Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #2

[otto]

I agree...still a lot of unanswered questions as to why THAT way...and why at all...but, unbelievable as it may seem, it is simplest and most rational explanation given the reaction of police (no suspects) and early reports (assuming they were accurate).

I'm not going to even try to speculate how or why or the circumstances around HS's death, but the followup and timeline would seem to support a murder (accidental or otherwise) and suicide. MOO

So sad for those left behind

I doubt we'll ever know why this happened, but murder-suicide is what police are saying.

A very successful school friend of my father did the same thing. Out of the blue we heard that he shot his wife and then shot himself. They were found in bed together. There was no explanation and nothing made sense, but it was without doubt a murder-suicide.

I keep going back to the house that was in the wife's name, and which was recently demolished. Maybe she made that decision on her own, and he had just learned about it. As a man in his mid-seventies, I think he could find it excessive to have to go through all the problems that they experienced with building the house where they were murdered. The house that was demolished is only a couple of blocks from the house that is for sale. They bought it at least a year ago, and only recently put their current house on the market. There must be a reason why they waited at least a year to put the house on the market, and to demolish the house two blocks away. The house activity seems to be the only recent thing that happened in their lives, and if the wife made the decisions without full agreement of the husband, that could have caused him to become so upset that he strangled her. Afterward, he would have realized that his life as a free man is gone, so he took his own life as well.

 

[Tighthead]

You are likely right, but I wouldn't completely rule out an insurance policy as an incentive for murder. It might be an obvious place to look if someone is named as a beneficiary, particularly since there is a tax incentive to name beneficiaries instead of having the insurance payout go back into the estate.

It’s not a tax incentive though, it only saves probate fees of 1.5%. It does save time.

The only likely named named beneficiaries are his wife and children, and the children are likely already wealthy and will inherit anyway.

 

[Inthedetails]

Thanks to movies and TV shows, many people believe that suicide notes are common, and that such notes provide answers to tormenting questions. The real world is quite different. Only 15 to 38% of people who die by suicide leave a note, according to results of 5 studies published in the last 10 or so years.

https://www.speakingofsuicide.com/2014/04/23/the-unwritten-goodbye/

The only suicide I've known somewhat personally (a cousin I barely knew) was a man in his 20s. He did not leave a note, but he did get his affairs in order before he killed himself.

I'm sure there are statistics about how few suicide victims get their affairs in order before they kill themselves, just like there are stats about the percentage of people who leave notes.

Still...this particular suicide (if it is a suicide) was a man who would seem to place some value on not wasting resources on figuring out if this was a suicide or murder. I wouldn't expect a "therapy-session" type note explaining his feelings, but rather a straight-forward note to say how to handle his financial affairs, for example. I'd expect some clear direction from him, even if only a sentence.

Just my personal reflection on the case, whether it matches the stats or not. jmo

 

[Satchie]

One sticky point for me regarding murder-suicide theory is surely Barry would have realized mystery and unanswered questions would arise - so you would think he'd leave a note. Perhaps not an emotional note, as that might not be his style, but a simple statement so others wouldn't put time, effort, and resources into trying to figure out what happened.

He doesn't seem like the guy who would create drama, but would rather things be straightforward. Yet, this isn't straightforward and he didn't leave a note.

JMO, on the fence :fence:

Suicide, murder-suicide aren't straight-forward, IMO. The sense of shame is immense, it's probably what keeps many people from doing it.

I was thinking, trying to view it from the point of view of someone in Barry's position, who had become deeply suicidal, for whatever reason. Wants to kill himself, but, what of his wife? She would be very unhappy, possibly humiliated by his suicide, it would blight her remaining life. Better she should die now, with him.

Just speculation, but I don't think it need be motivated by meanness or cruelty, just a certain clear-eyed lack of sentiment.

 

[zencompass]

Watching the Memorial, my heart was saddened for the children.

They had a "lost" look to them - still in shock I would imagine.

 

[human]

Thanks to movies and TV shows, many people believe that suicide notes are common, and that such notes provide answers to tormenting questions. The real world is quite different. Only 15 to 38% of people who die by suicide leave a note, according to results of 5 studies published in the last 10 or so years.

https://www.speakingofsuicide.com/2014/04/23/the-unwritten-goodbye/

I know that, but it seems like with a pragmatist organized person like Barry he would get his affairs in order.

He seemed to think quite highly of himself as evidenced by his writings when he was in Africa, although it was 20 years ago. It seems like he would justify whatever he does.

Usually suicide is planned in advance.

It bothers me even more that she was strangled thinking about the throat cancer.

Do you all think it was planned in advance or was it the result of a fight?

I thought something happened in the garage, but since the cars were not there, then that seems unlikely.

It is strange that the cars were in the street. Honey had arthritis and a cold car would be difficult. Leather seats are particularly cold. I would imagine she had the heated seat option but that takes a while to heat up.

Did it happen the night before? It seems like it as it would seem as if staff would notice them getting up.

If it happened the night before, why was the staff not making breakfast?

