CANADA Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #17

[Lexiintoronto]

It must’ve been more than obvious the Shermans couldn’t be resuscitated/saved, unlike coming upon a car crash that occurred moments before. In a case such as that, advising family members before calling 911 is a thoughtful gesture. As happened, I think the news leaked out on twitter before everyone close to them were notified of their deaths.

There’s been discussion here before - is calling 911 over dead bodies even the right thing to do, considering the role of paramedics is to perform life-saving emergency measures?

The only time you wouldn’t call 911 is if it’s an expected death and the person usually has a DNR order. Typically the family or palliative care doctor is called and they declare them dead and complete the death certificate and certificate for the funeral home (or morgue) so the deceased can be transferred. (imo and experience.)

There were differing accounts of the 911 call, and the report of a 90 minute delay was incorrect. The court records indicate 3 people called 911 after the Shermans were found deceased. I think realtor Stern was in shock—this was just after she found Barry and Honey by the pool:

“Detectives said Stern told them she first called Mary in Florida to “ask where Honey was because something weird was going on.”

Banks (gardener/plant waterer) came back upstairs at this point “shaking and said that the Shermans were blue and clearly dead.” In a statement that was passed on to Shechtman that morning, Banks told Stern, “They were murdered.”

Shechtman told Stern to call police. Banks also called 911, as did a cousin of Honey’s in Toronto who was apparently alerted by Shechtman. Banks told a 911 dispatcher the two people in the pool room were certainly dead and “she would not be performing CPR.”

Toronto Fire Department arrived first after the 11:44 a.m. call. A firefighter noted “they were blue in colour with obvious signs of rigor mortis.” Police arrived a little later, at 11:54 a.m.”
Outline - Read & annotate without distractions

 

[casesensitive]

Sounds interesting but it's behind a paywall. Perhaps you could summarize it for us?

Darn--my free sign up with The Toronto Star for Sherman articles has obviously expired. I think you will get five articles free before they cut you off and ask you to subscribe.

 

[MistyWaters]

The only time you wouldn’t call 911 is if it’s an expected death and the person usually has a DNR order. Typically the family or palliative care doctor is called and they declare them dead and complete the death certificate and certificate for the funeral home (or morgue) so the deceased can be transferred. (imo and experience.)

There were differing accounts of the 911 call, and the report of a 90 minute delay was incorrect. The court records indicate 3 people called 911 after the Shermans were found deceased. I think realtor Stern was in shock—this was just after she found Barry and Honey by the pool:

“Detectives said Stern told them she first called Mary in Florida to “ask where Honey was because something weird was going on.”

Banks (gardener/plant waterer) came back upstairs at this point “shaking and said that the Shermans were blue and clearly dead.” In a statement that was passed on to Shechtman that morning, Banks told Stern, “They were murdered.”

Shechtman told Stern to call police. Banks also called 911, as did a cousin of Honey’s in Toronto who was apparently alerted by Shechtman. Banks told a 911 dispatcher the two people in the pool room were certainly dead and “she would not be performing CPR.”

Toronto Fire Department arrived first after the 11:44 a.m. call. A firefighter noted “they were blue in colour with obvious signs of rigor mortis.” Police arrived a little later, at 11:54 a.m.”
Outline - Read & annotate without distractions

This is informative, thanks!

 

[Atom1c]

Would be interesting to know if LE has pored through passenger lists of all incoming flights on Dec 12th and 13th and departing on Dec 14th, (or possibly even very late on Dec 13th?) from which countries, etc.

