things. My gut also tells me that sex and drugs have nothing to do with this case, so I'd be very comfortable betting this was about money. I also believe that there had to be some sort of monetary benefit to whoever did this. For instance, Barry was not known for writing contracts. He would front money to people on a handshake. If one of these partners killed Barry, the handshake agreement would die with him.

I agree with your idea about timing, albeit for different reasons. It had been all over the news about Barry's recent court victory over the cousins, and his further lawsuit that would see them pay Barry's legal expenses. I believe the timing may have simply been designed to immediately throw shade at the cousins, especially the outspoken Kerry Winter.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I love your thinking, but why would an appraiser go to the home to appraise items that weren't there?

They would be the experts on assessing the current value of missing items for insurance purposes.

 

[rickcross]

Misty we already know LE made some serious errors such as letting an apotex employee access the crime scene; not ensuring all people accessing the crime scene wore protective clothing to not disturb evidence; not checking or collecting evidence on a timely basis (videos from apotex and neighbors, real estate agent dna/shoes, etc), and others. Whether these and other errors will impact the ability to secure a conviction remains to be determined.

These to me are all reasons why I think the initial investigation was leaning towards murder/suicide. Not just in the first hours either, I think the honestly were convinced it was M/S for weeks.

 

[ldlager]

I doubt if burglary was the goal. The elaborate staging does not indicate burglary.

Think of what they did to poor Tim Bosma just to steal his truck. They could have just killed him and dumped his body somewhere. But they didn’t. What they did to him doesn’t indicate a robbery also.
We dont know what was happening in that house that made the perps tie them up to a railing. But I’m not sure we can assume or determine that because they were tied to a railing that it must be a planned, targeted murder.

 

[rickcross]

They would be the experts on assessing the current value of missing items for insurance purposes.

How can you assess the value of something that isn't there? They'd already know the value of any missing jewelry or art as it would be itemized on their policy.

 

[rickcross]

Think of what they did to poor Tim Bosma just to steal his truck. They could have just killed him and dumped his body somewhere. But they didn’t. What they did to him doesn’t indicate a robbery also.
We dont know what was happening in that house that made the perps tie them up to a railing. But I’m not sure we can assume or determine that because they were tied to a railing that it must be a planned, targeted murder.

What they did to Bosma was done to eliminate any evidence that a body would provide. Simple as that. Not to say that Smich and Millard didn't enjoy the task, but there was solid reasoning behind it. What happened at the Sherman home makes no logical sense whatsoever.

 

[ldlager]

I understand that totally, but in this case, if it were a suicide the COD would have been ligature neck compression. Its not like the COD was something different. I'm just saying that since we know Barry died by hanging on the railing, how would a coroner know if he did it himself or if someone held him at gun point and made him hang himself? Either there was a big piece of evidence that allowed them to come to this conclusion, which I doubt given the amount of time it took to come to that conclusion, or the decision was based on the opinion of one or more of the investigators. What we do know is that more than one reporter's police source was shocked at the announcement. I'm not saying that is what happened, but it certainly is within the realm of possibility that police simply made the wrong call. Its not like TPS hasn't made the wrong call many times before.

RBBM. In fact, wasn't it disclosed fairly early on, based on the coroners findings, that they did NOT “ die from hanging on the railing”, and in fact a different ligature than the belts was used to kill them?

 

[deugirtni]

I understand that totally, but in this case, if it were a suicide the COD would have been ligature neck compression. Its not like the COD was something different. I'm just saying that since we know Barry died by hanging on the railing, how would a coroner know if he did it himself or if someone held him at gun point and made him hang himself? Either there was a big piece of evidence that allowed them to come to this conclusion, which I doubt given the amount of time it took to come to that conclusion, or the decision was based on the opinion of one or more of the investigators. What we do know is that more than one reporter's police source was shocked at the announcement. I'm not saying that is what happened, but it certainly is within the realm of possibility that police simply made the wrong call. Its not like TPS hasn't made the wrong call many times before.

WE don't yet know if B died by hanging on the railing. We only know that 'ligature neck compression' was the COD.. but it has been described previously as being *either* strangulation or hanging.

 

[deugirtni]

These to me are all reasons why I think the initial investigation was leaning towards murder/suicide. Not just in the first hours either, I think the honestly were convinced it was M/S for weeks.

There's gotta be a really huge reason (which we don't yet know about) for them to have thought that way, if they in fact did think that way for weeks, because to everyone else, it sure doesn't seem to have the appearance of a M/S.

 

[deugirtni]

They would be the experts on assessing the current value of missing items for insurance purposes.

But those missing items would not be available in the home for assessment. They would have to have photos and receipts, which does not require a home visit to see items which are not there.