Was it usual for them to disappear with no instructions?

 

[human]

Thanks to movies and TV shows, many people believe that suicide notes are common, and that such notes provide answers to tormenting questions. The real world is quite different. Only 15 to 38% of people who die by suicide leave a note, according to results of 5 studies published in the last 10 or so years.

https://www.speakingofsuicide.com/2014/04/23/the-unwritten-goodbye/

I know that, but it seems like with a pragmatist organized person like Barry he would get his affairs in order.

He seemed to think quite highly of himself as evidenced by his writings when he was in Africa, although it was 20 years ago. It seems like he would justify whatever he does.

Usually suicide is planned in advance.

It bothers me even more that she was strangled thinking about the throat cancer.

Do you all think it was planned in advance or was it the result of a fight?

I thought something happened in the garage, but since the cars were not there, then that seems unlikely.

It is strange that the cars were in the street. Honey had arthritis and a cold car would be difficult. Leather seats are particularly cold. I would imagine she had the heated seat option but that takes a while to heat up.

Did it happen the night before? It seems like it as it would seem as if staff would notice them getting up.

If it happened the night before, why was the staff not making breakfast?

Was it usual for them to disappear with no instructions?

 

[PaulR]

It’s not a tax incentive though, it only saves probate fees of 1.5%. It does save time.

The only likely named named beneficiaries are his wife and children, and the children are likely already wealthy and will inherit anyway.

You can also just avoid probate with a living trust, which aren't all that expensive to set up.

 

[otto]

I know that, but it seems like with a pragmatist organized person like Barry he would get his affairs in order.

He seemed to think quite highly of himself as evidenced by his writings when he was in Africa, although it was 20 years ago. It seems like he would justify whatever he does.

Usually suicide is planned in advance.

It bothers me even more that she was strangled thinking about the throat cancer.

Do you all think it was planned in advance or was it the result of a fight?

I thought something happened in the garage, but since the cars were not there, then that seems unlikely.

It is strange that the cars were in the street. Honey had arthritis and a cold car would be difficult. Leather seats are particularly cold. I would imagine she had the heated seat option but that takes a while to heat up.

Did it happen the night before? It seems like it as it would seem as if staff would notice them getting up.

If it happened the night before, why was the staff not making breakfast?

Was it usual for them to disappear with no instructions?

Maybe he did get his affairs in order. One of the news reports I quoted upthread states that it's possible that the wife was killed first in another part of the house. Yesterday there was discussion that when the bodies were removed from the house, one was flat, the other was not. That supports the theory that one was killed first, and the other died several hours later - one in rigor, one not.

They were both dressed, so this did not happen after they went to bed. That is, a stranger did not enter the home in the middle of the night, approach them when they were most vulnerable, to murder them and hang them next to the pool. This most likely happened on Wednesday night. I've read that bodies are rigid for about thirty six hours after death. They were found at noon on Friday. The wife would no longer be rigid on Friday morning. If the husband was still rigid, then perhaps he committed suicide on Thursday morning.

 

[Jealoushe]

Has a forensic unit ever taken more than 5 days to declare something a suicide?

 

[Satchie]

I know that, but it seems like with a pragmatist organized person like Barry he would get his affairs in order.

He seemed to think quite highly of himself as evidenced by his writings when he was in Africa, although it was 20 years ago. It seems like he would justify whatever he does.

Usually suicide is planned in advance.

It bothers me even more that she was strangled thinking about the throat cancer.

Do you all think it was planned in advance or was it the result of a fight?

I thought something happened in the garage, but since the cars were not there, then that seems unlikely.

It is strange that the cars were in the street. Honey had arthritis and a cold car would be difficult. Leather seats are particularly cold. I would imagine she had the heated seat option but that takes a while to heat up.

Did it happen the night before? It seems like it as it would seem as if staff would notice them getting up.

If it happened the night before, why was the staff not making breakfast?

Was it usual for them to disappear with no instructions?

Can't answer all those questions yet.

Barry Sherman apparently didn't go to work Thursday, and IIRC there was a published rumor that the deaths occurred Wednesday.

I don't know whether they had servants, per se. It's not really so pleasant any more to have strangers around, serving breakfast, etc. Honey may have been accustomed to making simple meals.

Quite likely they had cleaners, though, in regularly to keep the areas where they lived clean. I expect cleaners'd be scheduled to come at regular times, and not require a great deal of interaction with the Shermans. Another rumour is that a staff person was in the home before the bodies were found.

With regard to cars, people often don't use their garage, I've noticed, especially if you have to go down a flight of stairs to get to it. Especially now, that you can turn on the car to warm it up from indoors.

I wonder if the car has gps, and could reveal where Honey'd been.

EDITED to add: the SUV wasn't parked in the street, but in the driveway.

Also, they may have regularly been out of their home during the day.

 

[Tighthead]

You can also just avoid probate with a living trust, which aren't all that expensive to set up.