I would bet my life that they haven’t; because they can’t. To approach some dozen plus airlines that fly in and out of Pearson and ask for passengers lists covering some three or four days, you need one crucial thing: probable cause. Without PC, no judge is going to sign-off on something as invasive as combing through the personal information of hundreds, if not thousands of travellers on the grounds that a guy in a grainy video walks like Putin<modsnip> or because a billionaire and his wife were murdered and theres maybe an international cover-up involving a death squad/hitmen? <modsnip>

Toronto Police would need to show proof, backed up with enough hard evidence to warrant something as all-consuming as this. Burden of proof is everything.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I would bet my life that they haven’t; because they can’t. To approach some dozen plus airlines that fly in and out of Pearson and ask for passengers lists covering some three or four days, you need one crucial thing: probable cause. Without PC, no judge is going to sign-off on something as invasive as combing through the personal information of hundreds, if not thousands of travellers on the grounds that a guy in a grainy video walks like Putin<modsnip> or because a billionaire and his wife were murdered and theres maybe an international cover-up involving a death squad/hitmen? <modsnip>

Toronto Police would need to show proof, backed up with enough hard evidence to warrant something as all-consuming as this. Burden of proof is everything.

Two suspected Russian hit men were tracked coming and going from Heathrow airport, one of the top-ten busiest airports in the world.

(Previously posted by dotr):

In the Sherman case we don’t know if a car or airplane was involved.

The video is grainy, but my guess is that it’s very meaningful to a few people who know him or her. It might just take one phone call.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I’m not sure if this link works for everyone, but until midnight the Star is offering a basic online version for $12.00 per year. Subscribe to The Star Digital Access | The Star

(I don’t work for them! I’m just a reader.)

 

[SUSAN ANN]

I'm gonna try to summarize. Basically the police had 35 people of interest and they asked the Judge to allow then to track their cell phone transmissions and the judge denied their request.
"A Toronto judge was repeatedly denying their request to track by cellular telephone transmission the whereabouts, at the time of the murders, of 35 individuals who were “persons of interest.”

Then they interviewed someone who came with "new info" that led them to believe they were being watched. So they asked the judge again to allow them to trace data.

"By mid-2018, detectives already had the tracking data emitted by Barry’s BlackBerry and Honey’s iPhone. Now, by December 2018, they were still seeking permission to obtain the tracking data from as many as 35 other cellphones. Due, it appears, to the new information, police wanted to “parallel the tracking data from Bernard’s or Honey’s cellular phone records,” police state. “If they do parallel this could indicate that Bernard and/or Honey were followed or were under surveillance,” police wrote in their application to the court."

"Justice Pringle heard three different applications from Yim between June and December 2018. He provided the numbers and the cellphone providers. There was some concern with losing data if the requests were not approved. While Bell and Rogers keep all data for at least a year, Telus deletes texting data after 150 days (but keeps other data for longer). Rogers, the documents show, keeps its data for 13 months and in Yim’s December application, 12 months after the murders, Yim said he feared the data “could be lost forever.” Bell keeps all of its data for three years.

Three times from June to November, Pringle was asked to approve applications for phone tracking data for these phones (cellphones “ping” off a tower and give highly accurate latitude and longitude co-ordinates of where they are located) going back in most cases one month before the murders, but in some cases several months. Each time she allowed a few, but denied most."

Then at the end of the article it states that 2 more texts came in that the police take note of:
"There are two more text communications police list, but given how wide the news of the Sherman death spread and how quickly, it is possible that the time codes in the police documents are incorrect, or that the text messages came in long after they were sent.

At 4:34 p.m. on the Friday (several hours after Sherman children Jonathon and Alexandra have told the Star they notified their sister Lauren in Mexico,” Barry’s phone records a text message from Lauren. “Hi dad, My car was broken into and I’m not sure how to deal with it from here. Can you help me wrap my mind around what to do?” While not outlined in the unredacted part of the document, Lauren was in Mexico and may have had an issue with her car in Whistler, B.C. where she lives.

The final communication police note on the phone comes at 8:27 p.m. on the Friday (long after the bodies were discovered) from Mark Winter, a distant relative of Barry’s on his mother Sarah’s side. “Barry it’s Mark Winter. Are you and your family okay, I just saw on the news something scary.” Mark is also related to Kerry Winter, Barry’s cousin, who had unsuccessfully sued Barry for part ownership of Apotex."

