CANADA Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #17

[dotr]

casesenstive, can we dig up a link to that quote? i find that very very interesting.... would partially change my view of the TPS on this whole situation

Initial quotes found on this first page of thread # 1 rbbm.
Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #1

Dec 15 2017
Pharma giant and philanthropists Barry and Honey Sherman found dead
''Speaking to reporters in front of the home, Const. David Hopkinson said the victims’ deaths are being treated as suspicious at this time.

“The circumstances of their deaths appear suspicious and we are treating it that way,” he said. “Our investigators are inside (the home) investigating and taking apart the scene.”

“Until we know exactly how they died we treat it as suspicious and once a determination has been made with the pathologist and the coroner then we move forward from there.”

Officers added that the homicide unit is assisting in the investigation but are not leading it.''

ETA, Poster Satchie nailed it first page.. #20
''Using my decoding ring to analyse these latest police statements, they are sending out warning signals, for sure.

This will be a big international story. They have to figure out how much to reveal while trying to give the family privacy.''
Satchie, Dec 15, 2017

 

[Tobiano8th]

Is this the murderer of Barry and Honey Sherman or are Toronto police chasing a ghost? - NOW Magazine

recent article. well done, i thought .. non-paywall.

note: these are paragraphs from the article.. but NOT consecutive paragraphs.

A source close to the investigation who spoke to NOW suggests the perpetrator (or perpetrators) may not even be in Canada. This source theorizes that the murders were contract killings carried out by a foreign actor, perhaps from an Eastern European or Middle Eastern country, who was likely part of a criminal organization.

The source close to the investigation characterizes that as “pure speculation.” But there’s little doubt that the killings were intended to make a statement.. my own comment: the killings were made to look like "there were intended to make a statement" or "to make TPS think it was M/S, which they did successful. honestly, why would some eastern european hitman getting paid $1MM care about making a statement?

Price ran down the Toronto police efforts to date at Tuesday’s press conference – 41 judicial authorizations (for search warrants), 250 witness interviews, 1,255 tips and 992 “investigative actions.” He says the force remains “steadfast” in bringing closure to the case.

Contract killings are the most difficult to solve because they’re carried out by professionals and usually rely on the person who carried out the hit to turn in the person who hired them. This source says “that’s unlikely to happen in this case.” Meanwhile, an attempt by the Star to unseal police documents related to the case was denied by a court last spring.

my own comment again: i find JS reference to "bitcoin hand time stamp" for date/time a bit ironic, as i'm thinking the assassin (assuming it is 3rd party) was probably paid in such.

 

[Tobiano8th]

what does "suspicious death" mean these days? i see it alot in police stories but never completely sure.

as i understand this usage, double suicide (in this case) would NOT be suspicious........... double murder would BE suspicious........... i'm think M/S (class domestic violence situation ending very badly) would BE suspicious (makes sense to me), but not sure that's how they use the terminology.

i think they use "NOT CONSIDERED SUSPICIOUS" to me that all the people in the matter are accounted for i.e. no reason for public to worry for their personal safety

 

[casesensitive]

casesenstive, can we dig up a link to that quote? i find that very very interesting.... would partially change my view of the TPS on this whole situation

I'm glad that you read through my comments and ignored the rest of the fonts. (I don't know why I couldn't post again after clicking off the link and having it all come back).

As I posted, Joe Warmington (Toronto Sun journalist) said his TPS source told him that the Shermans obviously died by a double homicide. His source got the info from a cop who was at the crime scene. He was going to run with that headline--M/M but he got a call from a senior TPS officer who told him not to run it, because it was actually a M/S crime.

I can't find his article from back then online for some reason. Maybe better sleuths can find it. I sent Joe an e-mail asking where to find that article, but I suspect that I won't hear back.

 

[bmacmillan1]

I'm obviously missing something because I cannot see the link between the statues and the positions Barry and Honey were found in, except for the fact that they were seated next to each other. As well, how does this point to the murders being personal, if this was straightforward murder as i believe it was, and not M/S.

