Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #4

[otto]

You have mentioned mentioned manner or death. Manner of death refers to suicide, homicide, etc.

How you interpret source information, is an opinion. However, you state that opinion as fact. It doesn't matter how many articles you quote, referring to that source information.

I have not mentioned manner of death, I have cited police sources who have stated that they are probing the deaths as a murder-suicide. This is not my opinion. I understand that some are unwilling to accept published information attributed to police sources even though that is a common source of information regarding police investigations internationally.

What surprises me is that information published about the location of the deaths, the wealth of the deceased, the health of the deceased prior to death, vacation plans of the deceased and so many other facts published in MSM are accepted as fact, yet information from police sources is rejected. I'm curious how one knows anything about these deaths when all of the information comes from the same place and police source information is deemed invalid.

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm still leaning to the side of the fence this was a double murder. In order for BS to mimic death he caused to his wife, move and reposition her body and then secure his arms behind his back with a coat and place a belt around his neck, aside from the obvious complexity involved, the dexterity and agility required of a 75 year old would seem quite remarkable. To me, the way in which they were discovered has a diabolical element to insinuate retaliation.

Noticing the context, the early comment from LE about not seeking a suspect may have originated from neighbours wondering if a random killer was on the loose and did LE propose an evacuation. From the same link:

".....Speaking late Friday night to “alleviate concerns in the neighbourhood,” a Toronto police detective said they were not seeking a suspect. A police spokesperson said Monday that no further information could be provided than what was contained in a brief public release Sunday, which did not contain any information about police seeking a suspect...."
https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/...be-what-happened-inside-50-old-colony-rd.html

This was the Sunday's Press Report, so far the one and only ever released:

Investigation into two suspicious deaths,
50 Old Colony Road,
Victims identified,
Causes of death released
Broadcast time: 18:55
Sunday, December 17, 2017

Case #: 2017-3201016

At 11:44 a.m., on Friday, December 15, 2017, police responded to a 9-1-1 call to 50 Old Colony Road.

Police officers attended the address and located a man and a woman inside the house. Both were deceased.

The deceased man has been identified as Barry Sherman, 75. The deceased woman has been identified as Honey Sherman, 70.

Post-mortem examinations were carried out yesterday and today. The cause of death for both deceased was ligature neck compression.

Toronto Police Service Homicide has taken the lead in this suspicious death investigation.

Anyone with information is asked to contact police at 416-808-7400, Crime Stoppers anonymously at 416-222-TIPS (8477), online at www.222tips.com, or text TOR and your message to CRIMES (274637).

Mark Pugash, Corporate Communications, for Detective Sergeant Susan Gomes, Homicide
http://torontopolice.on.ca/newsreleases/39905

 

[Tortoise]

I have not mentioned manner of death, I have cited police sources who have stated that they are probing the deaths as a murder-suicide. This is not my opinion. I understand that some are unwilling to accept published information attributed to police sources even though that is a common source of information regarding police investigations internationally.

What surprises me is that information published about the location of the deaths, the wealth of the deceased, the health of the deceased prior to death, vacation plans of the deceased and so many other facts published in MSM are accepted as fact, yet information from police sources is rejected. I'm curious how one knows anything about these deaths when all of the information comes from the same place and police source information is deemed invalid.

BBM They did not say that. They said possible murder suicide.

 

[otto]

Yes, we can agree on the first line of your post.

My point is, when dealing with COD, under the umbrella of "strangulation", neck compression and ligature neck compression are two different classifications.

Okay. Strangulation is defined as manual or ligature neck compression. The cause of death is ligature neck compression, so we know they were strangled with a ligature. We have also heard that belts are the ligatures used to cause the strangulation, but that is known only by those who trust what is published in MSM.

Definition

"Strangulation: neck compression due to something other than the victim's body weight, such as manual compression or ligature tightened by assailant; usually homicidal"

Forensic Pathology: Asphyxia
http://www.pathologyoutlines.com/topic/forensicsasphyxia.html

 

[MistyWaters]

I have not mentioned manner of death, I have cited police sources who have stated that they are probing the deaths as a murder-suicide. This is not my opinion. I understand that some are unwilling to accept published information attributed to police sources even though that is a common source of information regarding police investigations internationally.

What surprises me is that information published about the location of the deaths, the wealth of the deceased, the health of the deceased prior to death, vacation plans of the deceased and so many other facts published in MSM are accepted as fact, yet information from police sources is rejected. I'm curious how one knows anything about these deaths when all of the information comes from the same place and police source information is deemed invalid.

You'll find several MSM reports that state police sources said "the deaths are being investigated as a possible murder-suicide. That's a departure in context from a flat out statement that "the deaths are being investigated as a murder-suicide".

If a secondary crime scene was discovered, on the surface it's easy to see why it might've have appeared as a possible murder-suicide prior to the cause of deaths being determined. Did the autopsy results of "ligature neck compression" for both change the direction of the possibilities? Possibly so, but we don't know because they haven't said.

 

[otto]

BBM They did not say that. They said possible murder suicide.