This is a long article, best I could do. Hope it helps..

Very interesting. Does anyone remember when the Shermans talked about giving their fortune to charity? Did they mean they would not leave anything to their children? And the Lauren car situation… Is she trying to cover for herself or did she really not know her dad was dead? If I’m reading this article accurately Alexander and Jonathan are possibly lying about telling Lauren her dad is dead? Also do you techie people know how long it takes or text or email to go around the world. I always thought those things were instantaneous. Is it possible Lauren didn’t get the message? I think it’s a shame that judge is not cooperating with the police. They have lost so much time and probably valuable information by now.

 

[Gina20]

I would bet my life that they haven’t; because they can’t. To approach some dozen plus airlines that fly in and out of Pearson and ask for passengers lists covering some three or four days, you need one crucial thing: probable cause. Without PC, no judge is going to sign-off on something as invasive as combing through the personal information of hundreds, if not thousands of travellers on the grounds that a guy in a grainy video walks like Putin<modsnip> or because a billionaire and his wife were murdered and theres maybe an international cover-up involving a death squad/hitmen? <modsnip>

Toronto Police would need to show proof, backed up with enough hard evidence to warrant something as all-consuming as this. Burden of proof is everything.

Seriously, he walks in the way of a man trained to be ready to shoot his weapon quickly: the gunslinger's gait. This gait is not natural. It is distinctive precisely because intentionally restricting movement in one arm is unusual. This gait was taught by the KGB, the Russian military and others. And yes, Putin is one of many Russians trained to walk this way.

 

[SUSAN ANN]

Two suspected Russian hit men were tracked coming and going from Heathrow airport, one of the top-ten busiest airports in the world.

(Previously posted by dotr):

In the Sherman case we don’t know if a car or airplane was involved.

The video is grainy, but my guess is that it’s very meaningful to a few people who know him or her. It might just take one phone call.

May I ask what video you are referring to that is grainy? Is there a video of this alleged suspect getting into a car after the Sherman murders?

 

[Lexiintoronto]

May I ask what video you are referring to that is grainy? Is there a video of this alleged suspect getting into a car after the Sherman murders?

The Sherman suspect video seems a bit grainy or the person seems blurry, imo. The police wouldn’t comment on whether there was a vehicle involved or not.

The subject of whether or not the suspect could be tracked to the airport was discussed, one person said no. But hit men have been successfully tracked to Heathrow, so Pearson in Toronto is possible, imo.

ETA: Sorry—I didn’t realize you hadn’t seen the video dotr posted below!

 

[dotr]

May I ask what video you are referring to that is grainy? Is there a video of this alleged suspect getting into a car after the Sherman murders?

Welcome to Ws!
There is this video of the suspect, the only one released thus far.

 

[SUSAN ANN]

Welcome to Ws!
There is this video of the suspect, the only one released thus far.

Creepy. And that is supposed to be him walking to wherever he was going to after he committed the murders if it was him, the police seem pretty sure about it. Someone brought up a good point about dogs in the neighborhood barking or motion sensors in the Sherman’s backyard if the murderer went through the backyard and apparently he did because he’s not on the neighbors video across the street from the Shermans’ at least that’s the way I read it.

 

[ldlager]

Question for those of you who believe this was a professional hit - What is the purpose of hiring a hit man to murder a couple, insisting it not appear as a murder?

What I mean is what does that accomplish, to have Barry blamed for murdering his wife, then taking his own life? Why would the assassinator not just leave the bodies lying in the place where their lives were taken?

Perhaps the person behind the killings hated Barry so much that she or he wanted people to view Barry in the worst possible light- as someone who killed his wife and also didn’t have the courage to face justice.

 

[ldlager]

But in order to stage a convincing murder scene of any type it must be plausible scenario. No family members, friends or associates believed Barry would murder his wife and take his own life and that’s when thing began to fall apart.