 

[deugirtni]

I'm glad that you read through my comments and ignored the rest of the fonts. (I don't know why I couldn't post again after clicking off the link and having it all come back).

As I posted, Joe Warmington (Toronto Sun journalist) said his TPS source told him that the Shermans obviously died by a double homicide. His source got the info from a cop who was at the crime scene. He was going to run with that headline--M/M but he got a call from a senior TPS officer who told him not to run it, because it was actually a M/S crime.

I can't find his article from back then online for some reason. Maybe better sleuths can find it. I sent Joe an e-mail asking where to find that article, but I suspect that I won't hear back.

BBM

Joe Warmington Published: January 26, 2018

They were executed!

That was the lede of the column written Dec. 15, 2017, on the strange deaths of Honey and Barry Sherman.

I was about to push the send button when Toronto Police sources said it was wrong.

“It was not a double murder,” said one cop. “It’s a murder-suicide, with him killing her, dragging her body to the pool, hanging it and then hanging himself.”

It was in stark contrast to what the Toronto Sun was told by a witness of the death scene inside the couple’s Old Colony Rd. mansion.

“They both had (belts) wrapped around their necks,” said the source. “It was an execution.”

But Police were adamant it was not. Outside the house police told neighbours and the public there was “no sign of forced entry” and not to worry too much up in York Mills because “we are not looking for an suspects.”

It was all code for a murder-suicide.

And they quietly confirmed this same narrative for 42 days — cloaking it in being investigated as “suspicious deaths” that the Coroner confirmed were the result of ligature neck compression.

All the media were told the same thing: Murder-suicide, end of story.
....
Despite the fact that police talked us out of going with the story we had correct on that first night, we decided to approach it with an open mind.

This is why I kept pushing on this case and, despite what police were saying, kept bringing out every clue we found — most pointing to a double homicide.

Until Homicide Det.-Sgt. Susan Gomes came to the podium at Police Headquarters on Friday and announced it was a “double homicide.”
....
Stay tuned because this is no longer a domestic case or murder-suicide.

The Shermans were executed — as I should have written six weeks ago.

At least that’s what police are telling us now.

WARMINGTON: Did cops mislead, bungle or capitulate in Sherman 'murder' probe? | Toronto Sun

 

[deugirtni]

But I think rigor mortis would have completely dissipated in both after 2 days. This was the subject of much discussion here many threads ago I recall.

Note: this article appears to no longer be under a paywall. BBM:

Toronto Fire Department arrived first after the 11:44 a.m. call. A firefighter noted “they were blue in colour with obvious signs of rigour mortis.” Police arrived a little later, at 11:54 a.m.

‘Someone has killed my clients’: Newly released documents detail the day Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead, and what police did after

 

[ldlager]

Note: this article appears to no longer be under a paywall. BBM:

Toronto Fire Department arrived first after the 11:44 a.m. call. A firefighter noted “they were blue in colour with obvious signs of rigour mortis.” Police arrived a little later, at 11:54 a.m.

‘Someone has killed my clients’: Newly released documents detail the day Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead, and what police did after

 

[ldlager]

FWII rigour mortis is gone within 48 hours after death. The bodies weren’t removed from the home until Friday night. So if the bodies still had RM when they were being removed maybe the murders in fact occurred later than LE is stating. But this was discussed at length many threads ago

 

[ldlager]

What if the mysterious walker is identified and cleared as a suspect. Do we believe LE could ever obtain a conviction in this case when the terrabites of video they obtained in the neighborhood fail to show anyone else whose presence there cannot be explained? Police have said this person is “pretty much” the only one on video they can’t identify and clear
How could a killer arrive at and leave the neighbourhood and not be videoed somewhere?

 

[dotr]

What if the mysterious walker is identified and cleared as a suspect. Do we believe LE could ever obtain a conviction in this case when the terrabites of video they obtained in the neighborhood fail to show anyone else whose presence there cannot be explained? Police have said this person is “pretty much” the only one on video they can’t identify and clear
How could a killer arrive at and leave the neighbourhood and not be videoed somewhere?

Have not watched these yet, but posting here for later to see if it might bring a little further understanding of cctv in this case. Fwiw.

