Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #2

[Carioca]

Slightly OT, Carioca, but how much does this remind you of Rebecca Zahau's death? The interview with Brad Garret was very good at potentially explaining both cases.

Hi there Betty P! Lots of similarities and a bit of dejá vù. At least in this case, the powers that be will want to solve it by dotting their i's and crossing their t's rather than the gross negligence by San Diego SO imo. agree on Brad interview.. He may not be privy to this investigation, but there are often patterns that cannot be ignored.

 

[tarabull]

and now taking a few weeks to go over forensics in the house...not something that generally happens with a suicide.




I personally think the cops are being advised to do what they can and then close the case. This is probably a hit by someone far out of their ability to chase down and deal with, and they know it. Of course this is just my personal opinion.

:yeahthat:

 

[DarkSkink]

and now taking a few weeks to go over forensics in the house...not something that generally happens with a suicide.




I personally think the cops are being advised to do what they can and then close the case. This is probably a hit by someone far out of their ability to chase down and deal with, and they know it. Of course this is just my personal opinion.

Or they are giving the appearance of taking a few weeks to go over forensics. Take time, let the story die down, and then release the same murder-suicide assessment formally on a busy news day.

They know the family can afford to seriously scrutinize the investigation. Thus, they are likely completing an over thorough investigation. They wouldn't want a family hired private investigator to pull a random glove out of a sewer, and claim it to be something incriminating. Now, they can say, no, see, we pumped the sewers, and here are the pictures of the contents.

 

[matou]

Very interesting letter:

A search of the Star’s website on Saturday night revealed no fewer than 21 links to stories related to the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman, found dead in their home a week ago.

And not a single one about the death of Karla Groten, a mother of two who was killed on Thursday in a hit-and-run incident that lead to a slew of charges against a man alleged to be the driver.

We get it. Barry Sherman was a wealthy and influential man; he and his wife were well-connected and well-regarded. But Karla Groten was somebody, too, and her senseless death does not deserve to pass unremarked while the Star indulges in an orgy of Sherman coverage.

snipped...........

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/let...-extensively-while-others-get-no-mention.html

 

[Wondergirl]

Just as an observer of being married to a man for 20 years who I've only recently come to understand is most likely on the autism spectrum due to our dear son who is 11 years old and severely autistic, I just have to put my two cents in, even if it's completely unrelated. My husband is extremely intelligent, (but hopelessly inept socially, in my opinion). Day to day "stuff" eludes him. He could care less about mess, etc. although there is a fastidiousness about him in which he usually looks great in dress, hair, etc. there is a disconnect. He desires human interaction, and usually people love him but on a personal level he comes across as silent, uninterested, even cold. Unfortunately in the last year I have learned about a dark side. I don't want to go into detail but just want to be heard and understood that even the most gentle, quiet, exhausted, people can be capable of extreme narcissistic rage.


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Good post, Merbeach. I'm sorry about your hub.

 

[DarkSkink]

re: “ligature neck compression"

Do you really need a slip knot???? Maybe for the presentation....

With a belt wouldn't you just use the buckle??? Not a fastened buckle but using the loop of the actual buckle.....

And if the buckle was used (sinched closed and buckled) --- what about a Spanish Windlass -- where a stick or other object is placed under the ligature and twisted to constrict the ligature?

Read here under Ligature Strangulation

Is a Ligature Strangulation the same as a Ligature Compression???

:thinking:

ETA: I've seen a person get choked out at the hands of someone else with their own clothing...fwiw. (MMA)

You don't necessarily need a slip knot, but if you want to ensure success, because remember, you are no longer in control after you black out, then the ideal is to have something that keeps constricting the more weight you put on it.

You wouldn't want to just use a random loop and hope you don't fall out of it after you pass out and go limp. You also may instinctually claw at it and pull it off in a semi conscious state.

Imagine how big a belt loop is if you're just using the first hole. You could loop a belt and give it some twists yes. Then you wouldn't have to know, or rely on knots, especially with a piece of slippery leather. That does make sense as well, as long as you're confident you won't get your fingers in there to prevent constriction.

What happens after MMA fighters get choked out? They go limp, and then they come to once the compression is released.

 

[andreww]

Very interesting letter:

A search of the Star’s website on Saturday night revealed no fewer than 21 links to stories related to the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman, found dead in their home a week ago.

And not a single one about the death of Karla Groten, a mother of two who was killed on Thursday in a hit-and-run incident that lead to a slew of charges against a man alleged to be the driver.

We get it. Barry Sherman was a wealthy and influential man; he and his wife were well-connected and well-regarded. But Karla Groten was somebody, too, and her senseless death does not deserve to pass unremarked while the Star indulges in an orgy of Sherman coverage.

snipped...........

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/let...-extensively-while-others-get-no-mention.html

Yes, I get your point, but a hit and run does not have the interest that a case like this does, not just because of their wealth but because of the mysterious circumstances.

 

[southernmimi]

Why would an older man choose hanging as a way of murder then suicide? There are many other ways to end life that are quicker and less involved. Unless he was in very good physical condition, the method he chose would have been exhausting. I would think pharmaceuticals would be one of his first choices.

 

[Wondergirl]

I'm not sure why the opinion of an ex-FBI investigator is holding so much weight in this case since he was not there on the scene and is not part of this investigation at all. The Toronto officers on scene at the Sherman house were so calm when approached by reporters and I believe it when the officer says there is no danger to the public. These investigators have likely seen many, many variations of suicide similar to what was discovered at the Sherman house.

I get what you are saying about the FBI agent.

But as for Toronto officers saying no danger to the public - they said that after the murdered body of Marie France-Comeau was found as well, and it turns out she was heinously sexually assaulted and murdered by Russell William. The police were dead wrong, and Williams went on to prey on other unsuspecting victims.