Well there are several posters on this board that remain committed to convincing everyone else that it was a m/s. In fact, KW is a family member and is adamant that BS murdered HS, and in fact had even in the past asked KW to find someone to murder HS.

 

[ldlager]

This is a great article that breaks down step by step of what we know all ready. A great read to refresh our memory if need be.

It's been 3 years since Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead. Court documents reveal what we know so far

It's sort of strange that the realtor would phone HS sister and it was the sister that told her to phone the police. She also informed everyone in the house what she found before calling the sister.
Maybe she was in shock? IDK, but the first thing I would do is phone 911, then inform everyone. I have been in a similar situation with coming upon a car crash and also with a sudden death and 911 is immediately my go to.

one of the biggest question marks is why it took so long for anyone (incl MS) to call 911.

 

[ldlager]

The only time you wouldn’t call 911 is if it’s an expected death and the person usually has a DNR order. Typically the family or palliative care doctor is called and they declare them dead and complete the death certificate and certificate for the funeral home (or morgue) so the deceased can be transferred. (imo and experience.)

There were differing accounts of the 911 call, and the report of a 90 minute delay was incorrect. The court records indicate 3 people called 911 after the Shermans were found deceased. I think realtor Stern was in shock—this was just after she found Barry and Honey by the pool:

“Detectives said Stern told them she first called Mary in Florida to “ask where Honey was because something weird was going on.”

Banks (gardener/plant waterer) came back upstairs at this point “shaking and said that the Shermans were blue and clearly dead.” In a statement that was passed on to Shechtman that morning, Banks told Stern, “They were murdered.”

Shechtman told Stern to call police. Banks also called 911, as did a cousin of Honey’s in Toronto who was apparently alerted by Shechtman. Banks told a 911 dispatcher the two people in the pool room were certainly dead and “she would not be performing CPR.”

Toronto Fire Department arrived first after the 11:44 a.m. call. A firefighter noted “they were blue in colour with obvious signs of rigor mortis.” Police arrived a little later, at 11:54 a.m.”
Outline - Read & annotate without distractions

And yet the TPS still indicates that they responded at 12.46 pm to the emergency call

 

[juli99]

The lastest Star articles now say he was holding a paper with his cryptocurrency codes. Donovan saw the photo.

ETA: I don’t understand how it works, but if he were to send that photo to someone, wouldn’t they be able to access his cyber money?

Does sound a little odd. I know when I opened a crypto account, I had to send a photo of myself holding a piece of ID. So it's definitely something that he might have had to do. But, the choice of timing of when he did it was likely up to him.

 

[casesensitive]

Probable cause is anything relating to a case that uses existing evidence to gain legal grounds for further/extended investigative intercepts/affidavits/legal recourse to search through things.

The evidence in this case was this initially: suspected murder/suicide, no usable forensic evidence (as far as we know), and a messy crime scene. None of this, on paper, signals the initiative or necessary prerequisites to subpoena airlines for passenger manifests.

Just because someone on an online forum thinks they see something 5 years after the fact because they watched a YouTube video about assassins from Russia is downright laughable. DNA, phone records, money transfers, airline ticket receipts, Russian money or Russian-made treads at the scene: these things would allow for a judge to see the warranted investigation into airline tickets.

But thinking that a walk on a grainy video of some guy shuffling down the street, resembling (in your mind) the walk of Putin or people linked with assassinations is the definition of conjectural nonsense. My father is a Justice of the Peace for Ontario. What you are proposing is tenuous arm-chair "sleuthing" with zero substantive or scientifically-based research behind it. There's a reason you're a forum commentator and not a designated member of LE.

You are effectively turning this very real, very vague murder into a Robert Ludlum or John Le Carre novel with nothing more than random, unproven connections. What you propose is to just throw out hair-brained conclusions with no evidencial proof or inside knowledge.

You're grasping at the flimsiest of straws.

