Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #2

[JDG]

Is there confirmation of the use of male leather belts and their jackets being behind their backs, by anything other than the Daily UK?

I'm trying to read the entire thread 1 and 2, but it's taking a bit of time.

Does anyone have thoughts on the new cannabis pill that Sherman was looking to manufacture, as per the new article in Star posted last night?

Isn't that a departure from reproducing existing medicines?

Also - could his political influence have driven the fairly new practice by insurance companies to insist on a generic and less expensive medicine be used at all times, unless a specific note by the Dr.is issued necessitating the original medicine? That came into effect around 2 years ago, correct? What a way to increase business!

Re: Cannabis pills/other modes of dosing. Apotex was obviously trying to get licenced for it asap. Political influence can do many, many things that are 'mutually advantageous' which was on BSs list of things he thought worthwhile. He didn't 'do' things that weren't mutually advantageous if you believe his writings.

I thought it passed many years ago, as I have one RX that must be the original and my doc MUST write 'no substitutions' on every RX. It has been that way for years. I know the Toronto hospitals, and probably all others, only carry generics of most drugs. The only time Ive seen a name brand drug in a hospital was during some chemo and it was a new drug. IMO

 

[JDG]

Tortoise, I think the second car belonged to BS. Bet the realtor dropped her car on the road, thought it would be a quick visit to arrange a meeting with prospective buyer.

 

[JDG]

Time of death (TOD) has not been released, but it has been reported that Honey died somewhere other than the location where she was found. I can search for a link, but it was reported rather early in the case - it's not a new piece of info.

The ONLY official information is COD. Everything else is conjecture.

 

[JDG]

I think Honey was killed because she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. BS was the target, she may also have been but IMO more likely that she walked into the house first...... got further into the house, dropped her keys/purse......was killed.
BS came in a few seconds later and may have been closer to the door/or not. I believe they were chloroformed, then strangled. IMO

 

[DarkSkink]

If this were a street person or low income person, I am sure all these resources would not be used. Nor, would this many officers be involved. They were asked to do a thorough search and they are doing so. From what I have read, it appears the neighbours are a little bit put off by the number of officers constantly in the area....closing off the street might be a bit much. Don’t forget there are other elite people living in the area with political and social pull as well.

It's important to read the quotes posts are replying to. It keeps the discussion in context.

Some seem to think I'm saying LE isn't putting resources into the investigation. I haven't once said that. I, in fact, believe they are putting too many resources into a butt covering exercise if they truly believe it was a murder -suicide.

Tess Richey's family should be gathering information for a future action. When they complained about TPS's shoddy investigation into their daughter's murder, all they got was a "we'll review our practises", not a massive re-investigation complete with roof searches, sewer searches, and "an abundance of caution".

Someone theorized that since they are searching the sewers, it means they think something is there. I said, no, if they truly thought something was there, you would see much more resources devoted to the sewer search than there was.

 

[Inthedetails]

The ONLY official information is COD. Everything else is conjecture.

"An initial investigation has revealed that Honey was killed in a different location, then moved to the basement pool, police sources told the Toronto Sun."

https://nypost.com/2017/12/16/murder...ad-in-mansion/

LE might have since come to a different conclusion from their initial investigation, but we don't know that. They haven't corrected the reports of Honey being moved.

jmo

 

[DarkSkink]

"An initial investigation has revealed that Honey was killed in a different location, then moved to the basement pool, police sources told the Toronto Sun."

https://nypost.com/2017/12/16/murder...ad-in-mansion/

LE might have since come to a different conclusion from their initial investigation, but we don't know that. They haven't corrected the reports of Honey being moved.

jmo

With the very quick "murder/suicide" theory put out to the public, chances are there is some glaring evidence that one did something to the other, dragged the person to the basement, and then hung both the person, and then themselves.

One can imagine a physical fight, where one is battered, and one has hand damage, with bloody drag marks down steps to the basement. Perhaps not dead, the victim was then hung. The perp then hung themselves, perhaps minutes, or perhaps a few hours later in the same manner.

Blood splatter of one on the other, self defense wounds, skin under fingernails, scratch marks... all signs of a struggle between just the two victims. Something triggered the rush to judgement about a murder/suicide.

 

[catdctr]

Hi all. I am new to this forum.
Just thinking maybe police knew Honey was moved due to lividity?

 

[catdctr]

Hi all. I am new to this forum.
Just thinking maybe police knew Honey was moved due to lividity?

I am thinking this pattern would also point out time difference between time of death for Barry and Honey as lividity isn't instant - lividity progression is well documented as to timing correct?

