CANADA Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #17

[newclues]

Thank you for finding that. Judi Gottlieb was the agent and the realtor who found the report was her colleague Elise Stern, maybe Stern wasn’t aware or possibly she didn’t see the front cover.(?)

Any connection between Judi Gotlieb and Myron Gotlieb (Shaun Rootenberg)?

 

[newclues]

Thank you for finding that. Judi Gottlieb was the agent and the realtor who found the report was her colleague Elise Stern, maybe Stern wasn’t aware or possibly she didn’t see the front cover.(?)

Any connection between Judi Gotlieb and Myron Gotlieb (Shaun Rootenberg)?

Any connection between Judi Gotlieb and Myron Gotlieb (Shaun Rootenberg)?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/barry-sherman-lawsuit-1.4506346

 

[deugirtni]

A statement is made by the act of murder including body positioning, she says nothing about witness statements to police. “Making a statement” is a fairly common reference, could be something as simple as a big lock on a gate means no access.

BBM
“A cache of unsealed documents related to the murder of Barry and Honey Sherman is revealing new details about the investigation into the deaths of the Toronto billionaire couple, including an interview with one relative who believes "someone was making a statement" in their killings.”….

The ITOs show that in her second interview with police, Honey Sherman’s sister, Mary Shechtman, suggested the person responsible for the murders was “making a statement” and that she believed the motive for the killings may have been motivated by religion……

Relative believes 'someone was making a statement' in murder of Barry and Honey Sherman, unsealed documents show

Oh ok, yes.. I misinterpreted her words.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Any connection between Judi Gotlieb and Myron Gotlieb (Shaun Rootenberg)?

We searched in 2020 and prior to that, but couldn’t find a connection.

Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #14

 

[juli99]

Then who was the report for and when was it to be given to them?

I think it's just that the realtor wasn't expecting a home inspection report to be lying on the floor. They might not have even looked at what the papers were, if they were intent on showing the house. Just wanted to pick them up so it didn't look messy for the buyers.

 

[juli99]

I assume this floor plan has been shared here before? I've never seen it, but I haven't followed all the threads from the beginning. Helps me to understand where everything is in the house.

https://media.houssmax.ca/201711/29/5a1f32afd3797.pdf

 

[branmuffin]

Regarding the murders "making a statement" - whatever that statement was supposed to be, nobody has been able to figure out in five years. If it's a statement, it's very vague.

Regarding the 911 call - is it possible the call was from Honey but TPS have not released that info? That would make the most sense to me. They obviously would not know that day other than it being a cell phone, but after retrieving HS cell it would be obvious if she made the call. If she did make a 911 call - that's a timeframe. That's huge.

Regarding the home inspection papers. BS was carrying them loosely in his hands and not in a briefcase? Was that the only thing he had with him when he walked in that night? If so, seems like they were pretty important to what was going on.

Re the home inspection report. I have an inkling that Honey was the only one really involved in the planning of the new house as well as the selling of the current home. Probably because BS would never have been able to objectively assess his home on its features, or lack thereof, in the multi-million dollar housing market.

Based on BS's financial eccentricities I can see how he wanted a home inspection report to mull over because in his head he believed that the low asking price must have been based on the fact there were serious deficiencies in the building.

We're talking about Barry, a man who could drive a car into the ground before getting a replacement, and was probably blind to the fact the low asking price of $6.7 million was based on the knowledge the home was a knockdown for a new build. In essence, they were selling a building lot.

All he could see was a home he'd lived in quite happily for over 30 years. He couldn't see the clunky spiral staircase, the relentless use of glass block that just screamed 1980s, those dated atrium windows in the kitchen; pretty well the whole house was stuck in the 80s. We won't even talk about how off-putting an indoor pool is to potential buyers; even outdoor pools add minimum value to your home. It was a home that no one would want to renovate; it would be cheaper to knock it down. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the issue that Honey and Barry were going to discuss that night.

 

[casesensitive]

I went back to the Ontario Court of Appeal (August 2018) which overturned the sealing of the Sherman wills. The judges had a full report from TPS in order to rule on the appeal to disclose this information.

After 20 months into the TPS investigation, this judge who had the TPS report made his comments based on what he learned from their investigation, shown below. I think that we have come to the conclusion that this was a professional hit, and I think the judge voiced how difficult it will be to solve the case.



"Justice Michael Moldaver suggested the murders were “a very, very sophisticated crime, in my view, committed by a very sophisticated organization — at least it has those hallmarks.”

As a result, he said, the perpetrators would likely already know “who the beneficiaries are, who the children are, who the grandchildren are and everything else about this family.”

