Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9

[dotr]

Very well played, dotr.

 

[andreww]

Andreww,
I feel I have to address your belief that the Sherman's death was a murder/suicide.

Simply I ask you for a moment to assume you were an investigator who discovered the bodies and responsible to decide what happened. Disregard all you know already from the media, police, the lawyers etc.
You find two bodies hanging from a railing and you do not know who they are, other than this is a wealthy area.
What is your first reaction to what is going on, based on the position of the dead bodies, the pool of blood, the fact they have their coats on, their arms are somewhat restrained by the coats.
Would you say 'aha a murder/suicide'? or would you do further investigation.

I think you would want to further investigate. It might even take you six weeks to make a final conclusion. At this point you are not 100% positive but based on the evidence you have discovered, little of which supports the murder/suicide theory, you would likely declare it a double murder.

Now I know on this forum, you have refuted everything that does not support the murder/suicide conclusion. I also believe, short of Barry coming back from the grave and declaring he did not kill Honey, nothing will change your mind. That's okay, we need dissenting opinions to be able to fortify the M/M theories.
Please understand that you should keep an open mind though. I accept that I may be wrong about the M/M scenario. Hopefully, we will know the truth soon.

I accept that it may be a double murder as well. However, I despise the idea of independent investigations by wealth parties with an obvious partiality spreading their views through the media and through influential members of the political arena. The second we went down that road the case was tainted. I'll chose to believe what TPS originally believed before they started feeling the pressure.

Aside from that, I honestly think that if you take a step backwards and look at the details of this case through untainted eyes, if this is a double murder, it is the most asinine crime committed since JonBenet Ramsey was murdered way back when. None of it makes sense, and not even the most twisted criminal would do this. There are obvious elements of staging, so we don't know what is evidence and what isnt.

 

[Indy Anna]

I accept that it may be a double murder as well. However, I despise the idea of independent investigations by wealth parties with an obvious partiality spreading their views through the media and through influential members of the political arena. The second we went down that road the case was tainted. I'll chose to believe what TPS originally believed before they started feeling the pressure.

Aside from that, I honestly think that if you take a step backwards and look at the details of this case through untainted eyes, if this is a double murder, it is the most asinine crime committed since JonBenet Ramsey was murdered way back when. None of it makes sense, and not even the most twisted criminal would do this. There are obvious elements of staging, so we don't know what is evidence and what isnt.

Whether it's M/S or M/M, it's an asinine crime. A double-murderer is just as capable of committing such an asinine crime as a demented BS committing a murder-suicide, IMO.

 

[WINDSOR]

Thanks Andreww,
For one thing we do not know what the TPS officially believed initially, we know only that some anonymous TPS sources thought it was M/S. Most times old people are found dead together it is M/S and that is why a number people, including police officers believed this scenario. Criminals know this as well.

Just because something does not make sense to you or I, does not mean that it did not occur. Finally, criminals often act in twisted and in nonsensical ways that often makes no sense to regular people. That is why some criminals are so hard to catch.

From the outset I believed the bodies were staged to send a message to somebody. What the message was, is known both to the sender and the recipients. When the TPS decode/understand the message, and whom it was intended for, they will likely find the perpetrators of this crime.

I believe the significant parts of the message are related to:
1) Location of the bodies in the house (why move them to basement pool area)
2) Placement of bodies relative to each other (plus placement of arms and legs, facing in a particular direction)
3) Type of execution (why ligature strangulation, then apparent hanging)
4) Apparel of victims (outdoor clothes)

Sleuthers here is a chance to think outside the box, and come up with a cryptographers-type analysis of the message. When the mob kills an informant, they often cut out the victim's tongue as a warning to others. I believe the staging of the Sherman's is telling us something.

 

[Indy Anna]

Thanks Andreww,
For one thing we do not know what the TPS officially believed initially, we know only that some anonymous TPS sources thought it was M/S. Most times old people are found dead together it is M/S and that is why a number people, including police officers believed this scenario. Criminals know this as well.

Just because something does not make sense to you or I, does not mean that it did not occur. Finally, criminals often act in twisted and in nonsensical ways that often makes no sense to regular people. That is why some criminals are so hard to catch.

From the outset I believed the bodies were staged to send a message to somebody. What the message was, is known both to the sender and the recipients. When the TPS decode/understand the message, and whom it was intended for, they will likely find the perpetrators of this crime.

I believe the significant parts of the message are related to:
1) Location of the bodies in the house (why move them to basement pool area)
2) Placement of bodies relative to each other (plus placement of arms and legs, facing in a particular direction)
3) Type of execution (why ligature strangulation, then apparent hanging)
4) Apparel of victims (outdoor clothes)

Sleuthers here is a chance to think outside the box, and come up with a cryptographers-type analysis of the message. When the mob kills an informant, they often cut out the victim's tongue as a warning to others. I believe the staging of the Sherman's is telling us something.