 

[deugirtni]

RBBM. In fact, wasn't it disclosed fairly early on, based on the coroners findings, that they did NOT “ die from hanging on the railing”, and in fact a different ligature than the belts was used to kill them?

I do remember that, however, I think it was waffled on.. I don't think we know yet.

 

[deugirtni]

Think of what they did to poor Tim Bosma just to steal his truck. They could have just killed him and dumped his body somewhere. But they didn’t. What they did to him doesn’t indicate a robbery also.
We dont know what was happening in that house that made the perps tie them up to a railing. But I’m not sure we can assume or determine that because they were tied to a railing that it must be a planned, targeted murder.

But the thing is, they DID steal the truck (regarding the Bosma case). They didn't plan to steal the truck, and then just kill Bosma, but leave the truck. The wanted item was still taken.

 

[deugirtni]

I'm a person that believes in statistics. You will always be able to find instances of oddball crimes, but quite frankly those are one in a million occurrences. When you have a crime like this the odds are 99.9% that the motive involved one of three things, sex, drugs or money. You can argue that it may have been a personal vendetta, but that would likely have been the result of one of those three things. My gut also tells me that sex and drugs have nothing to do with this case, so I'd be very comfortable betting this was about money. I also believe that there had to be some sort of monetary benefit to whoever did this. For instance, Barry was not known for writing contracts. He would front money to people on a handshake. If one of these partners killed Barry, the handshake agreement would die with him.

I agree with your idea about timing, albeit for different reasons. It had been all over the news about Barry's recent court victory over the cousins, and his further lawsuit that would see them pay Barry's legal expenses. I believe the timing may have simply been designed to immediately throw shade at the cousins, especially the outspoken Kerry Winter.

Where do you get that 'Barry was not known for writing contracts'? It was B who made sure that every time he loaned/gave money to KW, he had him sign for whatever obligations he may have had in relation to that. B's greatest skill was said in one report, to be his ability to quickly file docs in court so his co could make generic drugs as early as possible. B was well versed in the courts and that is how he dealt with virtually all of his issues (such as say, suing his home builders for shoddy workmanship, or whatever).

There is no doubt (in my mind anyway) that this was ultimately about money. But it could be about money that was never going to be realized, which potential perp had finally come to terms with. How could someone be so obvious.. because perhaps they were not 'hands-on' and configured a plan to confuse and not shed evidence. This plan may have been dreamed about for years. jmo.

 

[rickcross]

RBBM. In fact, wasn't it disclosed fairly early on, based on the coroners findings, that they did NOT “ die from hanging on the railing”, and in fact a different ligature than the belts was used to kill them?

I don't know that the coroner has said anything. Greenspan's team suggested that though.

 

[dotr]

The Shermans were a wealthy couple, but perhaps more importantly, they were a powerful couple.
Money does equal power of course, but thinking while there are many affluent couples, few have the same power and perceived influence wielded by the Shermans. imo, speculation.

 

[MistyWaters]

Misty we already know LE made some serious errors such as letting an apotex employee access the crime scene; not ensuring all people accessing the crime scene wore protective clothing to not disturb evidence; not checking or collecting evidence on a timely basis (videos from apotex and neighbors, real estate agent dna/shoes, etc), and others. Whether these and other errors will impact the ability to secure a conviction remains to be determined.

How do you know those were “errors” without LE revealing who/what/when or why their investigation led? The entire home wasn’t a crime scene for weeks. Certain areas are cleared as they go along. Police prioritize what they view as significant first and lesser routine matters get attention later.

I can’t see any good reason for LE to waste time immediately determining everyone who admitted being in the home was actually there.

 

[MistyWaters]

I don't know that the coroner has said anything. Greenspan's team suggested that though.

The Provincial Coroner never makes public statements announcing death findings. That’s the role of police but an example of their working partnership. The autopsy findings are included as part of the police file. Then a Crown Prosecutor becomes involved and after LE is successful in gathering adequate evidence, charges are filed, another example of partnership.

Greenspan was mostly talking out of his hat IMO. If he had a good reason it was to inflate the ego of the killer/s into thinking these homicides would never get solved because TPS was too incompetent.

 

[MistyWaters]

But the thing is, they DID steal the truck (regarding the Bosma case). They didn't plan to steal the truck, and then just kill Bosma, but leave the truck. The wanted item was still taken.

I agree. In the Bosma case the truck was definitely the target and Tim just happened to be the owner who advertised it for sale. It wasn’t a case where Tim was targeted for murder in advance and the truck was taken as an afterthought. But clearly once the right truck was found, it was planned the owner not live to report it being stolen.