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Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #8
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Regarding the last paragraph above, a potential client/viewer would have to be accompanied by a realtor, so a realtor would have to be in on it (imho).. however.. if a potential client showed up with another person, in addition to the realtor, and the additional person said, 'go on ahead and I'll just (choose your excuse: ie sit in the car and wait, go and run to the mailbox, run to the store, run that errand, go pick up the kids, whatever) while you have a good look around and I'll be back in 10 mins.. ', that could potentially work (assuming they could get their hot little hands on that key while the reator was also there???).. I wonder if all realtors who showed the home during the entire time it was listed before their deaths, was interviewed by TPS to ask them if there were any 'couples' like that, where one may have chosen not to view the home the entire time?? Hope so??!!
The whole timing of the listing has always troubled me. Who lists a couple of weeks before Xmas unless you have to? Their new house wasn’t even started, so it’s not like they could move right in. Barry didn’t tolerate what he perceived to be stupid people or stupid decisions, yet they get a realtor to list the house in December? The realtor would have told them Dec wasn’t a great time to list, yet they still made that decision. Seems inconsistent with Barry,s personality to me. I know this has been discussed before, but continues to puzzle me. I think something else was maybe going on here.
I think it is okay to list in December, as I believe it *is* a time for less listings, but yet there are still buyers wanting to view and buy at that time, for various reasons.
Mainly however, for this couple, this would have been perfect timing, just *because* they would be heading to FL for weeks, and it would give an opportunity for the house to be shown without inconveniencing them... also, with the couple *and* their realtor being Jewish, Christmas is not an issue.
My guess is that the couple had wanted a camera in that area at one point in their lives so they could keep tabs on their kids when the kids were still perhaps younger and living at home? (ie perhaps just to ensure the kids weren't in the pool when they weren't supposed to be, etc.) Likely disconnected because no longer needed, and depending who ended up purchasing the home, the new owners may not have cared about a security system in that area either. I'm guessing it would have been established that any buyer wishing the system to be operational, (or even removed), would only have had to put it in the sales agreement. A purchaser may have had kids, or grandkids, and so they left it in case it may be seen as a feature - to be connected if desired... possible?
These days, I'm not sure there's ever a bad time to list in Toronto. I expect it did have to do with them being away in Florida, and perhaps hoping to use the money from the sale for construction of their new house in the spring.
Hard to say what the thinking was, I don't own ultra luxury real estate. But Toronto had just experienced an insane boom for several years, then the foreign buyers tax slowed things down in the summer of 2017. It could be they were worried prices would start to slide in 2018. Especially if you'd been in the market since the 70s, the boom and bust cycles in Toronto have been pretty dramatic.
Yes but Hanukkah is an issue for potential Jewish buyers and sellers, just as Xmas is for christians. But the bigger question for me is why sell when the new house wouldn’t be ready for at least (my guess) 1-2 years? Why move twice, when apparently Barry had to be convinced to move even once? They could certainly afford to carry 2 houses, so why not list the old house when the new one was close to completion? Just moo, but the timing of the listing feels odd to me.
Thanks for the replies! Honestly, imo they certainly didn’t need the funds from the sale to build the new house. And I don’t honestly think Barry was concerned about whether the real estate market had slowed. The value of the old house only represented about 1/10 of 1% of their net worth, and a few hundred thousand in value was just rounding.
The house to me looks very dated. The pool area is unattractive. It seems very dark. There are stairs. Not a good home for older people.
Apparently they were going to move to a condo for awhile? Much more reasonable than the home that did not seem very friendly towards an older couple
Apparently they were going to move to a condo for awhile? Much more reasonable than the home that did not seem very friendly towards an older couple
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I can’t believe there have been no major developments in solving this case yet.
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However net worth does not equal disposable cash. It seems much of Barry’s personal wealth consisted of the value of Apotex.
