Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #2

[jillycat]

Please accept my condolences on your loss of your son. A parent never fully recovers from the death of a child. Believe me I have been there four times myself. Mine were infants who lived only a few days and passed away in the hospital, but still it is always with me. I know how you feel.

My SIl's oldest son committed suicide back in 1972. He shot himself in a parked car. She still says often she believes someone killed him. But evidence at the scene and statements from friends and co workers about his being depressed and drinking for months prior ( she had not seen him for about 6 months since he lived and worked out of state) convinces me he did indeed kill himself. I never tell her that though.

Recently, during hurricane Harvey in fact, my great nephew committed suicide after a a fight with his wife. He had just returned from Afghanistan and was diagnosed with PTSD shortly after he returned. He disappeared the first night the hurricane hit and his body was not found for three weeks after. Because of flood waters the gun used was not found close to his body in the car but instead was in the floorboard. The first thing she said was "no way he killed himself. Someone must have tried to rob him during the hurricane and shot him during the robbery." Even though she knew he had PTSD and was very depressed and that there was a clear cut trigger (the fight with his wife) she still struggles with it every single day. She told me a few days ago that she feels such an overwhelming sense that she failed him as a mother. I told her that no way she could have foreseen his returning from the army with PTSD. I told her that no way could she have watched him or been with him 24/7. That she did all she could when she talked him into getting help for his PTSD. She still sometimes says no way he killed himself, it must have been someone else who killed him.

A year ago a 21 year old friend of my grandson hung himself from a tree down by a pond on his dad's land. The boy was at our house often and I had seen that boy just a few days prior. He was showing me pictures of his newborn baby girl on his cell phone. I will always remember how proud he was that day of that baby. A few days later he told his wife and dad that if anyone wanted him he would be down by the pond. Two hours later his 14 year old brother went to tell him dinner was ready and everyone was waiting on him to come to eat. He was hanging face down from a low hanging tree limb with a rope around his neck. My grandson still says no way he killed himself. Someone else must have killed him.

So I do have some experience in families that are in denial when their relatives commit suicide. As my niece said, they feel such an overwhelming sense that they failed their relative. It is easier to blame someone else rather than go through the agony of "If only I had... If only I had known.... I too have played the questioning game where my great nephew and that boy who was my grandsons friends is concerned. But in my heart I know the truth is that life just got too much for them so they decided to check themselves out of it.

I mean no hostility toward the Sherman kids. I know they lost their parents in the worst way ever. I know the anger, the loss, the guilt, the grief the denial they feel. I have felt that same anger, loss grief and guilt and denial and I know it is easier to blame a vague stranger than to blame a loved one.

JMO

I'm sorry you've been through this. And I realize that loved ones are often shocked or in disbelief. My point is that when law enforcement calls the manner of death (and to the media!) before they complete (or even start) an investigation, and when the manner can only be ruled on by the ME, they are already off course. You cannot objectively go on a fact finding mission if you've already decided the facts.

In my own case, I was right as rain about the tale being utterly fantastical and implausible. I had to spend exhaustive amounts of time parsing BS from facts, and the impossible from the plausible. So instead of being a mother and entering the deep grieving that is part of this, I had to be a detective and a logician and chase information from multiple and my own cross-referenced sources, because police and the coroner's office couldn't tell the same story twice - and all because they were lazy, judgmental, and eating out of the hand of a person who has since been discovered to be lying to everyone.

Three people know what happened the morning of my son's death. One is dead, one is lying and one was never even interviewed.

The family has enough to manage without unnecessary questions. It's one thing to receive sober and evidenced-backed answers and not believe them. It's another to have to insist that a full investigation should be the source of the answers, and to seek evidence and findings on your own when confidence is lost because authorities were prematurely lippy, or just plain sloppy.

Maybe the Sherman family will not accept anything but a double murder ruling. But that isn't the issue. The police have a job no matter what the family is likely to believe.

 

[Russian Blue]

- the belts. If Barry murdered Honey in the garage or basement area in a fit of anger why then go all the way upstairs to his closet to get the belts? Its a long trek, he then has to drag the body to the pool area and then stage both their deaths. Wouldn't there be a more convenient way to kill himself and stage her? Not sure what, but the belts are not a very obvious solution - quite lateral thinking. And I'd presume if you murder someone in a fit of anger you'd be in a bit of a panic and worrying about someone discovering you.

Here is where I agree that I also have a problem with murder - suicide. Sit for a moment and actually think about every movement, energy expended, time lapse that it would take to do this. I am not pointing out anything new here. It takes a lot of effort, energy and strength to kill some one first, then to move them and hang them up so to speak. A lot. I don't think he did this it was too much for an older man and she was a heavy woman. A dead body is very heavy and hard to manage unless you are physically strong, very strong.

