Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #2 *killer identified*

[KJessop]

Did LE have some animus towards GPM or were they protecting another suspect (especially in that early investigatory phase)?

Why not frame young Cull if they wanted to frame someone?

Come to think of it was leaving the body there an attempt to frame him? (I mean not only by LE but possibly by the perp?) Your info about the younger Cull is important and the fact that he was an early suspect - it opens up this possibility seems to me (?).

Was your suspect JP someone that somebody in LE would want to protect?

LE had 4 or 5 viable suspects they were investigating when they first interviewed GPM. The lead detectives got a gut instinct. They dropped all other suspects and went after him.
Cull wasn't that young, and could prove he didn't do it. They did not set out to frame someone, they believed Morin was guilty. Twisted evidence, created evidence, lost exculpatory evidence, and did everything to convict him.
Cull, suspect may have been to strong a word. As I said before. He was the first questioned as it was his property and trailer.
JP never was considered and as far as I know never questioned. My mother and I never met him. He was my dads friend, and Christine had been at the co-op a ton of times as the chickens we had were considered hers so she went with mt dad there to get feed etc.

Going back to the suspects, the ones they had were way more viable then GPM ever was... And they just dropped them after the first interview with GPM

 

[KJessop]

I thank you all for your interest. After the shootings last friday, it just wore me down. It took a couple of days to realize it dredged a lot of buried emotions. I think just the descriptions of the kids, what they liked, then people saying they would never experience this and that. I think of the twins. The surviving twin will live with survivors guilt forever. As I do. This is a hard enough time for me. I was doing really good this year.
I feel guilty for wishing this never happened. For wishing my birth mother had kept me so I didn't go through this. For wishing I had been the one killed. For existing at all. It is so hard.
Then I beat myself down for it.
I am trying to deal with this all again.
I want to write a book about the truth of what went on behind the scenes. As with my brain injury I don't know how much longer I will remember.
No one will help.
I don't know why I wrote this.
Just felt it needed to be said.

 

[Chorley8]

KJessop, since you have broached it - I think a book would be an amazing and remarkable tribute even if of an intensely troubling kind to Christine.

You have passion, a kind of raw candour, and it comes through even in e-mail postings (not easy!) and an editor could help you shape it.

Hard for me to believe nobody would touch it I mean a publisher. Some of the interesting 'additional' issues you mention such as survivor's guilt, the effects of trauma, troubles with the media - many people have these for various and different reasons.

And obviously your story, the gist of it, is unique to you and there is a sense that it should, even has to be told I had better add the standard proviso IMO. It would be a chance to publish some nice pictures of Christine too, not just the murdered girl, Christine as you knew her and then everything she should have had a chance to be.

 

[Woodland]

Chorley8 - have you verified such an attempt has never been tried before?

 

[KJessop]

Woodland is right, someone did A couple years ago, I was leary due to this person wanting to only talk by e-mail, gave my phone # then had a battle with bell Canada. Unlike here, there was no way to verify who I was and the person took the stand that I was a fake. And people took sides. But I had so many concerns, I wasn't going ahead anyways.
It was a whole battle that doesn't apply here because my identity is verified.

 

[Woodland]

So Ken, I haven't heard from you yet regarding the information you think is best dealt with in private. The forum suits me if that's OK.

You had a discussion with Neale Tweedy regarding me - that much we know from you. When was that? I'm thinking soon after December 2006. He must have contacted you unless you had heard of me before that which I can't see.

According to you Tweedy did not tell you what I had said as far as a suspect in that conversation. Was he suggesting you not listen to what I said if you ever head it?

If you still talk to Tweedy tell him I'm still wondering about the suspects borrowed money - public knowledge due to the type of transaction.

 

[KJessop]

Tweedy is long gone from the case. I have not been on nor will I be for a while. It is the holidays and the last thing I want to think about is the past. I have a life and am planning on enjoying it for a bit. Also did you not read my post about what has dredged up by conneticut? I am stepping away for a couple weeks. To enjoy life.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays To everyone, and all the best in the new year.
Ken Jessop

 

[orora]

Tis the season, there will be plenty of time to ask and hear more when the time comes. Thanks all, Merry Christmas... Hope to see you all back in the new year!!

 

[Woodland]

I agree KJ - it's very strange that Tweedy would contact a victim's family regarding a tipster years after he was off the case.