''Britain is the CCTV capital of the world, with an estimated 6m cameras monitoring our every move. And increasingly, its ordinary homeowners keeping watch on our streets. As the cost of private camera systems has fallen to as little as £100, today there’s a new army of CCTV owners capturing footage 24/7. This documentary explores the rise in British domestic CCTV use through the extraordinary footage captured by home surveillance cameras, and the dramatic, funny and bizarre stories of those behind – and in front of – the lens.''

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4189570/
See No Evil
''Every second of every day, millions of Americans are caught on CCTV. Most of them are honest citizens going about their everyday lives. But a few are guilty of unspeakable crimes. See no Evil is a ground breaking new series about how real crimes are solved with the help of surveillance cameras. Police reveal how CCTV footage has unlocked the answer to cases''

''KILLER CAUGHT
Chilling moment hitman who killed law student Aya Hachem, 19, realises botched shooting was caught on CCTV
6 Aug 2021
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15796...man-killed-aya-hachem-realises-shooting-cctv/

 

[deugirtni]

Note: this article appears to no longer be under a paywall. BBM:

Toronto Fire Department arrived first after the 11:44 a.m. call. A firefighter noted “they were blue in colour with obvious signs of rigour mortis.” Police arrived a little later, at 11:54 a.m.

‘Someone has killed my clients’: Newly released documents detail the day Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead, and what police did after

FWII rigour mortis is gone within 48 hours after death. The bodies weren’t removed from the home until Friday night. So if the bodies still had RM when they were being removed maybe the murders in fact occurred later than LE is stating. But this was discussed at length many threads ago

The quote from the firefighter was from when he first saw the bodies around noon that day. If they'd been killed at say 9pm on Wed, and he saw them at noon on Fri, that would be about 39 hours. I'm thinking the state of their bodies probably added to LE's determination of time of death.

 

[BaffleMe]

I'm obviously missing something because I cannot see the link between the statues and the positions Barry and Honey were found in, except for the fact that they were seated next to each other. As well, how does this point to the murders being personal, if this was straightforward murder as i believe it was, and not M/S.

I'm with you. I can't see the link either.

 

[BaffleMe]

What if the mysterious walker is identified and cleared as a suspect. Do we believe LE could ever obtain a conviction in this case when the terrabites of video they obtained in the neighborhood fail to show anyone else whose presence there cannot be explained? Police have said this person is “pretty much” the only one on video they can’t identify and clear
How could a killer arrive at and leave the neighbourhood and not be videoed somewhere?

But this person is a "suspect" because of his movements. That includes being in the area of the deaths at the time of the deaths for a "suspicious amount of time."

 

[deugirtni]

What if the mysterious walker is identified and cleared as a suspect. Do we believe LE could ever obtain a conviction in this case when the terrabites of video they obtained in the neighborhood fail to show anyone else whose presence there cannot be explained? Police have said this person is “pretty much” the only one on video they can’t identify and clear
How could a killer arrive at and leave the neighbourhood and not be videoed somewhere?

Price said this individual is the ONLY person they haven't been able to identify. imo.

Price said they went to “extraordinary efforts” over the past four years. They did neighbourhood canvasses, showing photos and video to people in the area, all trying to determine who various people were. They also obtained thousands of cellphone transmissions in the area at the time, and used that data to match up with people they had determined were walking or driving in the neighbourhoods around Old Colony that night. One by one, investigators determined who people were and found their actions to be mundane — dog walkers, couples out for a stroll in the freshly fallen snow that December night.

“We have been left with one individual whom we have been unable to identify,” Price told reporters at a press conference that was livestreamed.

The inside story of how Toronto police zeroed in the Sherman murder ‘suspect’ with the odd gait

 

[dotr]

Just stumbled on a thread involving a young woman who was murdered at home and LE declared it a suicide, now - after her parents insisted on a second autopsy, it is being considered a case of murder. Cross-posted on that thread.fwiw.
PA - Ellen Greenberg, 27, Philly teacher’s brutal stabbing, suicide, Jan 2011 *trial if homicide*

 

[Window21]

"Price explained investigators have determined the person approaches the Sherman home, even though they do not have video of the person at the North York property. The Shermans did not have a security camera."