 

[Midge Montana]

Hi all. I am new to this forum.
Just thinking maybe police knew Honey was moved due to lividity?

Welcome to Websleuths!
I had the same thought about lividity this morning while I was doing my 'crime thinking' in the shower, lol.
According to the link I will post, lividity starts after 30 minutes.
If Honey laid elsewhere for more than 30 minutes, her blood would have pooled in that position.
When she was hung later, would the blood then drain down, yet some of it stay in the original area (back if she'd been laying on her back, side if she'd been on her side, etc.)?
http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Death/Stages.html

I also think that the stages of rigor they were in may have been different, so telling that they were killed some time apart from each other.

 

[Lilibet]

Hi all. I am new to this forum.
Just thinking maybe police knew Honey was moved due to lividity?

I am thinking this pattern would also point out time difference between time of death for Barry and Honey as lividity isn't instant - lividity progression is well documented as to timing correct?

Welcome catdctr! :greetings: I think you make a good point about lividity.

Your name indicates that you might be a veterinarian. Members with medical knowledge are very helpful.

 

[DarkSkink]

Hi all. I am new to this forum.
Just thinking maybe police knew Honey was moved due to lividity?

It's a possibility, albeit a slight one. You can imagine what it would be like to try and hang a stiff body from a low railing. They both died of "ligature neck compression", so likely they both died from the hanging.

One may have strangled the other, and then tried to stage a scene of double murder, but it's more likely the victim was incapacitated, and then hung.

 

[pamelado2]

"An initial investigation has revealed that Honey was killed in a different location, then moved to the basement pool, police sources told the Toronto Sun."

https://nypost.com/2017/12/16/murder...ad-in-mansion/

LE might have since come to a different conclusion from their initial investigation, but we don't know that. They haven't corrected the reports of Honey being moved.

jmo

But again note it says "police sources", that's not an official statement.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[JDG]

With the very quick "murder/suicide" theory put out to the public, chances are there is some glaring evidence that one did something to the other, dragged the person to the basement, and then hung both the person, and then themselves.

One can imagine a physical fight, where one is battered, and one has hand damage, with bloody drag marks down steps to the basement. Perhaps not dead, the victim was then hung. The perp then hung themselves, perhaps minutes, or perhaps a few hours later in the same manner.

Blood splatter of one on the other, self defense wounds, skin under fingernails, scratch marks... all signs of a struggle between just the two victims. Something triggered the rush to judgement about a murder/suicide.

I suspect the reason for the rush to judgement about murder/suicide is because police are always attending 'domestics' and when a woman or man is murdered, esp in the home, its more often than not the spouse who did it. They didn't 'just' say murder/suicide, they supposed a double suicide as well but that didn't 'catch on' as a possibility. I also do not really think it was a judgement, just loose lips sinking ships. of course the media wants something sensational, something that sells papers. IMO

 

[kiwi50]

With the very quick "murder/suicide" theory put out to the public, chances are there is some glaring evidence that one did something to the other, dragged the person to the basement, and then hung both the person, and then themselves.

One can imagine a physical fight, where one is battered, and one has hand damage, with bloody drag marks down steps to the basement. Perhaps not dead, the victim was then hung. The perp then hung themselves, perhaps minutes, or perhaps a few hours later in the same manner.

Blood splatter of one on the other, self defense wounds, skin under fingernails, scratch marks... all signs of a struggle between just the two victims. Something triggered the rush to judgement about a murder/suicide.

Good suggestions, I’ve been wracking my brain trying to think what it could be that made them think murder/suicide so quickly.
I think the police still believe this as do most of the Sherman’s powerful friends, or they’d be shouting from the rooftops for more to be done. Seems they just want it to be called murder but the killer is unimportant.
Hard to imagine any other case when a potential double killer was on the loose, and the police didn’t ask the public for help.

 

[Researchnut]

meh. Large grain of salt here. The $11 billion company I worked for changed its name and the officers received death threats from employees. This gentleman does not sound mentally healthy.

How could Apotex have prevented him from getting medical care?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

I'm not sure how medical care was denied to Andrew Orlowski.by Apotex,however, I have dug a little deeper in other articles he quoted,or posted there.

http://www.pharmaholocaust.com/Apot...y-evidence-and-collaborated-by-witnesses.html

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onlrb/...ash=AAAAAQAIT3Jsb3dza2kAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=23

Much of it was written regarding his mistreatment by our Canadian legal procedures, but he does cite some interesting articles that lead to additional articles rgarding Apotexs' deep involvment with the Canadian government ,and numerous other countries governments.
IMO it does not look like the entity Apotex was very caring about humans.

