CANADA Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #1

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  • #821
The Ottawa Citizen article is a slightly condensed version of a Toronto Star article dated 23 December 1984 - it starts on A01 and continues on A04.

The line in question reads - 'If she's dead, the least they could do is phone us. They don't have to leave their name. The person who took her must have some feelings.'
 
  • #822
The line in question reads - 'If she's dead, the least they could do is phone us. They don't have to leave their name. The person who took her must have some feelings.'

Good job.

Interesting, isn't it? I wonder if it was a conscious effort to engage the killer, or, just an off-the-cuff statement?

And, I wonder if the killer was following the newspapers?
Following the case in the media...?
I'm betting yes.
 
  • #823
As for luring Christine away, here is a line from an article on the front page of the Toronto Star dated 7 October 1984.

Jessop said his daughter was trained to avoid strangers but added, "She was very distraught over my situation and might have gone with someone who said they would take her to me."
___________________

It's interesting that 4 days after her disappearance her father was entertaining the idea that maybe it was someone known to the family.
 
  • #824
I have been reading this thread with interest so will toss in what I do know. In regard's to Christine's best friend Leslie. First off Leslie waited with Christine for her bus. While waiting for the bus the two girls made plans to meet up in the park with their Cabbage Patch dolls. Leslie watched Christine get on the bus and then walked across the street to her home. Leslie lived across the road from the school. (That day Christine had borrowed an eraser from one of her school mates who's father was a Fireman.) Leslie did go to the park and waited for Christine, at approx 4:30 PM she got tired of waiting and went home and phoned Christine. There was no answer.
Christine's bike was found parked inside the garage beside her doll box/bin. Above the doll box/bin was the Christmas tree. All of Christine's dolls were accounted for.

I just wanted to quote this post from MRS back in August (post 307), as I believe she may have some information about Christine's "Victoria Kati" doll. She says in her post, "all of Christine's dolls were accounted for." If MRS is still visiting the thread... could you clarify that point? Is this something you're interpreting from the newspaper article, or do you have personal information/confirmation?

I think I may have asked MRS for clarification on that point way-back-when, but I don't think she responded...
 
  • #825
As for luring Christine away, here is a line from an article on the front page of the Toronto Star dated 7 October 1984.

Jessop said his daughter was trained to avoid strangers but added, "She was very distraught over my situation and might have gone with someone who said they would take her to me."
___________________

It's interesting that 4 days after her disappearance her father was entertaining the idea that maybe it was someone known to the family.

That's consistent with Makin in RR first edition, too.
 
  • #826
It's interesting that 4 days after her disappearance her father was entertaining the idea that maybe it was someone known to the family.

Yes, and that takes us back to the importance of establishing the arrival time of Janet and Ken at the house, because the narrower the window of opportunity to abduct her, the more likely it was that the abductor was someone known to the family and someone who was familiar with the patterns of the family (C's arrival time, etc.) and maybe even someone who was aware of Janet's appointments and potential late arrival back at the house that day.

The larger the window, then the "stranger abductor" theory becomes a stronger possibility.
 
  • #827
Hi y'all, I'm still not done with all of th UC posts, but...Woodland, that's still you in that alternative plane of existence there, yes?

I'm having trouble reading some of Towserdogs' posts, in particular th one in stanza. He seems to be deeply troubled by, along with the obvious horror he's had to endure, something else he's only vaguely hinting at, something on th periphery of his memory, something 'through a glass darkly?'

The arrival time to their home is becoming crucial to me..did you not say earlier, Woodland or Dedpanman (whose name I apologize for spelling incorrectly) that the Jessops sold farm/gardening supplies from their home?

How close is the nearest barn to where Christine was recovered? Merci...
I also looked at the forensic astrology forum. Mon Dieu, that's quite the tangled & intense scenario.
 
  • #828
Yes, and that takes us back to the importance of establishing the arrival time of Janet and Ken at the house, because the narrower the window of opportunity to abduct her, the more likely it was that the abductor was someone known to the family and someone who was familiar with the patterns of the family (C's arrival time, etc.) and maybe even someone who was aware of Janet's appointments and potential late arrival back at the house that day.

The larger the window, then the "stranger abductor" theory becomes a stronger possibility.

It seems an extremely risky abduction whatever the timeline. (Not to say the search for the exact timeline here is not useful). And really MORE risky if it is a family member or someone known in the town which I would assume would be everyone in the town.

How could they possibly know that someone did not see them drive by with Christine whatever direction they took? And with the tight timeline someone could easily have been looking for their car to check their story within the hour I mean even before LE got involved.

Anyone know what the geographical possibilities are for her to be WALKED/MARCHED away from her house? From the cemetery? Secreted somewhere for a while to a neighbouring house or barn?
 
  • #829
The possibility to have walked/marched Christine unseen through her backyard to a waiting vehicle in the cemetery is very high and a very workable scenario. Taking her a short distance would minimize the risk. Jmo.
 
