CANADA Canada - Billionaire Couple Barry & Honey Sherman Murdered at Home, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #22

[FPoulet]

Another question: did the murderer(s) know about the call scheduled at 9pm with DH?

If so, they were cutting it very close between locating both Shermans and subduing them before the call started. Can you imagine if Barry had been running late and already had DH on speakerphone when he arrived at the house? Or what if the phone rang and Barry asked Siri to answer it? (I guess Barry had a blackberry? I’ve often wondered whether Honey asked Siri to call 911)

Is this just luck on the part of the killer(s)? That they got in right in this timing “sweet spot” — when both Shermans were at home, but the call had not yet started?

Or did the killers know about the call, and sought to avoid it —or even thwart it?

 

[MerlinFalcon]

Very apt question: how did the WM know he could gain entry to the home so quickly and quietly? Maybe the unlocked back door? Maybe the knowledge someone else was inside?

This brings to mind another question: why is KD so sure that there were two people there? Is this wild speculation? Or has he seen something in the file —or heard something from his sources— that strongly suggests this to him?

Maybe because of all the work involved in tying up, dragging and killing 2 people. Also, the NW isn't tall so it makes sense he had help.

 

[newclues]

Maybe because of all the work involved in tying up, dragging and killing 2 people. Also, the NW isn't tall so it makes sense he had help.

Let's not also forget the right leg injury that was observed. Since the video that LE showed the public appears to have been from after the murders, did the NW have this limp before as well in the videos showing the NW earlier?
If not, then it was an injury from the murders and if before then it was from something else from before.

 

[HereToday25]

Very apt question: how did the WM know he could gain entry to the home so quickly and quietly? Maybe the unlocked back door? Maybe the knowledge someone else was inside?

This brings to mind another question: why is KD so sure that there were two people there? Is this wild speculation? Or has he seen something in the file —or heard something from his sources— that strongly suggests this to him?

In his book KD says (p. 198) "to get downstairs, either the main staircase or a smaller spiral staircase would have been used. Honey weighed about 170 pounds, and it is most likely that two people were present, given the difficulty of moving a heavy person who was unconscious or dead."

 

[AndrewM71]

In his book KD says (p. 198) "to get downstairs, either the main staircase or a smaller spiral staircase would have been used. Honey weighed about 170 pounds, and it is most likely that two people were present, given the difficulty of moving a heavy person who was unconscious or dead."

That assumes they were killed upstairs. I’m not sure that is an established fact.

I’m open to it being two killers, but that means the second one completely escaped camera detection. The NW was apparently seen multiple times.

 

[ldlager]

He must be very thankful that he was making a phone call to them and wasn't going to their house in person.

blank

 

[FPoulet]

“I’m open to it being two killers, but that means the second one completely escaped camera detection.”

I agree with you @AndrewM71 that the location of the murders is not an established fact to our knowledge. But your quote above assumes that there is no video footage of another person — something else that I’m not sure is an established fact.

 

[newclues]

In his book KD says (p. 198) "to get downstairs, either the main staircase or a smaller spiral staircase would have been used. Honey weighed about 170 pounds, and it is most likely that two people were present, given the difficulty of moving a heavy person who was unconscious or dead."

But it is easier going down than going up.

 

[Warwick1991]

What about the elevator? The killer(s) might have used the elevator if the Shermans were killed upstairs. There’s one shown on the plans of the house - the lift. It is very small, but it’s hard to tell how big it was unless the plans had dimensions.

 

[FromGermany1]

That assumes they were killed upstairs. I’m not sure that is an established fact.

I’m open to it being two killers, but that means the second one completely escaped camera detection. The NW was apparently seen multiple times.

What is with the person, who COULD HAVE escorted HS from there, where she was before her return to her home: some store, mall, ATM, etc.? If HS wasn't on surveillance camera, the other person wouldn't have been either. This person plus Nightwalker, possibly? - Only a thought .... I'm myself not convinced of that idea, but who knows. It would have been quite tricky (?), to make HS taking this person with her. For what reason, how would the request have been explained?

 

[FromGermany1]

What about the elevator? The killer(s) might have used the elevator if the Shermans were killed upstairs. There’s one shown on the plans of the house - the lift. It is very small, but it’s hard to tell how big it was unless the plans had dimensions.

If there was an elevator, why was said, HS seldom went upstairs into the basement because of her Arthritis? She could have used the lift any time. (If I remember well, one journalist, who once interviewed her, said, HER home office was in the basement, in the corner of a room/corridor near the pool area, her desk overloaded with folders/files/papers.)

 

[sandy_80]

“I’m open to it being two killers, but that means the second one completely escaped camera detection.”