I think the message was more for Honey and Barry than anyone living, except maybe the perp(s) himself/themselves. I think leaving the victims in the basement showed the perp's disdain for the couple and their success. I think it symbolized for the perp(s) their defeat over the couple in removing them from their place "at the top" in business & society and bringing them to their lowest.

I don't know if there was a message in the use of ligature strangulation other than it was a display of power over the victims, yet did not result in a messy crime scene to clean up, in which the perp(s) would risk getting blood on their clothing. I think the hanging following strangulation was to try to confuse the COD. But, it could have also symbolized to the perp(s) a legal judgment over Honey and Barry since hanging is a form of criminal execution.

As for clothing (leaving Barry and Honey's coats on them), I think the perp(s) waited for the couple and overpowered them as they entered the house. Once each had been strangled, it would likely be too much of a struggle to remove the coats and the coats acted as a form of restraint.

MOO

 

[JDG]

*

 

[ldlager]

Thanks Andreww,
For one thing we do not know what the TPS officially believed initially, we know only that some anonymous TPS sources thought it was M/S. Most times old people are found dead together it is M/S and that is why a number people, including police officers believed this scenario. Criminals know this as well.

Just because something does not make sense to you or I, does not mean that it did not occur. Finally, criminals often act in twisted and in nonsensical ways that often makes no sense to regular people. That is why some criminals are so hard to catch.

From the outset I believed the bodies were staged to send a message to somebody. What the message was, is known both to the sender and the recipients. When the TPS decode/understand the message, and whom it was intended for, they will likely find the perpetrators of this crime.

I believe the significant parts of the message are related to:
1) Location of the bodies in the house (why move them to basement pool area)
2) Placement of bodies relative to each other (plus placement of arms and legs, facing in a particular direction)
3) Type of execution (why ligature strangulation, then apparent hanging)
4) Apparel of victims (outdoor clothes)

Sleuthers here is a chance to think outside the box, and come up with a cryptographers-type analysis of the message. When the mob kills an informant, they often cut out the victim's tongue as a warning to others. I believe the staging of the Sherman's is telling us something.

Re placement of the bodies. Barry’s car was in the garage, and it therefore makes most sense that he entered the house from the garage into the basement. He was likely attacked as he entered. Leaving him in the basement meant the killers didn’t have to carry him upstairs. Honeys car was in the driveway and I infer she likely entered the house on the main floor via the front door. Early reports indicated she may have been killed somewhere other than the pool area and her body moved to the pool area. Or they could have made her go to the pool area when alive and killed her there, with Barry. I believe the basement was chosen because Barry was already there. Imo

 

[Indy Anna]

Re placement of the bodies. Barry’s car was in the garage, and it therefore makes most sense that he entered the house from the garage into the basement. He was likely attacked as he entered. Leaving him in the basement meant the killers didn’t have to carry him upstairs. Honeys car was in the driveway and I infer she likely entered the house on the main floor via the front door. Early reports indicated she may have been killed somewhere other than the pool area and her body moved to the pool area. Or they could have made her go to the pool area when alive and killed her there, with Barry. I believe the basement was chosen because Barry was already there. Imo

Good point. I'd forgotten the discussion about BS entering through the garage. But, HS was probably already in the pool area (isn't that where the blood was found?) long before BS arrived, so the pool area was likely already part of the plan. Maybe the killer anticipated BS entering through the garage?

Judging only by the way the bodies were displayed, it's obvious (to me) that the killer resented the couple and wanted to humiliate them in their deaths. MOO

 

[dotr]

Unrelated but relatable ..
Nov 9 2018
MANDEL: Reichmann family feud now targets accountants
"Families and millions don’t mix. It’s often a toxic combination that tears apart the ties that bind — a high stakes world where family dysfunction leads to wars over millions of dollars.

We’ve seen it with the Stronachs, the Leons, the McCains — family dynasties torn apart by inter-generational battles over wealth that invariably land in civil court and take years to settle."
"A branch of the reclusive Reichmann clan is in the midst of such a nasty family feud — Abraham Reichmann sued his elderly parents Ralph and Ada Reichmann for cutting off his cash infusions of about $40,000 a month after he launched his lawsuit against them in 2014.
According to Canadian Business, the Reichmann family ranks #42 in Canada’s richest 100 with a net worth of $2.33 billion"
"Ontario Superior Court Justice Frank Newbould noted that in 2014 “payments to Abraham stopped for the reason, as acknowledged by Ralph, that he did not want to continue making payments that would be used to fund the litigation against him.”

 

[casesensitive]

Well friends, it is a slow news day on the Sherman thread when this is all I can come up with. But you may be interested in watching an upcoming episode (Nov. 12) of Murdoch Mysteries, which is based (kinda) on Barry and Honey's case.

Drowning in Money

Drowning in Money | Murdoch Mysteries Wiki | FANDOM ...
Drowning in Money is the eighth episode of the twelfth season and the one hundred seventy-sixth of the Murdoch Mysteries. It airs on November 12, 2018. When a wealthy, high society couple are found drowned in their pool in an apparent double suicide, Murdoch suspects murder. This episode takes...
murdochmysteries.wikia.com

Here is a sneak clip:
Drowning in Money

 

[JDG]

Just a tip to other posters, if you quote someone and their posts get pulled, so do yours. This totally makes sense, as they are removing something but I lost a few good posts due to this the other day. Now, I won't quote but just refer to the poster by name. Just an FYI.