  • #830
I’m on the record here as having dismissed the issue of the pink teeth discovered at Christine’s first autopsy. Here’s my post from September 16, 2012 (Current post #689):

In regards to the pink teeth, I found this to be interesting reading:

MEDICO-LEGAL ASPECTS OF POSTMORTEM PINK TEETH
Borrman H, Du Chesne A, Brinkmann B.
Source: Faculty of Odontology, University of Göteborg, Sweden

While the phenomenon of pink teeth has been known since 1829, when it was first described by Bell, its application in forensic medicine has been limited.

Recently, however, attention was again focused on pink teeth in legal cases. The medico-legal implication was the use of pink teeth as a possible means of evaluating the cause of death. Pink teeth can occur during life and postmortem. Except for very few and poorly documented exceptions, they develop earliest after 1 to 2 weeks postmortem. Their chemical analogy is seepage of hemoglobin or it's derivates into the dentinal tubules.

Prerequisites are hyperemia/congestion and erythrocyte extravasation of the pulp capillaries, furthermore autolysis and a humid milieu. Therefore, they are most often associated with water immersion. The intensity of characteristics varies between different cases and also between different teeth in an individual case. Since the ante-mortem prerequisites are non-specific and can be replaced by certain postmortem conditions, there exist until now no specific correlation to the cause of death. The phenomenon is very often seen in victims of drowning where the head usually lies in a head-down position. From this it can be assumed that pink teeth even if not identical to postmortem lividity can, at least to some extent, be considered as analogous.

Since, there is no obvious connection between the occurrence of pink teeth and the cause of death, it may be concluded that pink teeth are not pathognomonic for a specific cause of death and this is therefore an unspecific phenomenon.


http://www.springerlink.com/content/m846j46j7k856443/

My position was that, by itself, the pink teeth "fact" was an anomaly and was something to be dismissed and excluded from the various murder-scenarios.

I’m not so sure now.

Before I continue, a little science lesson on diatoms.

Diatoms are a group of algae and one of the common types of phytoplankton (but they’re autotrophic – that is to say, they make their own food - like plants do - through the process of photosynthesis). In other words, they’re tiny microscopic plants, but they’re encased within a unique cell wall made of silica (think of a hard thin shell composed of sand) called a “frustule”. These frustules, or silicon shells, come in an amazing variety of shapes and forms. Because of that, there are approximately 100,000 different types of diatoms. They live in water: lakes, streams, rivers, ponds, etc. Amazing organisms, really – when you think about it.

In terms of murder investigations and forensic, diatoms can be used not only to determine cause of death – but location of the death.

When a person drowns in a river, stream, lake, or pond, they inevitably inhale water containing diatoms. The diatoms are absorbed into the blood stream and are quickly carried to various parts of the body – brain, kidneys, bone marrow, and other organs. (Reference: “Diatoms and Forensic Science” by Benjamin P. Horton, Department of Earth and Environmental Science, University of Pennsylvania.) The presence of diatoms in certain tissues of the body (post mortem) can reinforce the cause of death as drowning – as there is no other way for diatoms to get into those tissues other than through the inhalation of water and then into the bloodstream.

Since diatoms come in such a wide variety of types, the combinations and types of diatoms can be quite unique to specific water bodies. They can provide a kind of “water-fingerprint”, and some forensic investigations have linked specific murder victims to specific streams or lakes through diatoms. This linking of the victim to a specific body of water can lead to other evidence and other clues that can ultimately result in a conviction.

Why am I going on about diatoms?

On page 90 of the first edition of Redrum the Innocent, Makin describes John Hillsdon Smith’s first autopsy and goes through the sequence of events... and then we get to this:

“Smith was handed a series of photographs taken at the scene and decided to order a diatom test to determine whether Christine might have drowned. The test involved measuring the presence of microscopic plant forms, called diatoms, in the bone marrow...

In Christine’s case, there were so many diatoms in the marrow of her femur that Smith decided the test results must have been somehow contaminated. He left it at that rather that repeating the test, creating another mystery in the Christine Jessop case.”


Combine this detail (the presence of diatoms in her bone marrow) with the pink teeth (which can suggest drowning), and a disturbing picture emerges of a lost investigative opportunity. John Hillsdon Smith may have blundered right over the cause of death and didn’t even know it. He eventually settled on stabbing as the cause of death, but a second diatom test could have gone a long way to confirming drowning as the cause of death – yet, he did not make the effort. Also, the specific diatoms that were in Christine’s tissues (if they were in fact actually there and not an anomaly or the result of lab contamination) could have been used (potentially) to locate the specific pond, river, stream where she was drowned.

Imagine where the investigation could have gone from there. Witnesses who maybe saw a vehicle at that location were never questioned. Tire treads left in mud were never found. Someone having an association with that pond or river was never discovered... etc.

How many anomalies do you need lined up before an alternative scenario becomes viable? Here, we have potentially two: diatoms in bone marrow and pink teeth.

If Christine Jessop was indeed drowned – then some (or all) of the other injuries (stabbing, chest intrusion, decapitation) happened after her death. This could explain some of the other anomalies present at the body site – specifically, the lack of blood in the soil around the body when it was found.
 

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  • #831
Wow Dedpanman that information is huge imo. Because of the pink teeth, have always wondered if there was an association to her hair being pushed forward over her head, as in being held face down in a body of water.