 

[Inthedetails]

Here is where I agree that I also have a problem with murder - suicide. Sit for a moment and actually think about every movement, energy expended, time lapse that it would take to do this. I am not pointing out anything new here. It takes a lot of effort, energy and strength to kill some one first, then to move them and hang them up so to speak. A lot. I don't think he did this it was too much for an older man and she was a heavy woman. A dead body is very heavy and hard to manage unless you are physically strong, very strong.

What about using a chair with wheels on it? Plenty of homes have office chairs or kitchen chairs with wheels on them.

Edited to add: I mean...using a chair with wheels to transport the body.

Just thinking aloud.

 

[Jasper52]

What about using a chair with wheels on it? Plenty of homes have office chairs or kitchen chairs with wheels on them.

Edited to add: I mean...using a chair with wheels to transport the body.

Just thinking aloud.

How do you maneuver the stairs?

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

How do you maneuver the stairs?

We don't know where she was moved from. It could have been another part of the basement.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[Inthedetails]

How do you maneuver the stairs?

Carry the body down them or have a chair upstairs and another downstairs.

It's not like the guy was an invalid. Given determination, he could move the body in whatever way he could figure out.

Edited to add: we also don't know what floor she was killed on. Perhaps no stairs were involved at all.

jmo

 

[Tighthead]

I'm sorry you've been through this. And I realize that loved ones are often shocked or in disbelief. My point is that when law enforcement calls the manner of death (and to the media!) before they complete (or even start) an investigation, and when the manner can only be ruled on by the ME, they are already off course. You cannot objectively go on a fact finding mission if you've already decided the facts.
.

In this case we have one unofficial comment from a police officer saying that the initial impression was murder suicide. We have no idea as to the rank and role of that officer. His or her comment, in the circumstances, means nothing.

To conclude from that the investigation is off course and constituted a “call” of any actual effect seems to also lack objectivity. We really know nothing about the actual manner in which the investigation has proceeded.

 

[jillycat]

Thank you jillycat.
Very moving.
I hope you are very satisfied, and proud of yourself, that you did all you could.

Almost 20 years ago, a family member died, and I was very suspicious.
I'm afraid, I did not have your tenacity, and accepted the report.
I was naive, feeling these 'experts', would be correct, that I am just a nuisance.
This was years before my venturing into Websleuths, now seeing how wrong these 'expert' decisions and findings can be..

Bless you, I am so sorry you've been through this. There is nothing worse than feeling that an inquiry just wasn't done.

Part of the problem in suspected suicides is the cultural ideology, including prevention and bereavement culture narrative. Suicidal people are routinely viewed as both 'mentally ill' and exercising their 'free will'.

In the Sherman case, the whole scenario, at least based on the little the public knows, is so bizarre that I can't honestly weigh in on the manner. And there is so much stereotyping and character-casting of not only suicide and murder-suicide, but the elderly.

I just hope the ruling is publicized, regardless of the outcome, because the whispers and speculation the family will endure if there is silence will only magnify a double suicide or murder-suicide ruling, should one of those be the case. Obviously, if it's double murder, that will be very public.

No matter what happened, this family is forever changed and may even be divided before it's over.

 

[JDG]

It's my understanding that she picked out his clothes and food....because he wasn't interested in those tasks and for that reason only.

He didn't care what he looked like and probably didn't spend any amount of time thinking about meals or what to eat - so she took on those tasks for him. It sounds like a division of labor and partnership that they worked out within their marriage.

Nothing I've read indicates Honey was controlling. She seems outgoing, vivacious, and well loved.

jmo

They had both had serious health issues, of the physical kind, so I would imagine she was trying to keep him on a healthy diet as much as possible. As with the clothing, he probably had little interest as long as he ate something. JMO

Jillycat, I am so very sorry that has happened to you.

 

[jillycat]

In this case we have one unofficial comment from a police officer saying that the initial impression was murder suicide. We have no idea as to the rank and role of that officer. His or her comment, in the circumstances, means nothing.

To conclude from that the investigation is off course and constituted a “call” of any actual effect seems to also lack objectivity. We really know nothing about the actual manner in which the investigation has proceeded.

I think if you read what I said, it's apparent that my remark was not a conclusion that this case is off course. I said that if law enforcement (meaning any law enforcement agency and also this one) decides facts and blabbers a presumed manner of death to the media before an investigation is concluded - and I would add in particular any 'unofficial initial impressions' - they are off course. I don't believe the rank or role of the person matters. I do believe that regardless of rank or role, it lacks objectivity to share with the press your 'impressions' of a barely commenced investigation.