Yes. Murder-suicide is the working theory in the investigation of the deaths. Police have not stated that they are probing the possibility of a double murder. It has been suggested numerous times that police have not stated that they are looking at murder-suicide, but indeed police sources have made this statement.

"But police sources confirm to the Star that police are now probing the possibility that they were a murder-suicide."

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...gating-death-of-billionaire-and-his-wife.html

I'm curious why there is such an earnest desire to exclude what we know about their deaths. For example, we know that they died by ligature neck compression, yet for some reason we should consider manual neck compression. We know that the layman's term for ligature neck compression is strangulation, yet we should disbelieve this. We know the police working theory, yet we should doubt it. We know that they were going on vacation to Florida, and we should believe this.

 

[Grey-St]

I have not mentioned manner of death, I have cited police sources who have stated that they are probing the deaths as a murder-suicide. This is not my opinion. I understand that some are unwilling to accept published information attributed to police sources even though that is a common source of information regarding police investigations internationally.

What surprises me is that information published about the location of the deaths, the wealth of the deceased, the health of the deceased prior to death, vacation plans of the deceased and so many other facts published in MSM are accepted as fact, yet information from police sources is rejected. I'm curious how one knows anything about these deaths when all of the information comes from the same place and police source information is deemed invalid.

Yes you have cited source information, but you opinion is that it means LE are only probing this as a murder-suicide.

As I've stated previously, no one here has deemed source information as invalid. That's why we explore other source information provided as well. It is useful to us, while always being cognizant that it hasn't been stated as fact by LE.

What is different here, is that this source failed to mention the other MOD's likely being explored in a thorough investigation. And as we have a vast amount of common sense and knowledge here on WS, we take that quote with a grain of salt, and know that LE is likely exploring all options.

 

[ldlager]

I have not mentioned manner of death, I have cited police sources who have stated that they are probing the deaths as a murder-suicide. This is not my opinion. I understand that some are unwilling to accept published information attributed to police sources even though that is a common source of information regarding police investigations internationally.

What surprises me is that information published about the location of the deaths, the wealth of the deceased, the health of the deceased prior to death, vacation plans of the deceased and so many other facts published in MSM are accepted as fact, yet information from police sources is rejected. I'm curious how one knows anything about these deaths when all of the information comes from the same place and police source information is deemed invalid.

spot on Otto! Using the logic that all sources are to be questioned, any info that does not come directly from HS is BS themselves is to be questioned!!

 

[otto]

Yes you have cited source information, but you opinion is that it means LE are only probing this as a murder-suicide.

As I've stated previously, no one here has deemed source information as invalid. That's why we explore other source information provided as well. It is useful to us, while always being cognizant that it hasn't been stated as fact by LE.

What is different here, is that this source failed to mention the other MOD's likely being explored in a thorough investigation. And as we have a vast amount of common sense and knowledge here on WS, we take that quote with a grain of salt, and know that LE is likely exploring all options.

There was another discussion on this forum about a woman who was found in a drainage ditch with a bag on her head. That morning, she left for work like any other day. At the last minute she cancelled the car pool because she'd forgotten her work keys at home. Blood was found on the floor of the passenger seat in her car. Everything about her death was staged to look like an abduction and murder. Police sources provided information from the beginning stating that the public was not at risk. It was eventually officially deemed a suicide.

All the sleuthing, discussion and speculative comments on this forum were interesting, but they did not change the outcome. That is, police did the work, released information to reassure the public, and ultimately confirmed their working theory of suicide even though that manner of death not obvious to those who discussed the case.

 

[JDG]

spot on Otto! Using the logic that all sources are to be questioned, any info that does not come directly from HS is BS themselves is to be questioned!!

Pardon?? Please decipher from 'any info......' sorry, I didn't understand what you're trying to say. IMO

 

[Grey-St]

Yes. Murder-suicide is the working theory in the investigation of the deaths. Police have not stated that they are probing the possibility of a double murder. It has been suggested numerous times that police have not stated that they are looking at murder-suicide, but indeed police sources have made this statement.

"But police sources confirm to the Star that police are now probing the possibility that they were a murder-suicide."

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...gating-death-of-billionaire-and-his-wife.html

I'm curious why there is such an earnest desire to exclude what we know about their deaths. For example, we know that they died by ligature neck compression, yet for some reason we should consider manual neck compression. We know that the layman's term for ligature neck compression is strangulation, yet we should disbelieve this. We know the police working theory, yet we should doubt it. We know that they were going on vacation to Florida, and we should believe this.

Who has stated that we should consider manual neck compression? We know what the COD classification is, and have never wavered on that. And yes, ligature neck compression is a form of strangulation, also not being disputed.
<modsnip>.

 

[MistyWaters]

The link below worthwhile watching. The bungling of the TPS is documented within and there is also input from Joe Warmington from the Toronto Sun, both of whom are in the spotlight in the Sherman case. Those of us on WS who followed the Tim Bosma and Laura Babcock murder cases are still reeling from the sick and convoluted details of their murders and await a third trial in 2018 connected to one of their murderers regarding his own father. My point being, I am not surprised that the TPS is minding their Ps&Qs on the Sherman case given how badly they dropped the ball for Laura, and subsequently Tim.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSQnVSyRFOg

I'm continually reminded of the death of Wayne Millard being originally classified as a suicide as well and considering the upcoming trial, it must be on the minds of TPS.