Unsealing files poses ‘grave safety risks,’ Shermans’ estate trustees tell top court

 

[juli99]

Re the home inspection report. I have an inkling that Honey was the only one really involved in the planning of the new house as well as the selling of the current home. Probably because BS would never have been able to objectively assess his home on its features, or lack thereof, in the multi-million dollar housing market.

Based on BS's financial eccentricities I can see how he wanted a home inspection report to mull over because in his head he believed that the low asking price must have been based on the fact there were serious deficiencies in the building.

We're talking about Barry, a man who could drive a car into the ground before getting a replacement, and was probably blind to the fact the low asking price of $6.7 million was based on the knowledge the home was a knockdown for a new build. In essence, they were selling a building lot.

All he could see was a home he'd lived in quite happily for over 30 years. He couldn't see the clunky spiral staircase, the relentless use of glass block that just screamed 1980s, those dated atrium windows in the kitchen; pretty well the whole house was stuck in the 80s. We won't even talk about how off-putting an indoor pool is to potential buyers; even outdoor pools add minimum value to your home. It was a home that no one would want to renovate; it would be cheaper to knock it down. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the issue that Honey and Barry were going to discuss that night.

If the realtor had a sense that whoever bought it was going to knock it down, I wonder why they would have requested a home inspection? Would a home inspection somehow appease Barry on the price?

 

[ldlager]

Any connection between Judi Gotlieb and Myron Gotlieb (Shaun Rootenberg)?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/barry-sherman-lawsuit-1.4506346

The 2 Gotliebs are not related

 

[MistyWaters]

If the realtor had a sense that whoever bought it was going to knock it down, I wonder why they would have requested a home inspection? Would a home inspection somehow appease Barry on the price?

How do we know Barry had to be appeased on the listing price? A home inspection report can have no direct connection to the listing price - unless there are serious issues that require costly repairs. In such an example those issues need to be disclosed to the buyer and there’s absolutely nothing to indicate this is the case. I think we’re beginning to add speculation onto speculation that’s not based on any facts.

Shermans’ home looked to be well-kept, well-maintained but it was simply aged and outdated. Substantial renovations often cost more than building new. However a realtor has no control over whether a buyer adds a condition for an inspection report in an offer and that’s why some homeowners have one prepared in advance.

 

[juli99]

How do we know Barry had to be appeased on the listing price? A home inspection report can have no direct connection to the listing price - unless there are serious issues that require costly repairs. In such an example those issues need to be disclosed to the buyer and there’s absolutely nothing to indicate this is the case. I think we’re beginning to add speculation onto speculation that’s not based on any facts.

Shermans’ home looked to be well-kept, well-maintained but it was simply aged and outdated. Substantial renovations often cost more than building new. However a realtor has no control over whether a buyer adds a condition for an inspection report in an offer and that’s why some homeowners have one prepared in advance.

Yes, it was my speculation based on someone else's speculation. The fact he was carrying them in his hand suggests to me that they were something he was "in the middle of." Something was going on, more than him just bringing them to the realtor. JMO

I've bought and sold a lot of houses. I had buyers once renegotiate the price after getting an inspection report. The only times I've ordered an inspection report (as the homeowner) was 1) getting a refinance and 2) when I was planning to sell privately. Otherwise, I've always just let the buyer get them and pay for them. Maybe it's different on a million-dollar home? You want to know how much the buyer is going to try to negotiate you down.

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes, it was my speculation based on someone else's speculation. The fact he was carrying them in his hand suggests to me that they were something he was "in the middle of." Something was going on, more than him just bringing them to the realtor. JMO

I've bought and sold a lot of houses. I had buyers once renegotiate the price after getting an inspection report. The only times I've ordered an inspection report (as the homeowner) was 1) getting a refinance and 2) when I was planning to sell privately. Otherwise, I've always just let the buyer get them and pay for them. Maybe it's different on a million-dollar home? You want to know how much the buyer is going to try to negotiate you down.

I thought it was believed Barry was attacked as he came from the attached garage entering the house carrying his gloves and papers and so he dropped them, not that he was in the middle of anything?

 

[juli99]

I thought it was believed Barry was attacked as he came from the attached garage entering the house carrying his gloves and papers and so he dropped them, not that he was in the middle of anything?

I meant he was in the middle of reading them/thinking about them. They were the main thing on his mind at the time, if they were the only thing in his hand. JMO

 

[branmuffin]

If the realtor had a sense that whoever bought it was going to knock it down, I wonder why they would have requested a home inspection? Would a home inspection somehow appease Barry on the price?

Since all we can do here is speculate, that's exactly why I think the home inspection was requested. Home inspections have become de rigueur in real estate deals over the years. Lately, though, with the housing market crunch some buyers are waiving inspections just to have their offer considered. So the onus is on the seller to provide one.