 

[kiwi50]

One thing we need to realise, Barry’s partner said at memorial he was the smartest person he knew, if he was involved, I could see him thinking outside the square, and doing it in a way we wouldn’t consider, plus I think he could do it dispassionately, especially if some of our thoughts on Aspergers are correct.

Still totally on the fence here, only because of what the police said initially. If they hadn’t suggested murder/suicide, I’d assume double murder.

 

[AllyJane]

Thank you Jillycat for sharing your difficult story.

I had a family member murdered (strangled) in Toronto many years ago in a business location. No forced entry. Security camera tapes missing. A big shipment came in that day (I prefer not to get into details to protect identities). The police thought it was insurance fraud gone wrong. While the LE took time to follow their path which included interviewing family and coworkers, it was one clue from a coworker that led them on the path of the right conclusion that it was not insurance fraud and committed by someone unconnected to the family. LE can surmise all they want from the initial crime scene. The problem is when they announce it and then they have to bend the evidence to fit it. I am not saying that LE is doing this in the Sherman case but it is concerning.

I can understand why LE feels the public is not in danger if it was a targetted hit. Sometimes they will say that so the public (especially the wealthy neighbours) don't go into a panic. It is also interesting how long it took them to confirm the names of the deceased. The LE only have to notify one member of kin before releasing the names but they wouldn't tell for days.

Anyway I think Shiva ends tomorrow and I wouldn't be surprised if an LE announcement came after New Year's. IMO

 

[Tighthead]

I think if you read what I said, it's apparent that my remark was not a conclusion that this case is off course. I said that if law enforcement (meaning any law enforcement agency and also this one) decides facts and blabbers a presumed manner of death to the media before an investigation is concluded - and I would add in particular any 'unofficial initial impressions' - they are off course. I don't believe the rank or role of the person matters. I do believe that regardless of rank or role, it lacks objectivity to share with the press your 'impressions' of a barely commenced investigation.

So a comment made by a constable holding the perimeter and a comment made by the lead investigator are of equal weight to you?

If they have seen the entire crime scene and have not reached a conclusion but think one outcome is more likely than another have they lost objectivity?

Aren’t there thoughts and actions more critical in considering their objectivity than their words?

 

[jillycat]

So a comment made by a constable holding the perimeter and a comment made by the lead investigator are of equal weight to you?

If they have seen the entire crime scene and have not reached a conclusion but think one outcome is more likely than another have they lost objectivity?

Aren’t there thoughts and actions more critical in considering their objectivity than their words?

Are you asking me if I think blabbering to the press about an impression, which is different than a completed investigative ruling, is justified as long as it's the lead investigator doing the blabbering?

My point has been that if the investigation just started, no one knows what the factual conclusions will be, so why discuss what things 'look' like? All this has done is cause more family stress and reaction, and now we have the police cast as victims because it's perceived that the family is pressuring them and making them search sewers and impound a car. ?

Wouldn't it be more objectively reasonable to go about one's police business, not fire up the press with first impression speculation, and let the sum total of evidence, including coroner ruling on manner, lead where it leads?

 

[Teche]

Thank you for sharing. I would do the same thing as you if it was a loved one.

Ok, I'm going to finally weigh in here. These derogatory stereotypes/getting inside the minds of families whose loved ones die by suicide, or where there is a suicide ruling, are getting old. I can tell you exactly why the Sherman family came out with the statement about the initial leap to a murder-suicide conclusion.

I lost my son in January 2016 and it was ruled a suicide, which it may have been. But the police were lazy and decided it was a suicide before a single detective or CSI was on scene, or a single witness was questioned. This was all ultimately based on a narrative by the 911 caller who was the most likely person to be complicit and had begun hand feeding police a big bowl of word salad that they eagerly swallowed. Dispatch, of all sources, declared "suicide" to a family member out of state after she had been called by the panicked salad tosser who was about to load her pants that my son was dead and police were showing up.

What I can tell you about death 'investigations', at least in my city, where there is any suspicion of suicide and where 'homicide' doesn't jump out and hit the police in the head, the inquiry is shrugged off as a perfunctory walking around the scene, and leaning on the autopsy for opinion on what happened. In my son's case, there was a 'Ya, it's suicide' conclusion at the scene, followed by a working backwards to make select pieces, primarily promoted by the (lying) third party, align with the rushed theory.

Thankfully, families often conduct their own investigations and I did mine all on my own. I started with the convoluted police and autopsy reports which defied what the third party told police. There is, for example, a 54 minute gap in the timeline which means that for the tale and time frame told to police to be true, my son would have to have shot himself, waited 54 minutes, then shot himself again with the same bullet. According to CSI who wandered belatedly to the scene after yammering with the third party, the gun was here, then it was there, and my son's hands weren't bagged or swabbed, nor were the hands of two people central to that morning's events even checked. The gun was not my son's every day carry. The second person was not even interviewed by police. The ruling came within 6 hours of my son's body being found. The detective had multiple implausible timelines, despite supposedly having a read a phone log that was central to the timeline. She did not look at my son's phone, and she only glanced at the 'recents' on the other party's phone then handed the phone back to her.