It's mind boggling KM left this out of the revised edition.

Hillsdon Smith retained that femur btw. That is stated when the bone inventory was done at the second autopsy.

Do you know if diatoms can be found in well water? Not suggesting she was possibly drowned in a well, wondering about any other sources of water.

Thanks for that update!
 
  • #832
Because of the pink teeth, have always wondered if there was an association to her hair being pushed forward over her head, as in being held face down in a body of water.

That's a really good connection, Woodland.

It's mind boggling KM left this out of the revised edition.

I agree. I don't know if it was cut because it was just plain wrong, or if it was dropped to tighten up the book to make room for more chapters at the end after GPM was exonerated by DNA, or if it was dropped because it never again played into the proceedings.

Hillsdon Smith retained that femur btw. That is stated when the bone inventory was done at the second autopsy.

That's my understanding, but isn't it mentioned somewhere that he lost that femur eventually? I can't remember.

Do you know if diatoms can be found in well water? Not suggesting she was possibly drowned in a well, wondering about any other sources of water.

Diatoms can only be found where there's sunlight because they need it for photosynthesis. A closed well would be too dark. Any place where the water could take on a greenish hue due to algae growth could possibly harbour diatoms so long as there's oxygen in the water. They need that too. Diatoms could be found in puddles and ditches as well.
 
  • #833
I can't find a copy of the first edition of Redrum anywhere. Amazon advertises they have some available, but when I try to order one I'm advised they can't ship to my address. If I choose an alternative book, they can ship right away. Guessing they don't actually have stock.
 
  • #834
I can't find a copy of the first edition of Redrum anywhere. Amazon advertises they have some available, but when I try to order one I'm advised they can't ship to my address. If I choose an alternative book, they can ship right away. Guessing they don't actually have stock.

No, Amazon doesn't have it. I got myself a mint-condition hardcover through ABEBOOKS.ca for about $40.00 CAN. You can email the individual booksellers to ensure that you're getting a first edition and not a revised edition.
 
  • #835
Interesting lesson, Dedpanman...thanks. So, diatoms could also live in cattle troughs too, then?
On Unsolved, John Hillsdon Smith's grandson came on and said: "My grandfather John Hillsdon Smith, was an outstanding pathologist. In his many many years of practice he messed up ONE autopsy. Out of thousands. He was the lead Pathologist of Ontario; and an incredibly intelligent person. So, whatever reason for the 1st autopsy mix-up, was a liable one".

I am not sure what is meant by "a liable one"....does he mean it was a likely mistake?
 
  • #836
Interesting lesson, Dedpanman...thanks. So, diatoms could also live in cattle troughs too, then?
On Unsolved, John Hillsdon Smith's grandson came on and said: "My grandfather John Hillsdon Smith, was an outstanding pathologist. In his many many years of practice he messed up ONE autopsy. Out of thousands. He was the lead Pathologist of Ontario; and an incredibly intelligent person. So, whatever reason for the 1st autopsy mix-up, was a liable one".

I am not sure what is meant by "a liable one"....does he mean it was a likely mistake?

Okay, first thing - my disclaimer: I don't pretend to be a diatom expert but I have done some research. My understanding is that certain diatoms can travel through the air as spores and land in places like puddles, buckets of water, and cattle troughs, etc.

Jobo - I know the exact post you speak of and have read it a number of times in the past. Your interpretation of it is the same as mine. I believe he meant "a likely mistake".

However, in my opinion, John Hillsdon Smith's work on the first autopsy was sloppy at best. I mean, it's not like he made one mistake, or two... he made LOTS. I can empathise with his grandson stepping up to the plate to defend him... but there really is no defence for such shoddy work. It's like Smith was burned out, exhausted, couldn't be bothered to do certain things, just had his mind on his upcoming lunch break or something. I really want to understand what happened there at that first autopsy... and I can't.
 
  • #837
Dawlins, which one of you lovely technologically advanced chirren will do a google map of the area nearest where her remains were found & show the nearest pond & barn? I'm a Luddite. Not ashamed of it, either.

Towserdog's posts on UC were a difficult read for me...To me his thoughts were scattered & he seemed to have difficulty seeing things clearly & being able to relate them in a concise fashion. Given that he went through so much, as you've all pointed out, his thoughts still seemed 'oscuro'...opaque?

OT...Bessie----I can't watch the games anymore. It's looking like a bad season..
 
  • #838
Towserdog's last posts was saying he was having medical issues, related to head-hits in sports (hockey, I think). He gave it a name, but I can't remember, but he also said he felt better at least having an explanation from his doctor for what was happening to his head.
If you've been reading his posts, you'll probably come across the one I speak of. I don't think he's been on the site since, and that was a while ago.

Sorry, I am not the one to give you the map, I'm not very techie, myself. I can't really get in close enough on Google-maps to see if the roofs I am seeing are barns or not. The map seems to want to go out of focus..
 
  • #839
I can get it done - maybe tomorrow morning. Google Earth is no good at the body site. The satellite photos are poor quality. I use a different source for them. Hang in Donamena, I'll get them done.
 
  • #840
I like cattle troughs jobo.
 
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