Unless there's very obvious indications of murder, there's obvious motivation to lean toward findings of suicide as opposed to instigating the high costs involved in murder investigations. Case closed, no further investigation required, freeing up valuable policing resources. I've always wondered how many professional hits are considered suicides. It's not a perfect world and I'm not blaming LE but as a society we've come to automatically accept as indisputable fact that suicides occur even though nobody else ever suspected that was going on in the mind of the deceased person. That family and friends just don't want to accept that fact, yada, yada... I can understand why it must be very difficult for those who have reason to dispute a suicide ruling.

 

[Tortoise]

Yes. Murder-suicide is the working theory in the investigation of the deaths. Police have not stated that they are probing the possibility of a double murder. It has been suggested numerous times that police have not stated that they are looking at murder-suicide, but indeed police sources have made this statement.

"But police sources confirm to the Star that police are now probing the possibility that they were a murder-suicide."

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...gating-death-of-billionaire-and-his-wife.html

I'm curious why there is such an earnest desire to exclude what we know about their deaths. For example, we know that they died by ligature neck compression, yet for some reason we should consider manual neck compression. We know that the layman's term for ligature neck compression is strangulation, yet we should disbelieve this. We know the police working theory, yet we should doubt it. We know that they were going on vacation to Florida, and we should believe this.

No it isn't the working theory.

Possibility does not mean it is the only theory. It means uncertainty. That source spoke before the autopsies even. Their necks would have needed to be dissected (if that is the right word) to see what bones were broken if any, what other injuries were present if any, etc.

Hanging looks like suicide at first appearance, and when statistics are taken into account the odds of it being a double suicide are negligible if not nil. Hence murder suicide is a stronger possibility than double suicide. The fact the source didn't say police are investigating this as a possible murder suicide or a possible double murder means only that it was one possibility. Murder by hanging is rare so it's understandable they didn't say the scene looks like murder, but if a killer aimed to make it look like suicides the chances of it being immediately apparent that it was murder are reduced.

If it had been said last week then that would make me think differently, but they have not given out any statements since confirming only the cause of death.
No one is excluding knowledge by remaining open minded. <modsnip>

 

[Grey-St]

spot on Otto! Using the logic that all sources are to be questioned, any info that does not come directly from HS is BS themselves is to be questioned!!

I don't see how anyone here has made a comment to support this interpretation? All information provided by sources or the media shouldn't be questioned in a way that we decipher it to be false. Just that we should root our conversations and analysis of the information in common sense. In my opinion, it's common sense to speculate that in a thorough investigation, all MOD's will be investigated, a notion backed up by other detectives or retired detectives also quoted in MSM, whether or not a direct statement from LE has been issued on the topic.

 

[otto]

Pardon?? Please decipher from 'any info......' sorry, I didn't understand what you're trying to say. IMO

Perhaps I can help clarify. We have read in the news that the couple were going on vacation to Florida and that they were leaving Toronto on different days. This information is not attributed to police sources. In the same news articles, police sources have been cited in relation to facts of the case.

No one doubts that the couple were going on vacation, but some doubt the police working theory. How does one decide which facts published in MSM should be believed and which should be doubted? Either the news publications are accurate or inaccurate, so I'm curious why anyone who doubts police sources believes that the couple were going on vacation.

 

[scadagirl28]

LE may have been looking at all possibilities. However if the family was fine with what the final outcome was going to be they wouldn't have hired their own team. I am thinking especially the pathologist.

 

[noel leon]

I am wondering if anybody has found any other cases of this technique of coat or clothing pulled down to limit arm movement in any known cases of ligature suicide?

 

[dotr]

Dare i distract with a previously much maligned Frank magazine link?
An update of sorts to the first article, this one from January 2018.
Fwiw.
http://frankmag.ca/2018/01/26787/

 

[ldlager]

Pardon?? Please decipher from 'any info......' sorry, I didn't understand what you're trying to say. IMO

For example- it was reported in MSM that HS had emailed a friend or family member that she and BS would be in Florida over the Holidays and that she was looking forward to getting together. This info came to MSM from a "source" - to my knowledge we don't know who provided it, or whether the info is legitimate, or if it's fiction. But MSM reported it, and I suspect most everyone on the board accepts it as fact. There are so many examples of the same thing- MSM reporting info obtained from "sources" that we have accepted as fact. But it's only "police sources" that we are to question? It seems to me that if we are going to doubt/question all sources, then the only info we can truly rely on is info that we get directly from BS or HS.

 

[otto]

I am wondering if anybody has found any other cases of this technique of coat or clothing pulled down to limit arm movement in any known cases of ligature suicide?

I've always wondered if both deceased had their jackets pulled down over their arms, or just the wife. We have learned that the wife may have been killed in another part of the house and moved to the pool area. She could have been dragged there using the belt that was used for strangulation, and dragging her by the neck could cause her jacket to roll down over her arms.