Happy Holidays!

 

[Chorley8]

"On December 31st 1984 Frederick Patterson and his two young daughters were out for a walk along a tractor path south of the Fourth Concession of Brock Township just west of Durham Regional Road 2 when they made a grisly discovery. The temperature that afternoon was about 35 degrees farenheit there was very little wind, the ground surface was dry, and the sky was overcast. The Fourth Concession also known as Brock Concession Road runs east and west. A rutted tractor path leading into the field from the Fourth Concession curved in a way that precluded anyone who was walking along the path from seeing what was on the other side of the bend. The area to the west of the tractor path as one walked south from the fourth concession and leading up to a clearing in which a trailer was permanently parked was grassy, lightly wooded, and intespersed with cedar trees and growth. As the Pattersons walked along the tractor path they spotted what initially appeared to them to be garbage approximately 25 feet from the west edge of the tractor path. The trailer which had been put there by the owners of the property was approximately 60 to 70 feet from the site of this "garbage". The Pattersons who were neighbours went to the trailer to see if anyone was there. It was unoccupied and it appeared someone had broken into it.

Mr. Patterson and his daughers then walked along a trail in the grass towards the site of the 'garbage'. The grass adjacent to the beaten down pathway was approximately one and a half feet tall. As they came closer to the site Mr. Patterson realized they had come upon the remains of a child. Although he had walked along this property a number of times between October 3rd 1984 and December 31st 1984 this is the first time he had noticed the remains."

Will discuss separately.

 

[Chorley8]

Just a brief bit for now.

1. Could be casual writing but in the report quoted previous page it sounds like there is a path from the trailer to the site with grasses one and a half feet tall on each side. Also possible that there was instead a path to the remains from the tractor path but Durham suggests the former. Surely this is very significant? Probably the grasses would be tall brown hard in winter stems very difficult to walk through difficult even to pad down.

2. Why was the 'garbage" not noticed before? Why go to the trailer before checking the garbage they knew that the Culls were not there and surely it would be dangerous to approach the trailer if there was an illegal inhabitant with two small children o/w. (?).

3. What made the Pattersons take this walk and notice the remains just a few hours before Christine's remains would have disappeared from view for some time? It sounds like the break in was around this time as well? Is Patterson still alive? If there is one person I would like to talk to or have someone talk to it is him. Because there may be something he has not even thought of that happened earlier that day that could be significant.

4. I know KJ answered me and said the remains were intended to be well hidden but that seems only to be partly true since surely there were better locations around. It does seem possible that the site was intended to implicate someone around the property.

5. Is Fred Patterson a farmer or a hobby farmer who works in the city?

 

[Woodland]

1. Could be casual writing but in the report quoted previous page it sounds like there is a path from the trailer to the site with grasses one and a half feet tall on each side. Also possible that there was instead a path to the remains from the tractor path but Durham suggests the former. Surely this is very significant? Probably the grasses would be tall brown hard in winter stems very difficult to walk through difficult even to pad down.

Redrum does not suggest a path from the trailer to the body site.

Imo, it's important to remember that Kaufman knows about the site and observations of the site from Neale Tweedy - page 13 of the KR.

 

[Woodland]

4. I know KJ answered me and said the remains were intended to be well hidden but that seems only to be partly true since surely there were better locations around. It does seem possible that the site was intended to implicate someone around the property.

Intended to implicate someone around the property or a meaningful location to someone? Difficult to know which one unless the killer decides to tell one way or the other. Imo.

 

[Chorley8]

Woodland I agree just trying to add a scenario. It is an interesting exercise to try and think through how many people would have known about the trailer, its probable lack of occupancy, the fact that the car at the end of road was abandoned. On one hand you would think "not many" and thus a very small pool of suspects on the other hand having grown up in rural Ontario to some extent myself I think people do know surprisingly arcane things about their area whatever we can take area to mean. Certainly people beyond the immediate circle might ask about the trailer or about the car just passing time and curious so a surprisingly distant marginal figure could know what they need to know. (It is possible though I am not convinced hence my curiousity about that New Year's eve and his walk with his daughters).

The path in the grass ok soon I am going to go back and read the two editions of M. and the other book. For now I have a question for you Woodland and if KJessop wanted to add his opinion or anyone else that would be great.

