Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #7

[JDG]

Why set up the lockbox, if the side door was always kept unlocked? *wink*
:dance:
One more reason that suggests the side door was not unlocked, but JMHO.

If its been unlocked for family/friends/neighbours for decades, you wouldn't want the whole world to know.
Switch to a lock box to look more professional and to make sure all the lookie loos don't find out and come back to rob you. Once its sold, go back to regular habits. JMHO

I believe it because, as Ive said, we have lived that way for decades and so have our neighbours.....not far from Old Colony Road.

You would have been considered 'odd' if you didn't leave a door open for convenience.

I have a very well to do relative in an expensive area of California and they have never locked the house during the day. Doors are shut but not locked and you can always enter via the garage. Its a very upscale and safe area in southern OC. Friends and relatives come and go all the time. <shrug>

 

[Hazel]

&#8220;In Chiasson&#8217;s examination, it was determined that they were likely not strangled with the belts. Instead, they were strangled with some other type of ligature, and the belts were then put around their necks.&#8221;
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...d-from-murder-suicide-to-double-homicide.html

If this is correct, it proves both victims were likely restrained at the time they were strangled. The bindings on the wrists removed when the bodies were staged in a sitting position bound to the pool railing by the belts. During the autopsy procedure it can be determined if the ligature was conducive to the width of the belts.

For those who still question if this was a murder-suicide, why would BS bind the wrists of his wife (and his own) if he wanted both their deaths to appear to be a double suicide? If that was the case, it&#8217;d seem to me it was intended to appear to be perceived as a double murder. So what&#8217;s the point of staging a suicide?

The theory is he wanted both their deaths to appear to be double murder, not double suicide.

From the description of how Honey was found, face bloodied, cuts on nose and lips, and sitting on a pool of her own blood, after having laid face down on that pool of blood for quite some time, it's impossible to believe double suicide.

Keep in mind they were found wearing their outdoor winter coats. We are talking Canadian winter coats, which are bulky, and most have an attached hood, and many of the women's coats have fur around the neck area.

I can't figure out how the alleged perp(s) would have tied their wrists under the winter coats sleeves.

Strangled them with some type of ligature other than belts.

Then remove those ligatures once they were dead.

Then remove BS belt from his pants, and get another belt (source unknown), and put those belts around their necks.

Then tie them in a semi-seated position from the pool railing.

Then remove the hand ties, and pull the coats down their arms.

This sounds just crazy, and so complicated. If this is the case, then there should be mounds of forensic evidence all over the place. JMHO

 

[dotr]

https://player.fm/series/on-point-w...on-into-the-deaths-of-barry-and-honey-sherman

3 hours ago 9:36

Kevin Donovan - Investigative Reporter, Toronto Star joins ON Point to discuss his ongoing investigation and how the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman went from murder-suicide to double murder.

 

[MistyWaters]

The theory is he wanted both their deaths to appear to be double murder, not double suicide.

From the description of how Honey was found, face bloodied, cuts on nose and lips, and sitting on a pool of her own blood, after having laid face down on that pool of blood for quite some time, it's impossible to believe double suicide.

Keep in mind they were found wearing their outdoor winter coats. We are talking Canadian winter coats, which are bulky, and most have an attached hood, and many of the women's coats have fur around the neck area.

I can't figure out how the alleged perp(s) would have tied their wrists under the winter coats sleeves.

Strangled them with some type of ligature other than belts.

Then remove those ligatures once they were dead.

Then remove BS belt from his pants, and get another belt (source unknown), and put those belts around their necks.

Then tie them in a semi-seated position from the pool railing.

Then remove the hand ties, and pull the coats down their arms.

This sounds just crazy, and so complicated. If this is the case, then there should be mounds of forensic evidence all over the place. JMHO

That&#8217;s what I don&#8217;t understand. If the theory is a murder-suicide, why would either or both have marks to indicate their wrists had been bound, if indeed that was determined by both autopsies?

<modsnip> IMO it&#8217;s far more logical that a third party committed the murder, then staged the suicide scene using coats and belts in an attempt to mask the crime. It almost was successful....

 

[casesensitive]

From what we've read on the Toronto Star, that "interview" took place AFTER someone from the PI's team "leaked unauthorized" information to the press.

The TPS read about the hired PI's conclusions at the same time as we did, from the news article!!!

Where did you read Dr. Chiasson conducted 2 autopsies? It was my understanding he conducted the second autopsy just in time for the funeral, followed by cremation, but I could be wrong.

After the PI leak on Jan.19, LE was asked if they had received Dr. Chiasson's autopsy reports and they declined to answer. We don't know if they requested his reports and a chance to interview him and were denied, or if they never bothered asking. I don't know the usual protocol, or if LE and the PI team were even communicating. But we now know that everyone was aware of the wrist wounds.

Two autopsies=two bodies. One autopsy each.

