Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #2 *killer identified*

[matou]

@ Orora: The violence, anger and force used in this crime is evident in what shows up on the victim's sketelton. I agree that the perp who did this could have done something like this either before or after what happened to Christine. How can someone so violent and deviant not ever act on it again? I suppose it's possible, but from what I've read about on this website alone, it isn't typical at all.

 

[orora]

You can't have a law and an arbitrary rule. You can have one or the other.

Two things..

Laws are based on man made rules. In the case of dna it was once deemed conclusive enough to base the tests on less markers and the results to be admissable in court. It was an arbitrary decision amongst law enforcement and scientists which markers were of most benefit and how many were required for positive identification. The 13 markers chosen were eventually accepted but it could just as well have been a few other markers included other than these. An arbitrary decision meaning this was just one effective set of markers that would suit the purpose.

Would matching 12 markers not be almost as conclusive? In some dna reports submitted to court (mainly U.S.) Not all the 13 markers are present and identifiable in degraded dna. Its a percentage persuit.

Did 6 more markers allow the profile to be entered into the DNA databank?

According to the reports the profile has been entered into the system and is comparable. I suppose your question W is really how then not if, unless you are saying the Police are out and out lying? I am just suggesting there may be an explanation other than that.

If the dna profile is in the system as they claim, I have always been puzzled by why no match has ever been made for all the reasons you say Matou. It is possible I suppose but just seems very unlikely anyone who would want to do this to a child even once would just quit. That behaviour crossed a line so far as to be no return. imo. I do not know if we test body to body dna in Canada in all cases but that may yet prove telling if expanded even into the U.S. Lindseys law is scheduled to revisit parliament hill again in the near future too. For now it is indeed a mystery on many levels why this killer has never been found. I can't help but think he has left a similar trail somewhere else.

 

[Woodland]

Laws are based on man made rules. In the case of dna it was once deemed conclusive enough to base the tests on less markers and the results to be admissable in court. It was an arbitrary decision amongst law enforcement and scientists which markers were of most benefit and how many were required for positive identification. The 13 markers chosen were eventually accepted but it could just as well have been a few other markers included other than these. An arbitrary decision meaning this was just one effective set of markers that would suit the purpose.

Would matching 12 markers not be almost as conclusive? In some dna reports submitted to court (mainly U.S.) Not all the 13 markers are present and identifiable in degraded dna. Its a percentage persuit.

Do you have a link for 'it was once deemed conclusive enough to base tests on less markers' and how that was an 'arbitrary decision'? Maybe a case where that took place?

 

[Woodland]

If CJ's killer has killed before, I give him enough credit to not repeat exactly what he did to CJ. That would be obvious enough to land him in jail.

 

[orora]

There is lots of information to be found on the earlier dna testing systems used before the 13 marker system became universally accepted. Old RCMP dna tests and court ordered dna tests from paternity tests etc all used some version in years past. Now that we have integrated dna testing and comparison procedures, its the 13 marker system that is of interest. The following article brings up some troubling aspects but does speak to the problem of trying to match all 13 markers. Note the odds involved of all 13 being matched. If the Police have and can match 12, I don't see any problem with that being court admissable.

from- http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2010/1003.bobelian.html

Then in 2003 police reopened Sylvester’s case file and found the DNA sample. When analyzing DNA, scientists ideally focus on thirteen markers, known as loci. The odds of finding two people who share all thirteen is roughly on par with those of being hit by an asteroid—about one in a quadrillion in many cases. But the fewer the markers, the higher the probability that more than one person will match the same profile, since relatives often share a number of markers and even perfect strangers usually share two or three. In Sylvester’s case, the DNA was so degraded that the crime lab was only able to identify five and half markers; California requires a minimum of seven to even run a profile against its felony database. This meant the lab had to rely on inconclusive readings for two markers—one was so inscrutable, in fact, that there were three possible interpretations, each of which presumably could have led to a different suspect.

Perhaps the suspect moved and the same MO can be found elsewhere?

 

[Woodland]

Sounds like the 6 markers in this case didn't work out.

 

[orora]

Yes, this case and there are more showed the downside where there were too few markers being matched. But the general parameters and limitations of the codis DNA testing system were spelled out sufficiently enough that we can get a pretty good understanding how it works.

A 13 marker match is almost over kill in some ways but good for them. Better to be 100% sure. 6 is insufficient to prove guilt but may still be valuable to exclude a suspect. 7according to California law is the minimum # of markers that they allow to be entered into the system. We have adopted the same system as theirs now.