Some inks from the site about due dilligance not being preformed in the pharmacutical companies.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...lth_canada_cant_block_dodgy_drug_imports.html

https://google2.fda.gov/search?q=ap...ds=-archive:Yes&output=xml_no_dtd&getfields=*

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/09/11/canadians_kept_in_dark_about_defective_drugs.html

Off topic but my personal favorite interview regarding the Shermans deaths https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy3jspjrWM8

 

[catdctr]

It's a possibility, albeit a slight one. You can imagine what it would be like to try and hang a stiff body from a low railing. They both died of "ligature neck compression", so likely they both died from the hanging.

One may have strangled the other, and then tried to stage a scene of double murder, but it's more likely the victim was incapacitated, and then hung.

I am not that sure of that but I would prefer this to be a professional hit for the family. Certainly the garage/pool area is the most accessible and quiet. Wonder if the police are looking for garage door opener?
But the question is why the police didnt have much doubt of body being moved? Why did they right away think this was murder/suicide?
As much as I do not wish this to be a murder suicide I think it is possible. If the body was moved prior to rigor (variable onset but 3 hours?) this would be physically possible particularly as he would only have to slide her under pool railing. Thing thing which gets me is why belts? Where do you see a belt rather than rope being a sensible murder weapon? I would think while getting undressed in bedroom this would be logical. I also hate to point out that the obvious person to know the house, the security, the timing and routine of staff how the lift worked (if he used this) and location of belts would be Barry himself.
He could have stangled her in a rage then regretted it all and had plenty of time and brains to move her dress her and arrange her so that the family would be spared the absolutr certainty that he killed their mother. He hung himself with a belt to match.
If he did this I doubt it was intentional but it seems in keeping with his character to try to spare the family.

 

[JDG]

I couldn't get any sound on your favourite interview. bummer

 

[JDG]

I am not that sure of that but I would prefer this to be a professional hit for the family. Certainly the garage/pool area is the most accessible and quiet. Wonder if the police are looking for garage door opener?
But the question is why the police didnt have much doubt of body being moved? Why did they right away think this was murder/suicide?
As much as I do not wish this to be a murder suicide I think it is possible. If the body was moved prior to rigor (variable onset but 3 hours?) this would be physically possible particularly as he would only have to slide her under pool railing. Thing thing which gets me is why belts? Where do you see a belt rather than rope being a sensible murder weapon? I would think while getting undressed in bedroom this would be logical. I also hate to point out that the obvious person to know the house, the security, the timing and routine of staff how the lift worked (if he used this) and location of belts would be Barry himself.
He could have stangled her in a rage then regretted it all and had plenty of time and brains to move her dress her and arrange her so that the family would be spared the absolutr certainty that he killed their mother. He hung himself with a belt to match.
If he did this I doubt it was intentional but it seems in keeping with his character to try to spare the family.

Lots of surmising but its all rumours. No one has said belts, moving a body or even hanging from a railing. Just 'sources'.
It seems Barry needed direction in dressing himself, which is a FACT given out by his sister in law, Mary.....so don't be so sure that he'd know where to find belts. or anything for that matter. It has been reported that Honey helped him pick which foods to eat and put out his clothing on a daily basis. 'sources' don't really count, the autopsy report hasn't been released (may never be if the family deep sixes it, as is their right).

All we know is COD. As for the family and how they'll cope, I just don't know. I feel for all of them, of course, but didn't her sister indicate that 'all she wanted to do was give it away"? She was flowing tears, right at the end of her eulogy...I didn't quite hear all of it but I think she said, in great distress, 'all she wanted to do was give.......away".

I do hope that between two autopsys, two investigations and with the help of Lawyer Greenspan, they do get some answers. Whatever the truth, it can't be worse than what they're dealing with now. G_d bless them.

 

[AllyJane]

I think Honey was killed because she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. BS was the target, she may also have been but IMO more likely that she walked into the house first...... got further into the house, dropped her keys/purse......was killed.
BS came in a few seconds later and may have been closer to the door/or not. I believe they were chloroformed, then strangled. IMO

This is a plausible scenario. Does anyone know if chloroform remains in the body to be picked up in a toxicology report? I do think the autopsy and toxicology report will be key. Were there any bumps on the head prior to death since the cause of death was determined to be ligature neck compression? Was there DNA under the victims' fingernails? Where there indications on the body of a struggle? Without these answers, I am not sure why police allegedly are focused on murder-suicide. I can see that being a working scenario but not a firm conclusion at this stage without all the evidence laid out.