When I asked where everyone was and who had control of what phone and when, I was screamed at and told "NOTHING is going to change the outcome of this investigation!"

So, I went on a journey. Into 5 years of my son's electronic footprint, that included all his communications until the last 4 hours and 4 minutes of his precious life. What was said to have happened did not happen. Was it suicide? Maybe. Was it murder? Maybe. And there is a lot of in between that is just plain sinister and an ambush style luring. I would call what I discovered bone-chilling and so mind-bending, I will never recover.

This business of families allegedly being too stoopid, too in denial, too distraught, or even mentally ill themselves, and lacking basic sense - while perfect strangers who free these cases from the facts (by never looking for them in the first place) are viewed as speakers of gospel, is, for me, over. As for costs, our citizens here can be confident that no nickel that might have led to the truth was even spent.

I don't know the Sherman family. I don't know the private dynamics of the marriage of Barry and Honey Sherman. I don't know what happened because I don't have the complete set of facts and evidence from the scene or elsewhere. But I can tell you that the only road to a sober and reasonable conclusion to a "suspicious" death investigation is to actually have a complete investigation that truly eliminates all other possibilities.

This family was absolutely right to say, WHOA, Nellie, we are not there yet."

In memory of Zachary and on behalf of any family member who is lacking due diligence.

 

[kay74]

i think if you read what i said, it's apparent that my remark was not a conclusion that this case is off course. I said that if law enforcement (meaning any law enforcement agency and also this one) decides facts and blabbers a presumed manner of death to the media before an investigation is concluded - and i would add in particular any 'unofficial initial impressions' - they are off course. I don't believe the rank or role of the person matters. I do believe that regardless of rank or role, it lacks objectivity to share with the press your 'impressions' of a barely commenced investigation.

Amen.

 

[Skullz]

It wasn't a murder/suicide.
It was made to look like one and the cops fell for it and it was the easiest to explain and less work.
If it was a murder/suicide, it doesn't make sense that hs still had her coat and boots on. That would mean they both have had arrived home at the same time with different vehicles. Then both enter at the same time. If she got home first. Thats mean she would have just stood there and waited for him to get in.
.
She came in. Was popped and thrown to the side. Reason her rigor mortis got all screwed up when they staged the scene..The perps were waiting.
Whoever it was, wanted both of them dead.
If they wanted to just kill him, it could have been done anywhere else while following him and it would like a random act and made too like a robbery or carjacking.

 

[kay74]

I, too had a family member commit suicide at least I think he did. My 21 year old nephew was handling a gun and it went off and killed him, an accident according to his parents. The FBI investigated and concluded it was suicide. His friends thought the same. He went off antidepressants cold turkey and his friends said he seemed to be unbalanced after he did this. Then his sister became engaged to a guy who came back from Iraq and while she was at work, took her gun and killed himself.

 

[kay74]

It wasn't a murder/suicide.
It was made to look like one and the cops fell for it and it was the easiest to explain and less work.
If it was a murder/suicide, it doesn't make sense that hs still had her coat and boots on. That would mean they both have had arrived home at the same time with different vehicles. Then both enter at the same time. If she got home first. Thats mean she would have just stood there and waited for him to get in.
.
She came in. Was popped and thrown to the side. Reason her rigor mortis got all screwed up when they staged the scene..The perps were waiting.
Whoever it was, wanted both of them dead.
If they wanted to just kill him, it could have been done anywhere else while following him and it would like a random act and made too like a robbery or carjacking.

Did she have her boots on when she was found?! This is the first I heard of this. Then no way could this be suicide IMOO

 

[Wondergirl]

The housekeeper, who worked there during the day said when asked by LE that she and other staff ( maybe health care workers, not sure ) did not go to the pool area. They had no reason to. Maybe they had a special pool service looking after not only the pool, but the rest of the area, and the hot tub, as well. I cannot give a source for the housekeeper's explanation, but I remember reading it very early on in the Mainstream Media news. It was the realtor, going from room to room getting ready for the planned open house later that day, and who was also looking for the Shermans in order to talk about the open house or other business, who found them Fri. morning. IMO

Well that's actually very interesting.

The house staff did not normally go to the pool area.

Yet the pool area was was their final destination in death.

Very curious.

If, hypothetically he did actually kill her and then kill himself - which I'm furthest away on concluding, personally - I would think he would WANT the staff to be the ones to find them, as opposed to their children.