Atomic1c, welcome to Websleuths. You are right, there is nothing to connect the suspect to a Russian assassin. We are basically a group that relies on police updates, media articles, or books to form our opinions on a crime. Toronto police have remained silent for four years and this video has sparked comments from a number of posters who are trying to make sense of the suspect.

You might want to go back in the thread to read our comments from the beginning. You are correct, I don't think any of our posters are designated members of LE, and you are correct, we are arm-chair sleuths. That is what Websleuths is all about.

I hope you can drop your claim to fame, and your self-righteous indignation to understand what websleuths is all about. We speculate. I do hope you join this thread to be a productive member who can post in a civil manner. I think you would be a great contributor to the thread.

 

[Rush4087]

Well there are several posters on this board that remain committed to convincing everyone else that it was a m/s. In fact, KW is a family member and is adamant that BS murdered HS, and in fact had even in the past asked KW to find someone to murder HS.

KW failed a lie detector test regarding whether BS had at one time asked him (KW) to find someone to murder HS. But, imo, KW has not been terribly consistent from the beginning in his speculating about what might have happened to the Sherman’s (btw I do not think KW was the murderer).

Crediting a MistyWaters post from an earlier page of this thread, KW told KD (source is KD’s book) that on the day of the murders (Dec 13), he (KW) told someone that he feared his brother Jeffrey would kill the Shermans. Then, on the day the Sherman’s bodies were found (Dec 15th) he ‘tried repeatedly to reach Jeffrey to ask him if he (JB) killed them’.

But I’ve also read MSM-linked posts on these threads that KW’s own immediate reaction upon learning of the Sherman’s deaths was: ‘F*cking h*ll, he (BS) finally did it. He finally killed the b*tch.’

Then, in a Jan ‘18 DM article (just a month or so after the bodies were found), Winter reflected: ‘Either way he had a terrible end. He either killed his wife and hung himself - or he was targeted and Honey was punched out in front of him.’

So, combined with the earlier ridiculous proposed “apprentice” scenario and now the assertion that the recently released video was staged as part of some grand conspiracy to save BS’s legacy by the Sherman family and TPS, I’m not sure that KW has ever really known what happened. He just wanted it to be whichever scenario would make BS and HS look the worst - and I certainly can’t blame him for that.

I do wonder however: does KW recognize the man in the video? 10 million is a lot of money

All jmo

 

[FromGermany1]

Some how my response got included in the primary source quote in the above post.


I don't think it had anything to do with casting blame. If it was a cover up: an attempt to portray a double murder as a murder/suicide it was done to ensure that Barry's primary will was fulfilled. It may not have been palatable for some of the beneficiaries but it was a damn sight better than his instructions to the trustees if he died before Honey.

Primary will:
"In the primary will, Barry directs his trustees to evenly distribute his entire fortune among his four children in the event of Honey Sherman’s death.

But he asks that more than 40 per cent of each child’s share be withheld until they turn 35. They would receive one quarter of their share upon turning 24 and one-third upon turning 30."

Instructions to trustees:

"Sherman also laid out instructions in the event that he died before his wife.

In that case, he asked that trustees hold his entire estate in trust and pay “the net annual income derived therefrom” to Honey Sherman “in quarterly instalments.

He also gives his trustees “absolute and unfettered discretion” to provide Honey Sherman with additional payments from his estate to provide for her “comfortable maintenance and benefit” as they deem fit.

Interestingly, Sherman does not direct that any portion of his estate be donated to charity and instead states that his four children - Lauren, Jonathon, Alexandra and Kaelen - would split it evenly upon Honey’s death."

It would appear from the charity angle that it was Honey who coordinated the charitable donations making the Sherman's one of Canada's premier philanthropist powerhouses. And the instructions to the trustees suggested 'unfettered' access meant she could give away as much money to charity as she wanted to.

Both quotes from this news item:
Slain billionaire Barry Sherman divided estate equally among four children

All speculation and my opinion.

bbm
Then Honey could have spent to charity here and charity there or for another large palace or similar, without leaving money to their 4 children?? Or how is it to be understood?