In your opinion is the evidence in favour of someone visiting or tending or manipulating the remains for whatever reason? Were the extra bones KJ found added later by the culprit or it is simply a result of sloppy work and to be fair to LE possibly the storm that fell that night?

Thanks! Best New Years wishes to you all.

 

[Chorley8]

Redrum does not suggest a path from the trailer to the body site.

Imo, it's important to remember that Kaufman knows about the site and observations of the site from Neale Tweedy - page 13 of the KR.

Read your citation but it doesn't suggest, as far as I can tell, that "Kaufman knows about the site and observations of the site from Neale Tweedy" - surely it is most of an amalgam than that?

The fact that something is left out of a popular crime book doesn't mean it isn't the case IMO. It is so important that you would expect Makin to confront it as incorrect if he thought it was. (?)

 

[jobo]

Patterson walked the dog/grandkids down to the Cull's trailer which is the first driveway on the south side heading west in from County Rd #2. (there is not that many residences along Concession 4...it's sporadic).
I believe Patterson lived on County Rd #2....which is not that quiet of a road. (speed limit 80 kmph). It leads south to Oshawa, so many people from further north use it. (it is also called Simcoe Rd).

So, it kindof makes sense to me that if you wanted to take a nice walk with the grandkids and dog....then go down Concession #4, and stay off County Rd #2. I am not 100% positive, but I think the back of the Patterson property would be near the trailer.....they may have even cut through the field to get to the trailer.

Since I have been to the driveway of the trailer....I would think a person would HAVE to know about it being there, no way would someone just driving by would realize there was a holiday trailer on site. I did NOT see the trailer and learned about it on these websites.
It just looks like another driveway, except now it has a gate across it.

Towserdog, if you are talking about who I think you are talking about regarding writing a book.....he just released one last fall and I am surprised you two didn't get it together....I think he could've been your man. But, just my humble opinion.

 

[Chorley8]

Patterson walked the dog/grandkids down to the Cull's trailer which is the first driveway on the south side heading west in from County Rd #2. (there is not that many residences along Concession 4...it's sporadic).
I believe Patterson lived on County Rd #2....which is not that quiet of a road. (speed limit 80 kmph). It leads south to Oshawa, so many people from further north use it. (it is also called Simcoe Rd).

So, it kindof makes sense to me that if you wanted to take a nice walk with the grandkids and dog....then go down Concession #4, and stay off County Rd #2. I am not 100% positive, but I think the back of the Patterson property would be near the trailer.....they may have even cut through the field to get to the trailer.

Since I have been to the driveway of the trailer....I would think a person would HAVE to know about it being there, no way would someone just driving by would realize there was a holiday trailer on site. I did NOT see the trailer and learned about it on these websites.
It just looks like another driveway, except now it has a gate across it.

Towserdog, if you are talking about who I think you are talking about regarding writing a book.....he just released one last fall and I am surprised you two didn't get it together....I think he could've been your man. But, just my humble opinion.

I have heard kids and grandkids. If grandkids as you say did the father with them or were they visiting? This isn't random, just trying to get at that end of things, not sleuthing them, just trying to understand how big that social world would be - since if they were asked to watch the trailer others might know, there could have been earlier walks etc.

 

[Woodland]

The children were Fred Patterson's daughters - more or less tweens. According to RR they specifically went to that lot to see what the commotion was about regarding 2 dogs, one the Patterson pet the other a stray.

 

[jobo]

I apologize for saying grandkids....I should have said kids. Sorry about the misinformation.

 

[Dedpanman]

I have re-posted these so that if/when KJessop returns they will be front and center for him. I sense that the frequent posters here are waiting for KJessop to address these compiled questions in hopes of moving the discussion into new territory. I have numbered the questions to make it easier for him to respond.

ABDUCTION SCENARIO QUESTIONS:

1. Did Christine have a house key, and did she use it to let herself into the house the day she disappeared?

2. Was the door to the house ever left unlocked – as was common practice in small towns during that time - and was it perhaps left unlocked that day?

3. Could you clarify this point? Is it correct that Christine’s bicycle was not actually damaged, it was just found in a fallen state?

4. In your opinion, did Christine walk to the store or ride her bicycle there on October 3, 1984?

5. Could JP have actually been in the house when Christine arrived back from the store?

6. Do you believe that Christine’s jacket was hung on the higher peg by the perpetrator? How sure are you about this point?