Those types of statements by LE irritate me to no end.

I'm unsure about what happened to The Sherman's. I'm not inclined to believe an elaborate staging of murder-suicide, but, I'm also trying not to let my mind run wild with made for tv type movie scenarios with motive and storylines, because there's obviously alot that went on in The Sherman's extraordinary lives.

 

[andreww]

and now taking a few weeks to go over forensics in the house...not something that generally happens with a suicide.




I personally think the cops are being advised to do what they can and then close the case. This is probably a hit by someone far out of their ability to chase down and deal with, and they know it. Of course this is just my personal opinion.

Cops are just crossing their T's and dotting their I's. This is a very litigious family that has already stated that they believe the cops are mishandling this case if they think its a suicide. LE is going to make sure they miss absolutely nothing because they know at some point some family funded private investigator is going to challenge them on this.

 

[andreww]

And I hate the new look of the board btw

 

[DarkSkink]

Why would an older man choose hanging as a way of murder then suicide? There are many other ways to end life that are quicker and less involved. Unless he was in very good physical condition, the method he chose would have been exhausting. I would think pharmaceuticals would be one of his first choices.

What if it wasn't planned? What if it is the end result after a fight where one strangled the other in a fit of rage? If you don't have a gun at hand? If you don't have pills?

Does it not make sense, especially for someone elderly, to choose a low lying, easy to physically set up hanging scenario? If they were hanging from somewhere high up, the double murder scenario would make a bit more sense. The low lying location is actually consistent with what would be their obviously limited physical abilities.

 

[Wondergirl]

Do we have a weather pattern summary for the night of December 14th and morning of the 15th?

I see snow accumulation on this photo of Honey's car. I guess it was possibly taken on the 19th. However, there are 2 versions of snow on the car. So, I am not totally sure on when the photo's were taken (grasping here, but, hey, what else do we have?)

I have seen references for a blue car in their driveway also. Can someone provide that picture? Are there any other photo's from December 15th?

http://www.gettyimages.ca/photos/barry-sherman?family=editorial&phrase=barry sherman&sort=best

 

[Wondergirl]

Okay, here is the blue car, and here is Honey's car on Saturday the 17th. When you zoom in, there appears to be a dusting on the roof of her car, but, there is nothing on the blue car.

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/billiona...sherman-mourned-by-jewish-community-1.3726527

 

[Wondergirl]

Another version with the dusting on the blue car (bear with me, or scroll and roll, lol)

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=...aw0Vlc5h1toCSCQvYDb22fkF&ust=1514477926322549

 

[Wondergirl]

Fresh salt on the step of their home, December 15th.

http://nationalpost.com/news/toront...after-bodies-found-in-couples-toronto-mansion

 

[human]

That's assuming the hanging was staging a suicide, and that he cared about a legacy. What if he didn't care either way? He was apparently reluctant to even have things named after him. Legacy, didn't seem to be a motivating factor for him.

It may have simply been the most practical solution. If there were no guns in the house and he was at all squeamish, then what other options are there?

To stage the car accident, you'd still have to haul around that 180 pound body. It is probably safe to assume she had to be incapacitated in order to be hanged. Chances are this wasn't planned, but a progression of events.

Were it planned, then yes, maybe spend the time to find that perfect abutment, get her in the car and then make an excuse to go there and hope she doesn't grab the steering wheel or one of a hundred different variables that can interrupt the act.

But if there was a fight that included a point of no return, then hauling her into a vehicle to find a way to stage a car accident seems like a massive risk.

He did care about his legacy. That is if his mind had not changed since his writings in Africa

 

[RAISINISBACK]

All that is the stuff of TV and crime novels though. There are better ways to send a message, or get away with it, or have your way with victims.

What is most telling for me is that it took homicide 2 days to get involved, right after the family basically told LE that 'No, it's not a murder suicide.'.

I can't recall such an absurd event in a "murder" case previously. I have seen families publicly complain before, but never such a snap to it, ramp it up response from LE. Get the fire trucks. Get the pumper trucks. Bring in the big guns. The family told us we were wrong.

I'll gladly eat my words if someone is charged, but if ultimately LE announces it was a murder/suicide like originally thought, they just opened themselves up to a lot of criticism. Tess Richey's family should be following this closely. LE should not even be giving the appearance of pandering to the wealthy class, let alone actually doing it.

BBM

I agree. It took 2 days, a private investigator, a high powered lawyer and high level officials right up to the PM himself to get homicide involved. That really says it all to me.

This family is in denial, the way most families are when a family member kills someone or commits suicide. We have heard that "I don't believe it, he would never do something like that" from every family member from Kurt Cobain to Robin Williams to Heath Ledger to Stephan Paddock to Devin Kelley. Families just cannot admit that all their members are not perfect.

The LE on the scene made the call and yes mistakes are sometimes made by LE, but something in that crime scene led them to deem it a murder suicide right out of the gate.

I feel for these kids, they lost their parents in one of the most cruel and needless ways imaginable. But it is a lot of time and money wasted to appease a rich and powerful family when they could be spending it solving a real murder. IMO when the LE come back with a murder suicide they need to send these rich kids the bill for all the man hours and money spent on equipment and resources and make them pay it.

JMO

 

[Sanz]

Many of us are far from rich and often might* wonder...what do the rich have to worry about?

A US News and World Report article, notes that “over 80% of people worth $20 million or more worry about being the target of a lawsuit,” and putting their wealth at risk.

It would further the beliefs that impending lawsuits involving the Shermans, yet to be resolved. Could have been a motive for a "murder/suicide".

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nealeg...rry-about-money-what-do-the-rich-worry-about/



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[human]

Could the blue car be a worker or the real estate agent?