I do agree, listing prior to the completion of the new home does seem unusual to me too, for all the reasons residing in a home for sale is a real pain. But on the other hand, considering the Toronto real estate market did indeed severely slump in early 2018, it’s highly possible they listed expecting a quick sale, intending to stay in their condo on the interim. While I don’t have a link handy, I recall reading the value of the property was mainly in the lot value. They would’ve had to sell the home regardless, leaving it vacant creates other issues. We don’t know how long the new construction required, maybe 4 to 6 months?
Even in an ordinary real estate market, waiting until after Christmas and into spring to list is often well advised for typical family homes with considerations to children changing schools, etc. But aside from that, realtors will suggest Dec/Jan is an excellent time to list because there’s fewer new listings to compete with. For high end homes including prime locations, the market is anytime of the year.
Aside from that by all accounts, Barry certainly wasn’t a predictable, ordinary person, neither would’ve he been a procrastinator - considering how he managed to create a small company into one worth billions employing 10,000 in a highly competitive environment. So while I also am curious as to the rational behind the listing, I suspect he was the sort of person who thrived by doing things differently as opposed to what one might expect.
JMO
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In following various cases, I also used to think it an impending sign of a cold, unsolved case if LE wasn’t keeping the public informed. But upon reflection I’ve come to think that expectation comes from the U.S. where LE are often more communicative.
In Canada the general public are seldom given updates while cases are under active investigation. When charges are announced it most often comes out of the blue. So that TPS is totally mum can also be viewed as a positive sign - they don’t require the public’s assistance and the direction of their ongoing investigation just takes time.
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Wrong.
2Hope4
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If we look at this from a murder/suicide angle, then Barry knew Honey was leaving for Florida. Maybe he had been planning to do something, and maybe it was in a fit of anger, I don't know. But if planned, the window of opportunity was getting close as Honey was leaving, he would either have to wait until she was back, or carry out a plan in FL.
If we look at it from a double murder, the same train of thought "IF" a perp knew Honey was going to FL and Barry would soon follow. If the rage was against Barry, and "IF" the perp knew them well enough to know they had planned a vacation, then why not target Barry after Honey had left? If the plan was to harm Honey, I think she was not with Barry all the time, so I'm sure if someone had watched their movements for a few weeks they would probably see a pattern of when they weren't together.
Yet both are dead. So why both? Why then? Who all knew they were leaving? Who had access? I was going to ask who had motive, but that list would be a few miles long....
I'm still thinking this was a murder/suicide. I'm not decided on why Honey was killed, whether it was planned or some attack that escalated to murder. I don't think it was an accidental killing though. Not with her being strangled. Unless they were into some bondage sex...and no one knows what goes on in someone's bedroom, but I feel like that isn't what happened.
I wish the police would issue some statement.
If we look at it from a double murder, the same train of thought "IF" a perp knew Honey was going to FL and Barry would soon follow. If the rage was against Barry, and "IF" the perp knew them well enough to know they had planned a vacation, then why not target Barry after Honey had left? If the plan was to harm Honey, I think she was not with Barry all the time, so I'm sure if someone had watched their movements for a few weeks they would probably see a pattern of when they weren't together.
Yet both are dead. So why both? Why then? Who all knew they were leaving? Who had access? I was going to ask who had motive, but that list would be a few miles long....
I'm still thinking this was a murder/suicide. I'm not decided on why Honey was killed, whether it was planned or some attack that escalated to murder. I don't think it was an accidental killing though. Not with her being strangled. Unless they were into some bondage sex...and no one knows what goes on in someone's bedroom, but I feel like that isn't what happened.
I wish the police would issue some statement.
Another point of speculation is whether the timing was related to listing the house. If the perp(s) knew the layout of the house, that advantage would soon be gone.
In Calgary, the Liknes's were murdered just as they were about to move away. Probably Douglas Garland felt it was his last chance to carry out his plan of revenge.