“This individual walks into (an area ‘tight’ to the Sherman home) does not continue to walk through, but remains in that area that is not covered by video footage. And remains in there and then comes back out some time later.” Price called this behaviour “highly suspicious” and said this person has been classified as a “suspect.” The video shows the person walking along a sidewalk, travelling by foot away from the Sherman home."

Also:
"Police say they amassed four terabytes of data — roughly 2,000 hours of video. They did not get it all. In the case of a house with a video camera that picks up the front of the Sherman home, police waited three days to seize the video offered by the homeowners. The delay cost police three days of footage, as the camera had been on a seven-day setting."

Also:
"the Star has identified the place where the video was captured. It was recorded by a home security system on Bannatyne Drive, 1.3 kilometres to the east of Old Colony Road. Looking at the video, the Star has determined the person is walking southeast on Bannatyne, away from the Sherman home. It is snowing and the person passes a fire hydrant that police used to estimate his height and keeps going southeast. Eventually, Bannatyne intersects with Leslie Street. The Sherman home on Old Colony is to the west, close to Bayview Avenue."

"From Bannatyne, there are numerous ways the person could leave the neighbourhood, including walking out to Leslie."

The inside story of how Toronto police zeroed in the Sherman murder ‘suspect’ with the odd gait

 

[dotr]

Dubai cameras shine light on killers' dark arts
February 26, 2010 rbbm.
By William Maclean, Security Correspondent
''Putting aside questions of morality -- not core concerns in espionage -- security experts say the skills on display to a fascinated global TV and online audience are those of a national intelligence service adept at hiding in plain sight.''

“They got in, killed the guy and disappeared, without leaving proof of who they were,” said Robert Ayers, a former U.S. intelligence officer.
“It doesn’t get any better than that.”

“The best intelligence agent in the world is five foot six, balding and pudgy,” said Ayers. “Being middle-aged can help.”
The more spotters are tracking a target, the less chance there is that the target detects it. Normal “foot surveillance” of a single target needs five people, Ayers said''
Stance, man in back. fwiw.

Reuters
rbbm.
Dubai murder: fake identities, disguised faces and a clinical assassination
''The pair were said to have taken separate taxis to the same hotel, in what appears to have been the first in a series of repeated, meticulous decoys and counter-espionage techniques. Throughout their 19 hours in the emirate, members of the gang used cash rather than credit cards for their transactions and almost continuously changed their identities, switching outfits and wearing wigs and glasses as disguises, Dubai police said.

The CCTV footage showed Daveron appeared to have undergone the most extreme transformation, disappearing from the view of a CCTV camera in a hotel lobby as a bald man in a suit, before reappearing with thick black hair and glasses.''

 

[Window21]

Is there any truth to the rumor that BS and HS were going to sign up for the Giving Pledge? That would mean most of their money would be going to that charity upon their death leaving the children with hardly anything....

 

[dotr]

Is there any truth to the rumor that BS and HS were going to sign up for the Giving Pledge? That would mean most of their money would be going to that charity upon their death leaving the children with hardly anything....

As it turned out, iirc, there was no mention of the GP in the will, link to follow if i find it. consider imo, speculation.
2019 rbbm.
WARMINGTON: Did billionaire Shermans want to leave wealth to Bill Gates' charity? | Toronto Sun
''But were they considering leaving their billions, after death, to Bill Gates’ The Giving Pledge?

Several friends close to them say yes. Others say nothing of the sort had been decided.

The issue came up after the British newspaper, The Daily Mail, reported Thursday that shortly before their brutal Dec. 13, 2017 murders in the couple’s Old Colony Rd. mansion, they talked about signing up with The Giving Pledge initiative started by Bill and Melinda Gates of Microsoft fame.''

''In the Sherman’s case, it would mean that the bulk of their estimated $5-billion estate would go The Giving Pledge and not to family members or designated beneficiaries as laid out in a last will and testament.''