Keep warm, its cold everywhere!

 

[human]

Just a tip to other posters, if you quote someone and their posts get pulled, so do yours. This totally makes sense, as they are removing something but I lost a few good posts due to this the other day. Now, I won't quote but just refer to the poster by name. Just an FYI.

Keep warm, its cold everywhere!

That is a tough one because some people then complain because they say that they do not know to what you are referring.

Lose lose

 

[WINDSOR]

Some have said, the location and placement of the Sherman's body on the railing in the pool area was significant, as in sending a message of humiliation, while others say it was just an place of convenience, because Barry entered through the garage into the basement.

I think, the convenience was not a motivating factor, as a couple of bullets each, anywhere, would have been more convenient for the perpetrators.

So if humiliating the Sherman's was important who would want to do that? Likely somebody who felt they had been embarrassed or humiliated by the Sherman's previously. When one seeks revenge in this way it points to somebody who feels they have been duped or 'taken for a sucker' and it is known by his peers.

The message could be something to the effect " So you thought you made me look foolish Barry, well look at you now!" Of all the people Barry had dealings with in the not so distant past, who possibly would have felt taken advantage of by Barry? Who might be someone that Barry had been telling stories about how, he , Barry got the best of? It might even have been a small deal, or a reneged promise, but something that was very humiliating to the perpetrator. Something that would spur murderous revenge.

Did Barry publicly ever boast about his 'victories'? How he got the better of someone?

That might be significant.

We need some insight from people who knew Barry personally.

 

[human]

Or it could be their faulty perception of being cheated or not getting their due from Barry and Honey

 

[hudunit]

The murderer(s) could have thrown the bodies in the pool after strangulation.This would have destroyed a lot of evidence and DNA in the chlorine,but they took the extra time to find 2 belts and string up the bodies after death.I am still on the fence....

 

[JDG]

Human, all of the posts are numbered, by the Like button. I guess one can refer to the post number? If it disappears, there's just a number that says nothing.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

d - changed my mind

 

[deugirtni]

Human, all of the posts are numbered, by the Like button. I guess one can refer to the post number? If it disappears, there's just a number that says nothing.

I believe if a post gets deleted, it loses its number, and the next post becomes that same number, so could be confusing to refer back to a post number which by then, has become a different post altogether. jmo.
One could however, post a link to the post being referred to, and in the event the post ends up disappearing, I'm not sure what would happen to the link, if it would also become the next post, or if the link would no longer be valid.

 

[WINDSOR]

Or it could be their faulty perception of being cheated or not getting their due from Barry and Honey

Perceptions, are based on how a person feels or reacts to a situation. The feelings are not faulty but maybe invalid from others' perspectives. But they can be very real and very valid for the person having that perception.

 

[dotr]

fwiw.. rbbm.

Crime Scene Staging: The FBI, and the Wrongful Death Expert Witness
"In homicide cases, perpetrators who are familiar with the victim (spouses, boyfriends, relatives, neighbors) know they will be considered a suspect due to their relationship to the victim. They must use staging to make it appear that someone else committed the crime and divert attention elsewhere. People who are complete strangers to the victim do not need to stage the crime scene since they will most likely not be on the initial list of suspects; although, some may use this technique to re-direct the investigation to those close to the victim.

Staging is defined as ". . . the purposeful alteration of a crime scene." "There are two reasons why someone employs staging: to redirect the investigation away from the most logical suspect or to protect the victim or to protect the victim's family."

According to the CCM, there are a number of "red flags" for these cases.

1. Items missing from the crime scene to make burglary appear to be a motive.
2. A point of entry that does not seem logical.
3. Alteration of the crime scene to make it appear to be a sexual assault.
4. A crime that poses a high risk to the offender.
5. A fatal assault of the wife or children, but the husband is unharmed and/or has minor injuries.
6. The offender arranges a third party discovery of the victim and he/she is at another location when the body is found.
7. Indications of remorse for the victim by covering her/him with a blanket or placing an item over the victim's face.
8. Forensic findings inconsistent with what appears to have happened.

There are other indicators of staging and most of these will be obvious to the experienced investigator.

The primary question for the investigator/expert: Is the crime scene consistent with what appears to have happened?"

"Conclusion:
Crime scene staging may be seen in violent crimes in which the perpetrator is closely associated with the victim and needs to direct attention to other suspects. The staging is usually obvious to a trained investigator who knows that the crime scene does not make sense and has been altered. This helps focus the investigation on people close to the victim. The CCM is a useful tool for the investigator or expert witness to classify these cases and provide an opinion as to what happened. The CCM classification will bolster the expert's opinion and will be a key part of the deposition and/or trial testimony."
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The passages shown at this link are interesting, imo.
Crime Scene Staging Dynamics in Homicide Cases