Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #7

[ldlager]

She wasn't the one who found them, she was in Florida.

When she was called by her assistant, judging from the timing she very likely didnt advise the assistant to immediately call the police. Nor did she call the police herself, which she could have done, from Florida. There is a reason for the delay. I am sure LE is curious as well.

 

[ldlager]

A pathologist would definitely know how the person died and have a darned good idea of what was used.
A garret from twine would be much different from using a belt. Wound vs no wound.
If you have strangled yourself, you certainly cannot then hang yourself from a railing.

Thanks, what I was asking is, is the science exact enough to be able to determine, in a case where a body has markings from both a rope and a belt around the neck, which of those 2 (the rope or the belt) caused the actual death?

 

[Satchie]

A pathologist would definitely know how the person died and have a darned good idea of what was used.
A garret from twine would be much different from using a belt. Wound vs no wound.
If you have strangled yourself, you certainly cannot then hang yourself from a railing.

I see two possibilities: first, there was some ambiguity in BS's autopsy, some way that suicide couldn't be ruled out entirely, and police needed to investigate the circumstances to rule it out.

Or, it was clear from the first autopsy that it was murder elaborately staged as suicide, but to allow a more covert homicide investigation, the manner of death wasn't initially released, it was only released when the family was about to take it public.

It's quite interesting that the skin from the wrists of both victims had been removed to preserve as evidence. That indicates the police pathologist had recognized it as significant.

 

[JDG]

I see two possibilities: first, there was some ambiguity in BS's autopsy, some way that suicide couldn't be ruled out entirely, and police needed to investigate the circumstances to rule it out.

Or, it was clear from the first autopsy that it was murder elaborately staged as suicide, but to allow a more covert homicide investigation, the manner of death wasn't initially released, it was only released when the family was about to take it public.

It's quite interesting that the skin from the wrists of both victims had been removed to preserve as evidence. That indicates the police pathologist had recognized it as significant.

At autopsies, they have two jars of formaldehyde, one for samples from the left side and other for samples from the right side.

Any 'other necessary samples' are put into other jars and its all documented via audio (and possibly video) tape.

They sample every organ, anything that is suspicious and any disease processes they find.

So, yes, the damaged skin from both neck and wrists would have been taken along with any other damaged areas.

Internal damage to the throat should tell them if its a belt or rope, yes. Answering Idlagers post

 

[dotr]

Iirc.
Kerry Winter had said that there would be a mind-blowing revelation about the case, or words to that effect, wondering what that might be and where and when?
speculation, imo.

 

[ldlager]

At autopsies, they have two jars of formaldehyde, one for samples from the left side and other for samples from the right side.

Any 'other necessary samples' are put into other jars and its all documented via audio (and possibly video) tape.

They sample every organ, anything that is suspicious and any disease processes they find.

So, yes, the damaged skin from both neck and wrists would have been taken along with any other damaged areas.

Internal damage to the throat should tell them if its a belt or rope, yes. Answering Idlagers post

Thank you JDG! Well informed as always.

 

[SeesSeas]

Iirc.
Kerry Winter had said that there would be a mind-blowing revelation about the case, or words to that effect, wondering what that might be and where and when?
speculation, imo.

I'm wondering, too! Kerry's post on 5/2/18 included this statement "An article will be coming out soon which will show the TPS “cover up”."

My father’s group of drug co’s was the largest manufacturer of generics in Canada when he passed in 65...with a million dollars in sales. Uncle Lou raised Barry and learnt the business from my father. Andreww has it right. Barry offered an option in 67 when he purchased the assets from the Royal Trust Co., my late parents executors. Then he pulled a few “frauds” to rid himself of his obligation, turned his back on us and buried the agreement.
An article will be coming out soon which will show the TPS “cover up”.
The Sherman family/Greenspin won’t prevail!
BTW: Barry NEVER asked me to kill Honey...he asked me to arrange it. It was hard to say “no” when he was giving me millions.
Best is yet to come. I will be vindicated and the truth will prevail.

 

[Kerry Winter]

Be patient....it will be revealed. According to the TPS, the Sherman’s were targeted by MULTIPLE murderers. In 5 months, where are the “phantom murderers”!?!?

 

[Hazel]

Two autopsies=two bodies. One autopsy each.

Hi Hazel. 2 autopsies- 1) BS; 2) HS

:doh: of course! Thanks guys! :crush:

 

[Hazel]

Thanks, I have tried that with Ebay but they don't send the email. I am about to try the phone call selection.
Seems there is a password protection built into the 'Preferences', shall be making use of it in future.

I don't have an Ebay account, but I went to their site, clicked where it says "Sign-In" the next page gives 2 options: Text a Temporary Password or Reset your Password.
Reset your password has a space to
"Enter the email address or username associated with your account"
Input your email there, and check your Spam folder if you don't get the email sent to your Inbox.
Sometimes it could take a few minutes to receive the email.

 

[Hazel]

When she was called by her assistant, judging from the timing she very likely didnt advise the assistant to immediately call the police. Nor did she call the police herself, which she could have done, from Florida. There is a reason for the delay. I am sure LE is curious as well.

Interesting! :thinking: all I can think of is some kind of damage-control. Maybe called her husband, who would in turn contact some one in high places, lawyers, mayor. Someone Jewish I bet. All the characters in this case seem to have a Jewish connection, maybe the perp(s) is/are Jewish too! :menorah:
(no offence intented)
Is Katheryn Wynn also Jewish?

