Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #4

[JayFriend]

Just curious. After watching commercials on TV warning the public that it is illegal and a criminal offence to drive under the influence of marijuana, does this mean that those who have a prescription and take it for medical purposes can’t drive? I have read several articles on driving under the influence of marijuana and none of them addressed this.

Detecting, measuring and categorizing marijuana impairment as it pertains to operating a motor vehicle.is in its infancy Even the BAC used for impaired driving is questionable because not all people are affected the same. The range of impairment from marijuana use is much wider, so a blood test could be meaningless. But we all know that driving while impaired by any prescription drug is not recommended and illegal. They'll probably come up with a motor skills and reaction time test or something.

 

[Grey-St]

Different police forces and pathologists describe the same events differently. It's probably more helpful to look at Ontario cases including the recent death of Tess Richey:

http://toronto.citynews.ca/2017/12/04/police-handling-of-tess-richey-case-to-be-investigated-pugash/

I really don't think it's significant that they didn't use the term asphyxiation.

The biggest question IMO is whether it's possible to tell if Barry Sherman died from hanging or if he could have died from some other type of neck compression.

Right, well I think then what is significant for me about the COD classification is that ligature neck compression can mean more than one thing. Some folks felt that the classification meant only one thing, murder-suicide caused by hanging.

 

[liz b.]

Still thinking this was a robbery/burglary which escalated, spun out of control...

 

[Grey-St]

PIs have not been inside the home nor on the property. TPS is holding the scene and nothing will be known until after TPS makes a statement or hands the property over to the family. Everything else is rumour. It cannot be substantiated folks.

I'm with you, but I just don't think Kevin Donovan would risk sounding like a fool reporting on this information, and with such confidence, if he didn't have reason to believe it was the truth. He's an incredibly reputable investigative journalist, so I'll say I won't be surprised if it is substantiated.

I don't know who the sources are that saw the crime scene (or not), so we'll wait and see on that. But Dr. David Chiasson is a practicing pathologist, and examined the bodies. Greenspan said what he said, but he also didn't say the information was false was false.

 

[Veeduck]

Of those who believe the Sherman case is a double homicide, most people (including me) have assumed that the murders must've had something to do with Barry's business, and/or the billions he made from it. But if this case is ever solved, I'll bet dollars to donuts that the Shermans' immense wealth and how it was acquired will be incidental, or even unrelated, to whatever led to their deaths. JMO.

 

[matou]

Joe Warmington reported most of this info already and he was shot down. Why is it believable now?

 

[pamelado2]

Joe Warmington reported most of this info already and he was shot down. Why is it believable now?

Do you happen to have a link? I remember Frank mag (?) reporting similar things, but Toronto Sun? Was it recently?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[Hazel]

TPS apparently had reason to think that Honey's death preceded Barry's. There is so much about the death scene that was seemingly unnecessary if the intent was simply to murder the couple. I still think the killer(s) left their victims in the pool room to delay discovery, but why leave them in a sitting position? I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the killer(s) were female, and may have lacked the upper body strength to lift their victims higher for a 'full' hanging.

I read somewhere that the pool railing is about 36" high (91 cm).

I imagine that for "full hanging" the bodies would need to be pushed into the pool, in which case their bodies would be half-submersed in water.

source for image: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5153507/bobby-sherman-wife-honey-dead-toronto-canada-side-by-side/

 

[Tricia]

Please do not personally respond to another poster if you feel they are being rude to you. You must alert. If you do not alert and instead respond directly that can earn you a time out as well.

Always alert and scroll by. Do not engage in any back and forth.

Thanks,
Tricia

 

[AddyFinch]

Am I missing something? Why are we only getting “leaks” about HS?

 

[Hazel]

By the same logic, its entirely possible that the killer(s) were young and/or short in stature. Has anyone considered the possibility that neighborhood juvenile delinquents might have been looking for a thrill kill? The Shermans were elderly and lived in a house without security cameras. They were 'soft targets,' and yet Honey appears to have put up a fight against her assailant(s). That suggests the killer(s) weren't so big and strong (or professional), IMO. If the deed was done by juvie neighbors whose family were friends of the Shermans, that could also explain how the killer(s) may have been familiar with their house, and possibly known that household staff were instructed not to enter the pool room.

This is the second time I've seen posted here on WS that the "household staff were instructed not to enter the pool room."

Do we know if that a fact or just speculation?
I must admit I haven't read all posts on all 4 threads, so I must have missed when that was discussed here.

 

[Tortoise]

Well, neither could an already dead person :thinking:.

In the process of lifting them to hang them they wouldn't be dead already.

 

[Veeduck]

I read somewhere that the pool railing is about 36" high (91 cm).

I imagine that for "full hanging" the bodies would need to be pushed into the pool, in which case their bodies would be half-submersed in water.

Like you, I remember reading that the railing is 3' high, according to several articles. That must be why the writer of Frank's "Part Deux" article suggested exactly what you've noted; s/he thought the bodies had been pushed into the pool and half-submersed. But nearly all other articles, including Donovan's, have said the bodies were on the pavement in a sitting or semi-sitting position. Why hang the victims if, according to Donovan, they were already dead? And why only a partial hanging?

Although only the 3' railing is shown in the pool photo, there are doubtless other places (whether in the pool room or elsewhere) that the bodies could have been placed in a 'full' hang. For example, Andreww earlier pointed out that the hangings could presumably have occurred in a closet. But for reasons we don't understand, the strangled victims were tied to the pool railing, as though they were hung there (according to Donovan).