In Calgary, the Liknes's were murdered just as they were about to move away. Probably Douglas Garland felt it was his last chance to carry out his plan of revenge.
[QUOTE="2Hope4, post: 14204899, member: 30134"
I wish the police would issue some statement.[/QUOTE]
They have - double-homicide. They have the evidence; we don't, and even if this case is never solved, that's the official record and I (for one) accept that it is the truth.
I wish the police would issue some statement.[/QUOTE]
They have - double-homicide. They have the evidence; we don't, and even if this case is never solved, that's the official record and I (for one) accept that it is the truth.
'Which' is wrong?
That the costs judgement was awarded in regard to a 'second', perhaps appealed, loss of lawsuit suing BS for part of the value of his company? (If so, that's fine, I had thought I had remembered that this particular judge was 'validating' what another judge had already ruled.)
Or that the news got it wrong and the realtor wasn't really away in Florida when the bodies were discovered?
With current talk in the news regarding the TPS chief being the TO mayor's 'puppet on a string'..... I have to admit that it did cross my mind, wondering if one month into the Sherman investigation, Chief Saunders may have bowed to the pressure he was undoubtedly up against, to state the crime as a double homicide.
Until that time, it seems that TPS was investigating the crime as a murder/suicide for an entire month, which obviously went against what the family wanted to hear, and it seemed from reports that family may have been putting pressure on political allies to do something about it.
I got the distinct impression during the Gomes press conference that she was holding back some hostility, and perhaps that is why I got that impression. She may have been strong-armed into making those statements even if she may not have agreed with them? I can't speak for how it all works, (as opposed to how it is all *supposed* to work), however I could see something like that happening.
In my mind, for TPS to have spent an entire month believing the crime was a murder/suicide, can only mean they must be grossly incompetent (and I don't believe that). At the same time, I don't personally think for a minute that BS killed his wife, or himself. I'm feeling super conflicted. jmo.
Police Chief Saunders launches internal investigation after ‘Dear John’ letter to mayor
Until that time, it seems that TPS was investigating the crime as a murder/suicide for an entire month, which obviously went against what the family wanted to hear, and it seemed from reports that family may have been putting pressure on political allies to do something about it.
I got the distinct impression during the Gomes press conference that she was holding back some hostility, and perhaps that is why I got that impression. She may have been strong-armed into making those statements even if she may not have agreed with them? I can't speak for how it all works, (as opposed to how it is all *supposed* to work), however I could see something like that happening.
In my mind, for TPS to have spent an entire month believing the crime was a murder/suicide, can only mean they must be grossly incompetent (and I don't believe that). At the same time, I don't personally think for a minute that BS killed his wife, or himself. I'm feeling super conflicted. jmo.
Police Chief Saunders launches internal investigation after ‘Dear John’ letter to mayor
RS/BBM
I think it would be very bad policing to latch onto one idea, based on first impressions, and then pursue the investigation based on that 'belief' about what happened. Time and again in the past, that approach has lead to important evidence being missed or downplayed, and other evidence being exaggerated, or forced confessions, etc, and therefore unsolved cases and/or false convictions.
I think modern real (vs fictional) detectives are trained to keep an open mind. That means identifying all possible scenarios, and then systematically collecting and evaluating the evidence to see if any scenario can be either proved or disproved.
If BS had been hit on the back of the head or had other obvious evidence of use of force like HS, the determination of murder would probably have come more quickly. The alleged evidence of wrist abrasions seems to me by no means conclusive, in the context of an autopsy for determining manner of death, since they could have been self-inflicted (or inflicted by Honey) and since they didn't in themselves cause the death.
I think police quite rightly held off jumping to any conclusions one way or the other, until all readily obtainable forensic evidence, camera evidence, and other obvious sources had been combed through, and could be weighed. For example, perhaps they collected some forensic evidence from the home that is linked to the wrist abrasions, together making a stronger case for homicide than each piece of evidence in isolation.
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