 

[JDG]

Re deleting cookies which does delete passwords.

Here are some ways to keep passwords, Googling can give other ways.

https://www.techwalla.com/articles/...ies-temp-files-without-losing-saved-passwords

O/T

Thank you for this information. After reading the other replies about deleting cookies, thank you to everyone who replied, I googled how to do it from Safari. It was easy but it did delete all passwords. yikes!

Still can't get into a number of sites as I don't have the passwords. So secure, the owner doesn't have them.:shame:

 

[JDG]

How/when/who contacted Gottlieb? Logically, Gottlieb's assistance called Gottlieb. But the news article does not state such.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...d-from-murder-suicide-to-double-homicide.html

The discovery was made shortly after 11 a.m. Friday. Gottlieb’s assistant called up to the housekeeper, telling her what she had seen. Then Gottlieb made a phone call, seeking direction on what to do. The Star could not determine who she called.
Meanwhile, the housekeeper called 911. Toronto Police 911 system records a call coming in at 11:43 a.m. Police were en route by 11:44 a.m.

Gottlieb was not just their Realtor, she was a personal friend of HS. She would have been called for that reason as well. Bet her rolodex was full of all the high level politicos as well as all family members/close friends. She could make one call/one text to everyone in the blink of an eye.

Way upthread, someone wanted to know how the Health Minister could know about it so quickly, theres your answer. They knew shortly after the police knew. IMO

 

[Jasper52]

O/T

Thank you for this information. After reading the other replies about deleting cookies, thank you to everyone who replied, I googled how to do it from Safari. It was easy but it did delete all passwords. yikes!

Still can't get into a number of sites as I don't have the passwords. So secure, the owner doesn't have them.:shame:

To recover/reset your passwords for sites you can't access, there is usually a link, below the login, that says 'forgot password?'. Click on that and you should get an email from them with a link to reset your password. HTH.

If you go this route, write your passwords down or use a password manager!

 

[Gardenista]

O/T

Thank you for this information. After reading the other replies about deleting cookies, thank you to everyone who replied, I googled how to do it from Safari. It was easy but it did delete all passwords. yikes!

Still can't get into a number of sites as I don't have the passwords. So secure, the owner doesn't have them.:shame:

To see your stored passwords, click on the word Safari in the upper left hand corner of your browser (if you are on desktop) and then go to Preferences/Passwords. Enter your computer password when prompted and you will find all of your PWs there--just click on the website and they will be revealed.

Additionally, you can try going to a website where you need to login and click in the User Name box and Safari should provide an autofill of your user name for you to click on which will then autofill your PW.

 

[Tighthead]

Doesn't matter. Her first priority would be to keep this horror from a prospective buyer,

1. When your clients are dead you can no longer get instructions. You couldn’t negotiate a sale if you tried prior to the appointment of executors.

2. I expect they have to disclose the murder to potential buyers anyway.

3. They are billionaires, it’s making the news.

 

[ldlager]

From what we've read on the Toronto Star, that "interview" took place AFTER someone from the PI's team "leaked unauthorized" information to the press.

The TPS read about the hired PI's conclusions at the same time as we did, from the news article!!!

Where did you read Dr. Chiasson conducted 2 autopsies? It was my understanding he conducted the second autopsy just in time for the funeral, followed by cremation, but I could be wrong.

Hi Hazel. 2 autopsies- 1) BS; 2) HS

 

[ldlager]

Gottlieb was not just their Realtor, she was a personal friend of HS. She would have been called for that reason as well. Bet her rolodex was full of all the high level politicos as well as all family members/close friends. She could make one call/one text to everyone in the blink of an eye.

Way upthread, someone wanted to know how the Health Minister could know about it so quickly, theres your answer. They knew shortly after the police knew. IMO

Some friend. Call the frickin' police!!

 

[ldlager]

That’s what I don’t understand. If the theory is a murder-suicide, why would either or both have marks to indicate their wrists had been bound, if indeed that was determined by both autopsies?

<modsnip> IMO it’s far more logical that a third party committed the murder, then staged the suicide scene using coats and belts in an attempt to mask the crime. It almost was successful....

The theory is BS wanted to make it look like a double murder. So he in theory bound and killed her by strangulation; hung her with a belt; and then subsequently made self inflicted binding marks on his wrists before cutting off the binding; hiding or disposing them; and then hanging himself from a belt. It would look like they were both bound, and then hung/murdered with the belts.

The problem is, if the reporting is to be believed, the ligature marks left on their necks came from something other than the belts. So Barry couldn't have strangled himself, and then hung himself from the belt. However, I guess it IS possible that he could have wrapped a ligature around his neck to leave marks; disposed of the ligature; and then hung himself from the belt. The marks on his neck from the ligature could throw off LE.
Not sure if a ME can determine whether a ligature or a belt actually was the CAUSE of death, or just that they are both present on the body.