I’m sure that trusts were a part of the estate and tax plan for sure. Creating a trust isn’t too expensive, but the management has ongoing expenses which may be similar to the 1.5 per cent probate, and it’s an annual fee, plus a separate tax return. It’s a good tool, but only in exceptional circumstances will someone put all their assets into one.

In Canada, in most situations, avoiding probate creates more problems than it helps.

Anyway, I’m sure the Sherman estate plan is thorough, diverse and tax-advantaged.

 

[Jennifer17]

Has a forensic unit ever taken more than 5 days to declare something a suicide?

I am not sure that they would have to declare it to anyone but the family .

 

[Jealoushe]

I am not sure that they would have to declare it to anyone but the family .

I would think at this point they would be inclined to release it to the media with all the attention?

 

[JDG]

I doubt we'll ever know why this happened, but murder-suicide is what police are saying.

A very successful school friend of my father did the same thing. Out of the blue we heard that he shot his wife and then shot himself. They were found in bed together. There was no explanation and nothing made sense, but it was without doubt a murder-suicide.

I keep going back to the house that was in the wife's name, and which was recently demolished. Maybe she made that decision on her own, and he had just learned about it. As a man in his mid-seventies, I think he could find it excessive to have to go through all the problems that they experienced with building the house where they were murdered. The house that was demolished is only a couple of blocks from the house that is for sale. They bought it at least a year ago, and only recently put their current house on the market. There must be a reason why they waited at least a year to put the house on the market, and to demolish the house two blocks away. The house activity seems to be the only recent thing that happened in their lives, and if the wife made the decisions without full agreement of the husband, that could have caused him to become so upset that he strangled her. Afterward, he would have realized that his life as a free man is gone, so he took his own life as well.

The homes are in totally different neighbourhoods. Where they are is north of the old city limits and where the new house was to be built is in Forest Hill, a very posh area of the downtown area. I would imagine they were awaiting demolition and building permits from the city of Toronto.
It can take awhile to get permits, often close to a year, esp as the home she purchased was a fine home. She just wanted to change it, possibly to another modern style. The excavation was just recently finished. Meanwhile, live in your previous home and get a reasonable closing date that suits. They've had a busy year, a new grandchild a couple of weeks ago, a daughter preparing to marry shortly and the new house.
I really DOUBT that its about the house. Money isn't an issue, someone will do all the moving for them, etc.

This could well be a case where the public never knows, if its a suicide/murder I don't think the family will want that given out. JMO

 

[Tighthead]

Has a forensic unit ever taken more than 5 days to declare something a suicide?

Its hard to imagine this case is the first time in history it has taken this long.

There is a chance a conclusion has been reached by forensics and it has yet to be signed off on by the investigators. They may also be keeping findings quiet out of respect for the family and for political appeasement.

 

[PaulR]

I’m sure that trusts were a part of the estate and tax plan for sure. Creating a trust isn’t too expensive, but the management has ongoing expenses which may be similar to the 1.5 per cent probate, and it’s an annual fee, plus a separate tax return. It’s a good tool, but only in exceptional circumstances will someone put all their assets into one.

In Canada, in most situations, avoiding probate creates more problems than it helps.

Anyway, I’m sure the Sherman estate plan is thorough, diverse and tax-advantaged.

Maybe it is different in Canada, but I've never paid a fee for assets in a living trust; that's true of banks, credit unions, brokerages, etc. It's just in the name of "The Living Trust of PaulR dated xx/yy/zzzz" instead "PaulR." The only real hassle is bringing in a copy of the trust so they can make a photocopy of it for their records.

 

[JDG]

The Police Chief has stated that anything they have to say will go first to the family. If the family wants privacy, they have that right unless murder is involved. All the police are likely to say is 'The Sherman case has been closed'

They owe the media nothing. They owe the public nothing. JMO

 

[Tighthead]

Maybe it is different in Canada, but I've never paid a fee for assets in a living trust; that's true of banks, credit unions, brokerages, etc. It's just in the name of "The Living Trust of PaulR dated xx/yy/zzzz" instead "PaulR." The only real hassle is bringing in a copy of the trust so they can make a photocopy of it for their records.

You do pay to have money invested/managed regardless, so a trust is the same as non trust assets in most cases, although sometimes a little more expensive depending on how it is managed and how arms length it is.

I think at the Sherman level an inter vivos trust is going to have professional asset managers and may even have an extra trustee who is a C.A. or tax lawyer.

Anyway, I’m sure I’ve bored enough people.

Edit: if you are in the States the use of trusts and avoidance of estate taxes is much more commonplace. Apples and oranges.

 

[otto]

Maybe it is different in Canada, but I've never paid a fee for assets in a living trust; that's true of banks, credit unions, brokerages, etc. It's just in the name of "The Living Trust of PaulR dated xx/yy/zzzz" instead "PaulR." The only real hassle is bringing in a copy of the trust so they can make a photocopy of it for their records.

The problem with that type of document is that if one of the children dies before the parents, then the descendants of the deceased child are automatically excluded from the inheritance. It's a good option in families where there is only one child.