Former city councillor Michael Feldman told the Star he heard the news when Barry’s sister phoned him Friday morning. Both he and Barry’s sister were in Palm Desert, Calif., and had recently played golf together.

“She called me this morning and was really upset that there were two bodies found in their home or something, and their kids haven’t even seen the bodies, they didn’t even identify the bodies,” Feldman told the Star.

 

[Grey-St]

Exactly! :yourock:
I had been thinking the same. Also, been thinking that if the intent was to "cause abrasions" there wont even be the need to actually pull the zip ties tight. Just do it one hand at a time, moving the plastic back and forth many times, causing friction and damage to the skin. JMHO

I'm still waiting for evidence from surveillance videos from the house, neighbours, dashcams, traffic cameras, etc., something to show the presence of suspect(s)/intruder(s) that day, and possibly days prior.
MOO

Do people really believe that BS would go through this effort to make his "suicide" look like a murder? This seems highly unlikely to me. Just because someone *can* put zip ties on themselves and take them off, doesn't mean that's what happened here.

Can anyone think of a M/S where something like this was the case?

 

[Jennifer17]

Do people really believe that BS would go through this effort to make his "suicide" look like a murder? This seems highly unlikely to me. Just because someone *can* put zip ties on themselves and take them off, doesn't mean that's what happened here.

Can anyone think of a M/S where something like this was the case?

I can't think of a m/s like this, but I also cannot think of a m/m like this.

 

[Grey-St]

I go by whatever the Chief ME says, which we don't really know exactly. All we know is he handed the bodies prior to the funeral, can't remember the dates exactly, maybe Dec. 19th.

LE continued considering HS as ONLY victim way into January, which gives a hint into what the Chief ME ruled out. ALL JMO

Given that the second autopsy was carried out by a "hired" pathologist, it's a bit hard to give much credence into his findings. It would have been better to get a completely autonomous/unbiased/not hired one. I mean not hired by the family/PIs. All JMO and how this whole case is so bizarre.

LE didn't have to agree in the end with the private pathologist, though. But they did- and did so in a very strong statement to the media and the public. They wouldn't even be wasting their valuable time on this continuing investigation if they didn't believe it to be the case.

 

[Hazel]

LE didn't have to agree in the end with the private pathologist, though. But they did- and did so in a very strong statement to the media and the public. They wouldn't even be wasting their valuable time on this continuing investigation if they didn't believe it to be the case.

What's your theory Grey-St? Do you think it was double murder? Any ideas for motive?
Hired hitman/men? or someone close to them?
Would very much appreciate your theories/thoughts about this case.

 

[Grey-St]

From what we've read on the Toronto Star, that "interview" took place AFTER someone from the PI's team "leaked unauthorized" information to the press.

The TPS read about the hired PI's conclusions at the same time as we did, from the news article!!!

Where did you read Dr. Chiasson conducted 2 autopsies? It was my understanding he conducted the second autopsy just in time for the funeral, followed by cremation, but I could be wrong.

Not necessarily true. TPS could have been aware that the second autopsies were conducted before the funeral. In fact, that was probably the case. They *acted* and interviewed after The Star article, by the sounds of it. Possibly didn't bother to beforehand? Who knows.

 

[human]

Unless it was some random murder for fun, it usually turns out to be a person who has a reason such as a long term grudge.

Sounds like the perp(s) came prepared.

 

[Grey-St]

The theory is he wanted both their deaths to appear to be double murder, not double suicide.

From the description of how Honey was found, face bloodied, cuts on nose and lips, and sitting on a pool of her own blood, after having laid face down on that pool of blood for quite some time, it's impossible to believe double suicide.

Keep in mind they were found wearing their outdoor winter coats. We are talking Canadian winter coats, which are bulky, and most have an attached hood, and many of the women's coats have fur around the neck area.

I can't figure out how the alleged perp(s) would have tied their wrists under the winter coats sleeves.

Strangled them with some type of ligature other than belts.

Then remove those ligatures once they were dead.

Then remove BS belt from his pants, and get another belt (source unknown), and put those belts around their necks.

Then tie them in a semi-seated position from the pool railing.

Then remove the hand ties, and pull the coats down their arms.

This sounds just crazy, and so complicated. If this is the case, then there should be mounds of forensic evidence all over the place. JMHO

So you're suggesting that all of this happened but at the hands of BS? Then he went and wounded up his wrists and hers to make it look like they were tied, went and put both their winter jackets back on, positioned HS, and then "hanged" himself?

That sounds even more complicated to me. Plus there's still the suggestion that they weren't murdered by belts, but by a different ligature and then positioned with belts.

 

[Hazel]

Unless it was some random murder for fun, it usually turns out to be a person who has a reason such as a long term grudge.

Sounds like the perp(s) came prepared.

A quick Google search of top reasons for murder:

An unscientific list, in no particular order:

• 
  Domestic violence

• Anger, obsession, hatred, jealousy, revenge, other transient emotions

• Longer-term mental instability

• Organized crimes, gangs, drug deals

• Reckless or criminal behavior where somebody is killed unintentionally, treated as murder because of causal link

• Mercy killings, vastly underreported

• Eliminating a perceived rival, threat, hostile witness

• Warfare, terrorism, insurrection (winers often declare the losers murderers)

Not included in the above list, but a top reason:

• MONEY, as in follow the money

 

[hudunit]

I am convinced that it was double murder.The two coroners agreed on the wrist marks and that swayed me.It implies to me that they were restrained together and Honey was held longer because she got home first.If they were killed separately there was no need for restraint.Someone sure had a hate on for them.