7. In your mind, is there any possibility that the jacket was innocently placed on the higher peg by someone else other than the perpetrator (a police officer/fire fighter/searcher) during that frenetic day Christine went missing?

8. Where did Janet usually park her car when at home and would it have been visible from Leslie Street?

9. Do you think that the perpetrator would know by the empty driveway that Janet was not at home that day?

10. Do you believe that GPM’s sister caught a glimpse of the perpetrator’s car that day? (Yvette Morin volunteered to be hypnotized about this but few useful details emerged.)

11. Are you sure that the Horwoods, and the couple at Leslie Street and Ravenshoe Road, are one and the same?


SUSPECT-RELATED QUESTIONS:

12. Do you suspect, or are you aware of JP’s involvement in any other homicides?

13. Do you have any ideas about why the suspect perpetrated such horrific injuries to Christine (decapitation, etc.)?

14. Do you think that JP hated your father and that had something to do with the horrific injuries?

15. Do you feel or suspect that the horrific injuries was because Christine cried too much, or was too loud?

16. Do you know if JP was covered in blood, or if he had any blood on him when he returned home late the night Christine vanished?

17. Are you aware of any information that JP cleaned himself up or changed into different clothes before returning home late that day?

18. In your opinion, what could be done, or should be done to prove or disprove JP's involvement in this crime?

19. Do you know if JP was cremated or buried?

20. Do you know where his remains are located (cemetery)? And, if so, are you willing to reveal that location?

21. Do you feel that there could there be a successful legal attempt at exhumation of his body in order to perform a bone DNA comparison to the sample taken from Christine's body?


CRIME SCENE/AUTOPSY QUESTIONS:

22. What’s your opinion of the “diatoms found in Christine’s bone marrow and the pink teeth evidence” from the first autopsy? (This suggested that she was drowned as a cause of death but those details were dismissed by the pathologist.)

23. Do you completely dismiss everything (facts/evidence) from the first autopsy? If not, what do you feel was correct, and what was totally wrong?

24. You have stated that Christine “was found legs splayed, sitting up, her head was balled up in her sweater,” and that “she had been decapitated.” Could you elaborate as to how she could have been found sitting up when she was described as mostly scattered bones by most accounts?

25. Exactly what evidence was there that Christine was decapitated? (Was there a report or photos taken at the time that Christine's body was discovered?)

26. Do you believe that attempts to remove other parts of her body occurred based on the bisection of the sternum?

27. Do you believe that the perpetrator was trying to dismember her for burial/disposal or to disguise the actual cause of death?

28. If one wanted to verify your description of how she was found, where would one have to look exactly?

29. Assuming that you have a copy of this report or trial transcript, would you be willing to post that description and its source?


OTHER:

30. In your opinion, looking back, did Christine spend too much time travelling around Queensville alone? If she did spend a significant amount of time alone, do you feel that could have made her a target for abduction?

31. Why do you feel that police buried evidence that pointed to JP as a viable suspect then?

32. Why do you feel that police continue to avoid looking at JP as a viable suspect today?

33. What do think their motivations are for this conspiracy?

34. What was the exact nature of the sexual abuse that Christine experienced by the brothers in Richmond Hill? Were you aware of everything that was done to her during this time, or did some things happen to Christine when you were not present?

35. Personally, I think this question is answered by the post it references, but here it is:
Why did you attack your father (grab his throat) as per your description in a recent post elsewhere: “The last time I saw or talked to my father was the day the inquiry results were released. When everyone with standing were waiting for their copies of the final report, my father found out he wasn't on the list, freaked, and in front of the press, police, etc. He had a childish fit... I walked him to the elevator and told him to settle down... He called me a name and I choked him by lifting him off the ground by the throat. I was pulled off by Metro cops.”

36. What do you think your father meant when he said: “I honestly think if it hadn’t been that day it would have been another.” Did he actually say that, or was that the invention of a clever writer?

37. Was Christine ever spanked or hit by her parents as a form of discipline?

38. Would you say that she had been abused physically by your father or mother at any point?

This may have been said already - but if it has - I'll repeat it. Thank you in advance, KJessop, for taking the time and energy to swim through all of these questions and respond to them. We are aware that these questions will probably open old wounds and stir up emotions for you. So, again, thank you.