In another case years ago, an FBI profiler (either Douglas or Ressler) described how a murder victim had been hung from a door knob, and the profiler correctly predicted that the killer was female, because she couldn't lift the victim to a 'full hang.' In the Sherman case, I posit that because the victims were left sitting, as though in a 'partial hang' position, the killer(s) might be either adult female or juvenile. Why the killer(s) wanted to create an appearance of hangings is anybody's guess.

 

[Veeduck]

This is the second time I've seen posted here on WS that the "household staff were instructed not to enter the pool room."

Do we know if that a fact or just speculation?
I must admit I haven't read all posts on all 4 threads, so I must have missed when that was discussed here.

In one of the earliest articles on this case, it was reported that a staff member was in the house when the police first arrived, and that s/he told LE that staff had been instructed not to service the pool room. This was given as an explanation for why the victims weren't discovered until that Friday. I don't recall seeing the staff member's explanation reported in any other articles since then, so perhaps you're right to question its validity.

 

[Veeduck]

Am I missing something? Why are we only getting “leaks” about HS?

Good question. Others have wondered why only Honey's cars were towed away. To which I'd add:

If Donovan's article is correct in stating that there was no rigor mortis in either victim when police first examined them, then what made LE think that Honey's death occurred before Barry's? The victims weren't found until approximately 30-36 hours had elapsed, so it would've been difficult to determine relative times of death by comparing body temperatures, though that is probably the likeliest explanation. JMO, since I've never studied forensics.

 

[Tortoise]

It's all so strange that no one raised the alarm for all that time. I wonder if their phones were with them and no one could hear them ringing from the house, if there were staff in the house. It's hard to believe that no one had tried to contact them. I think even if I had been told not to service the pool area I might start to look for them there in case one of them had fallen or had a heart attack and needed help, with the cars being outside and them not having said they would be away, not coming to the kitchen for food or drink, not picking up their mail, and not being anywhere else in the home. Staff would probably be best placed to immediately know what was out of character. I think it's odd that they didn't look, if they were there on Thursday and/or Friday morning, even if it was outside their normal range of duties to go there. I might even have gone to a neighbour to ask if they had seen them and allow the neighbour to come in and look.

 

[Tortoise]

Good question. Others have wondered why only Honey's cars were towed away. To which I'd add:

If Donovan's article is correct in stating that there was no rigor mortis in either victim when police first examined them, then what made LE think that Honey's death occurred before Barry's? The victims weren't found until approximately 36-48 hours had elapsed, so its unlikely that police could've made that determination by comparing body temperatures.

Perhaps it was part and parcel of considering if Barry may have killed Honey and then committed suicide, making an early hunch that it was unlikely to be a double suicide.

 

[deugirtni]

In the beginning, I felt it was 'bad timing', as far as appearances go, in regard to the 'orphans' (with their case having been dismissed only 3 months before the deaths). I suspected that because of that history and the timing, the 'orphans' may be thoroughly investigated by LE, but I never really gave any credence to the theory that they could/would be involved in this. I am now starting to have second thoughts. It is obvious from news stories that at least KW had very strong feelings about his entitlement, and it seems that at least a couple of the orphans may have had the opportunity in their lifetimes to get to know some seedier characters. To add fuel to the fire, can you imagine if the orphans had been ordered to pay BS's costs in their lawsuit? I wonder if the judge had made a ruling yet, on the amount the 'orphans' would have to pay (submissions were due on October 16, 2017, only 2 months before the deaths)?
From LexiinToronto's post above:

BBM. From CanLII https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/do...&resultIndex=2The option agreement was limited, qualified, contingent and conditional. The claimed interest in Apotex was wishful thinking, and beyond fanciful. Nothing can now change these findings of fact.
Costs
[54] The defendants are presumptively entitled to costs. If the parties are unable to agree upon the issue of costs, the defendants are to provide submissions consisting of no more than two typed double-spaced pages along with a bill of costs, any offers, and appropriate case law to my attention to the Judges’ Administration office, Room 170, 361 University Avenue, on or before September 29, 2017. The plaintiffs are to provide their submissions subject to the same directions on or before October 16, 2017. There are to be no reply submissions.

Is it possible that BS's Will could have included amounts left to 'the orphans'?

 

[Tortoise]

In the beginning, I felt it was 'bad timing', as far as appearances go, in regard to the 'orphans' (with their case having been dismissed only 3 months before the deaths). I suspected that because of that history and the timing, the 'orphans' may be thoroughly investigated by LE, but I never really gave any credence to the theory that they could/would be involved in this. I am now starting to have second thoughts. It is obvious from news stories that at least KW had very strong feelings about his entitlement, and it seems that at least a couple of the orphans may have had the opportunity in their lifetimes to get to know some seedier characters. To add fuel to the fire, can you imagine if the orphans had been ordered to pay BS's costs in their lawsuit? I wonder if the judge had made a ruling yet, on the amount the 'orphans' would have to pay (submissions were due on October 16, 2017, only 2 months before the deaths)?
From LexiinToronto's post above:





Is it possible that BS's Will could have included amounts left to 'the orphans'?

Would the defendants' deaths mean that costs wouldn't be pursued by their executors? IDK.

 

[Veeduck]

Perhaps it was part and parcel of considering if Barry may have killed Honey and then committed suicide, making an early hunch that it was unlikely to be a double suicide.

Given the injuries that Honey sustained prior to death, (according to Donovan's and earlier articles), the first impression may well have been murder-suicide, though its rightly emphasized by many here that TPS has only described the deaths as 'suspicious.' In the audio link I posted of Pierson's radio interview, Donovan seems to confirm that MSM, rather than police, made the mistake of assuming murder-suicide.