I agree with you @AndrewM71 that the location of the murders is not an established fact to our knowledge. But your quote above assumes that there is no video footage of another person — something else that I’m not sure is an established fact.

is the WM being the killer..is an established fact ?? thats my point
he is unaccounted for ? is that all the evidence..do they actually see him out of the house?

 

[RHR]

That assumes they were killed upstairs. I’m not sure that is an established fact.

I’m open to it being two killers, but that means the second one completely escaped camera detection. The NW was apparently seen multiple times.

That assumes they were killed upstairs. I’m not sure that is an established fact.

I’m open to it being two killers, but that means the second one completely escaped camera detection. The NW was apparently seen multiple times.

I am pretty sure BS was murdered downstairs in the basement. I can't see him drooping everything when he walked in from the underground garage and then going upstairs.

 

[RHR]

If there was an elevator, why was said, HS seldom went upstairs into the basement because of her Arthritis? She could have used the lift any time. (If I remember well, one journalist, who once interviewed her, said, HER home office was in the basement, in the corner of a room/corridor near the pool area, her desk overloaded with folders/files/papers.)

I don't remember hearing that her office was in the basement. I do know that when they were murdered her office was off her bedroom in a sitting area. If you look at the demolition photos there is a pic of the back of a sofa and a side table with a lamp on it. You can see a white chair pulled out close to the side table. That was her desk chair. Her desk was tucked into that area.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

What about the elevator? The killer(s) might have used the elevator if the Shermans were killed upstairs. There’s one shown on the plans of the house - the lift. It is very small, but it’s hard to tell how big it was unless the plans had dimensions.

FWIW— photo of Shermans’ dumbwaiter. (Realtor photo from houssmax.com)

If there was an elevator, why was said, HS seldom went upstairs into the basement because of her Arthritis? She could have used the lift any time. (If I remember well, one journalist, who once interviewed her, said, HER home office was in the basement, in the corner of a room/corridor near the pool area, her desk overloaded with folders/files/papers.)

It was just a small dumbwaiter. Before the murders Kaelen’s fiancé’s father was working on it.

 

[dotr]

FWIW— photo of Shermans’ dumbwaiter. (Realtor photo from houssmax.com)
View attachment 449701


It was just a small dumbwaiter. Before the murders Kaelen’s fiancé’s father was working on it.

Reminded of this play involving a dumbwaiter, it would be interesting if there was in fact two killers involved in the Sherman murders - and one of them ends up murdered too, imo, speculation,.
rbbm

The Dumb Waiter Summary | SuperSummary

Thanks for exploring this SuperSummary Plot Summary of “The Dumb Waiter” by Harold Pinter. A modern alternative to SparkNotes and CliffsNotes, SuperSummary offers high-quality Study Guides with detailed chapter summaries and analysis of major themes, characters, and more.

www.supersummary.com

''The Dumb Waiter is a 1960 one-act play by British playwright and actor Harold Pinter. A modernist tragicomedy, it tells the story of two hired assassins named Ben and Gus while they wait in a basement room for their target to appear. In their boredom, the hitmen bicker about trivial issues and rehearse the murder. Soon their sense of reality begins to falter, and strange events unfold inside the basement.''

'' The play does not offer clues as to why Ben turned on his partner, making their whole line of work seem a pointless caricature of secrecy and strategy.''

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I don't remember hearing that her office was in the basement. I do know that when they were murdered her office was off her bedroom in a sitting area. If you look at the demolition photos there is a pic of the back of a sofa and a side table with a lamp on it. You can see a white chair pulled out close to the side table. That was her desk chair. Her desk was tucked into that area.

That’s true. But in a 2007 Toronto Life article they wrote she had her work station in the basement.

“She led me down a hall beside a glassed-in swimming pool. The house had an overstuffed 1980s look, with lots of leather, glossy stone floors and a spiral staircase. We sat across from each other in the den, close to her workstation piled high with papers.”

I’m wondering if the killer was looking for something of Honey’s (a will, for eg.), and he thought she might have documents in the basement based on that article.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

But it is easier going down than going up.

How strong do you need to be to carry someone in a fireman’s over the shoulder method? Or laying the body on a blanket and drag it

 

[AddyFinch]

A small stature killer would fit into that dumb waiter, moving between floors unnoticed. I would fit in, but never be able to get out without a ton of moaning.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Could the circled areas be where possible safes could have been? (If they had any?) And also noting the dumb waiter went to the top floor in what may have been Honey’s dressing room.

View attachment 449714

https://media.houssmax.ca/201711/29/5a1f32afd3797.pdf

I don’t understand what that area was behind Honey’s bed. It didn’t seem to be a support beam because it didn’t extend down to the main floor.