I believe, if the Shermans were still alive they would have sold their property with the realization that who ever bought it was going to demolish it and build another home. It happens with such regularity in Toronto, especially in these upper income neighbourhoods.

When I used to drive to work downtown I'd use Avenue Rd. Sometimes I'd take side streets to avoid traffic. There'd be lots of sleeping policemen to slow down the drivers but it was evident driving down streets off Oriole Pkwy and Avenue Rd that many homes built in the 1930s, and they weren't small, had been torn down to build huge homes right to the lot perimeter.

For the Sherman home to withstand the wrecking ball, at 12000 square feet it needed a buyer who liked the quirks. Not too many buyers willing to plonk down $7 mil, imo.

 

[Gina20]

Since all we can do here is speculate, that's exactly why I think the home inspection was requested. Home inspections have become de rigueur in real estate deals over the years. Lately, though, with the housing market crunch some buyers are waiving inspections just to have their offer considered. So the onus is on the seller to provide one.

I believe, if the Shermans were still alive they would have sold their property with the realization that who ever bought it was going to demolish it and build another home. It happens with such regularity in Toronto, especially in these upper income neighbourhoods.

When I used to drive to work downtown I'd use Avenue Rd. Sometimes I'd take side streets to avoid traffic. There'd be lots of sleeping policemen to slow down the drivers but it was evident driving down streets off Oriole Pkwy and Avenue Rd that many homes built in the 1930s, and they weren't small, had been torn down to build huge homes right to the lot perimeter.

For the Sherman home to withstand the wrecking ball, at 12000 square feet it needed a buyer who liked the quirks. Not too many buyers willing to plonk down $7 mil, imo.

"Sleeping policemen" = speed bumps.

 

[WINDSOR]

As mentioned before, I think timing and the occurrence of events are significant in this case. As I work on this aspect something has struck me as a bit unusual.

The Shermans were murdered Wednesday night. The bodies were staged in a particular way, with the expectation that the bodies would be discovered.

Did the killer(s) expect the bodies would be discovered on Thursday?

In fact they could have left Barry's papers and Honey's phone strewn about, so the household staff working on Thursday would recognize something amiss and go searching around the house.
But nobody did.

1) Was there household staff in the house on Thursday? Or was everybody off?
I believe a fitness trainer stopped in on Thursday, did not gain entry and after trying several times left. To me this points to the fact no regular staff were working. Did the killers know this?

2) If the killer(s) knew there was no staff in on Thursday, one could believe the killers planned it so they would have Thursday as a getaway day.

3) Who knew the staff schedules if Thursday was an off day?

4) Were the killers surprised or did they expect the bodies not to be found until Friday?

5) Was there any notification on the Real Estate sales listing about what days showing could or could not be arranged?

 

[newclues]

If the realtor had a sense that whoever bought it was going to knock it down, I wonder why they would have requested a home inspection? Would a home inspection somehow appease Barry on the price?

BS was going to make money on its sale for any price over $300,000 since he recouped around 2 million when he sued the builders.

 

[ldlager]

BS was going to make money on its sale for any price over $300,000 since he recouped around 2 million when he sued the builders.

Not really. He recouped $ but then had to pay to have the house repaired.
Anyways, BS wouldnt I'm sure have lost much or any sleep about the selling price of the home and the resultng profit or loss. $6 million, while alot to most of us, wasnt alot to BS in the grand scheme of things.

 

[ldlager]

As mentioned before, I think timing and the occurrence of events are significant in this case. As I work on this aspect something has struck me as a bit unusual.

The Shermans were murdered Wednesday night. The bodies were staged in a particular way, with the expectation that the bodies would be discovered.

Did the killer(s) expect the bodies would be discovered on Thursday?

In fact they could have left Barry's papers and Honey's phone strewn about, so the household staff working on Thursday would recognize something amiss and go searching around the house.
But nobody did.

1) Was there household staff in the house on Thursday? Or was everybody off?
I believe a fitness trainer stopped in on Thursday, did not gain entry and after trying several times left. To me this points to the fact no regular staff were working. Did the killers know this?

2) If the killer(s) knew there was no staff in on Thursday, one could believe the killers planned it so they would have Thursday as a getaway day.

3) Who knew the staff schedules if Thursday was an off day?

4) Were the killers surprised or did they expect the bodies not to be found until Friday?

5) Was there any notification on the Real Estate sales listing about what days showing could or could not be arranged?

AFAIK there has never been any disclosures or writing about household staff that was scheduled to work Thursday. But it is possible that they never worked Thursdays at the Shermans either.
I do not recall any report of a fitness trainer arriving Thursday. Friday yes, and they were refused entry to the home buy the police. As far as I remember.