I don't necessarily believe the above happened, but just presenting the scenario as a possibility.

 

[matou]

Wouldn't marks from rope versus ties appear different on the skin? One would leave straighter cut like marks on the skin versus scratch abrasions.

 

[casesensitive]

Dr. David Chiasson who performed the second autopsies, is a former Chief Forensic Pathologist for the province of Ontario. The first autopsies of BS and HS were not performed by the current Chief Forensic Pathologist, they were performed by Dr. Michael Pickup, a 2010 graduate, and one of several forensic pathologists on staff.

Before anyone discards Dr. Chiasson's findings merely because he was hired by the family, or is also involved in the grand conspiracy to cover up a murder/suicide, Det. Sgt. Susan Gomes, the lead detective, made significant points at the news conference announcing it was a double murder investigation.

-Toronto Police partnered with the Ontario Forensic Pathology Unit
-including "many areas of discipline within the Centre of Forensic Sciences
-the original autopsy reports determined cause of death (ligature neck compression) but did not determine "manner" of death. ( double suicide, homicide-suicide or double homicide)
-the manner has been determined to be double homicide
(in other words, they did further reviews of the autopsies)

-they obtained 2000 hours of video surveillance (from businesses and homes) and "we certainly believe we have captured images of people in the neighbourhood".

-they have evidence they feel determines that not only was it a double homicide, but that the Shermans were "targeted".

-other police forces and agencies have assisted on the case

We don't know the extent of the evidence they used to make the targeted-double-murder call, but I think it is convincing, and surely more believable than casting law enforcement officers, other police agencies, medical professionals, forensic agencies and politicians from the Prime Minister to the Toronto Mayor as co-conspirators. MOO

http://www.macleans.ca/society/toro...y-and-honey-sherman-investigation-live-video/


https://www.cp24.com/news/barry-hon...d-victims-of-double-homicide-police-1.3776789

 

[JDG]

The theory is BS wanted to make it look like a double murder. So he in theory bound and killed her by strangulation; hung her with a belt; and then subsequently made self inflicted binding marks on his wrists before cutting off the binding; hiding or disposing them; and then hanging himself from a belt. It would look like they were both bound, and then hung/murdered with the belts.

The problem is, if the reporting is to be believed, the ligature marks left on their necks came from something other than the belts. So Barry couldn't have strangled himself, and then hung himself from the belt. However, I guess it IS possible that he could have wrapped a ligature around his neck to leave marks; disposed of the ligature; and then hung himself from the belt. The marks on his neck from the ligature could throw off LE.
Not sure if a ME can determine whether a ligature or a belt actually was the CAUSE of death, or just that they are both present on the body.

I don't necessarily believe the above happened, but just presenting the scenario as a possibility.

A pathologist would definitely know how the person died and have a darned good idea of what was used.
A garret from twine would be much different from using a belt. Wound vs no wound.
If you have strangled yourself, you certainly cannot then hang yourself from a railing.

 

[JDG]

Some friend. Call the frickin' police!!

She wasn't the one who found them, she was in Florida.

 

[Hazel]

Gottlieb was not just their Realtor, she was a personal friend of HS. She would have been called for that reason as well. Bet her rolodex was full of all the high level politicos as well as all family members/close friends. She could make one call/one text to everyone in the blink of an eye.

Way upthread, someone wanted to know how the Health Minister could know about it so quickly, theres your answer. They knew shortly after the police knew. IMO

It was a horrific day for the couple&#8217;s grown children, who apparently heard about the death of their parents through media and social media rather than police.

hone: hone: hone: hone: hone: snowballing

There you go! Now the children have their answer as to how the news spread so fast, and didn't give LE any chance to be the first ones to contact them.
I can just image phone calls, texts, e-mails galore during those 40 minutes and more afterwards.

By the time the paramedics and LE got there, it's possible that acquaintances, friends and family had already been informed that something happened at that address.

Neighbours would have known the identities of the couple, and that could be how the news people found out, or maybe the news people simply did a Google search of the address.

 

[Hazel]

O/T

Thank you for this information. After reading the other replies about deleting cookies, thank you to everyone who replied, I googled how to do it from Safari. It was easy but it did delete all passwords. yikes!

Still can't get into a number of sites as I don't have the passwords. So secure, the owner doesn't have them.:shame:

JDG, most sites have a feature to retrieve your "forgotten/lost password." They will send an e-mail, either with a temporary password, or a link so you can reset your password.
Make sure to write down the new password.

 

[JDG]

JDG, most sites have a feature to retrieve your "forgotten/lost password." They will send an e-mail, either with a temporary password, or a link so you can reset your password.
Make sure to write down the new password.

Thanks, I have tried that with Ebay but they don't send the email. I am about to try the phone call selection.
Seems there is a password protection built into the 'Preferences', shall be making use of it in future.