For Christine, they say they have an additional 6 markers, that is 6 plus the original 6 markers which makes it quite possible to enter a near complete profile into the data base for comparison. According the California example above, a minimum of 7 markers is acceptable and compatable and would work with the system. Of course any hits would have to be scrutinized and possibly some manual testing done in conjunction with whatever the tests results were but all in all, it is entirely possible and plausible Christine's killer is in the system.

Why no match is another story.

 

[Woodland]

If you go back and check orora, the first markers, regardless of how many, were from a DQ Alpha test - incompatible with Canada's DNA Databank. Canada started a DNA Databank in 2000 - we haven't adopted anything since.

The DQ Alpha test was a complete profile excluding GPM entirely - no doubts.

If the markers from the DQ Alpha test were useful, there would have been no need to look for more - they already had more than enough.

 

[Woodland]

Imo, only having 6 markers available for comparison would explain Det-Sgt Steve Ryan fumbling for words on the Fifth Estate program that aired Sept 2012.

From thread #1, post #649 -

Not sure if I believe Detective Sergeant Steven Ryan who insisted the case was still open and active and that the case was solvable because “we do have DNA”. I wished they had pressed harder with questions to clarify that. Ryan seemed to fumble his words at times but insisted that the case was only “one phone call away from being solved.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville ON, 3 October 1984 UNSOLVED

 

[orora]

I think we are saying some of the same things in different ways. As you say, the original testing done in Christine's case yielded results not compatable with Canada's dna data bank. So the testing procedure did indeed change over time as evidenced.

No doubt the early dna test incompatable with todays data base, could exclude GPM as well as anyone else even today if they were tested under the same procedure for the same markers.

The 6 new markers compatable with the data base in combination with and along with the old markers would yield a very specific and highly definitive result. As said, it may take some expert to explain this properly and adequately as to whether the test process indentifying the markers can be translated one process to another. Is B on a marker under one process the same as B under another? Can they be translated via software? Are any of the markers tested for under the old test, included in the new?

An employee of a dna lab verbally claimed some of the older markers once tested for were included in the new tests. Which ones (if true) are unknown. I hope to get more information on that in the next while. Even if and or no matter which process was employed, they have a lot of dna markers to work with.

No matter any of that, we have the Police saying a profile has been entered. We know the general process allows for a profile with less than all 13 markers to be entered. The California example shows 7 as minimum but that was without the benefit of having a complete backup profile using the other older markers as a double blind test.

Which was why I also said,

Of course any hits would have to be scrutinized and possibly some manual testing done in conjunction with whatever the tests results were but all in all, it is entirely possible and plausible Christine's killer is in the system.

I think I said before that it may not be a question of if they have a profile entered into the system, its more how. I see possibilities of that being possible and tend to accept the Police saying it is over having to believe them lying. Exactly how this is possible may be a question for a forensic expert. It may be by unusual/ non standard means requiring some manual inputs. If some forensic expert is available to show exactly how, all the better.

For now if anyone wishes to believe the Police that they have entered a profile or not is their choice. I suppose you can find ammunition for either side of the argument. Someone from within LE or the Justice Department with the specific knowledge could probabaly answer in a much more appropriate fashion, how.

New processes are being investigated and inplemented all the time and DNA is still an evolving science. Some of the latest testing like that done through the geneological researchers is showing promise for Policing now too. Some of the new comparisons are being made through new computer software analysis of older dna tests.

Some testing results from some newer tests are not compatable with the dna data base either but are further definitive of a suspects id. They are add on tests when the results of the original weren't so definitive. Of course these sort of tests would have to be requested and be done manually as well.

from-
http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_arch&article_id=1320&issue_id=112007

One of the difficulties associated with DNA analysis is that if a sample contains DNA from more than one individual (known as a mixed profile), the profiles cannot be easily separated, reducing the overall success of the testing. The solution to this problem will be aided by the ongoing development and refinement of computer software to assist scientists in reaching objective and unbiased interpretations. In the future, continued improvements in technology will permit laboratories to process more samples and improve their ability to interpret mixed profiles.

A common example of a mixed profile is that obtained in a sexual offense in which semen is recovered from the body of a woman. In some circumstances, the DNA contribution from the female may be far greater than that of the male perpetrator. To date, forensic scientists need to take advantage of physical/chemical properties of the sample and their own interpretation skills to generate profiles specific to the male contributor. Where there is only a trace amount of DNA from the male or where there is more than one male contribution, it is not always possible to generate a result from the perpetrator that can be utilized in the investigation.

However, a new technique being applied more extensively in such cases is Y-STR analysis. The Y chromosome is a male-specific identifier, and typing techniques are now available that develop profiles specific to the male contributor of the DNA. The advantage of this test is in its high level of sensitivity; the test is able to generate a profile of a male perpetrator in the presence of DNA from a female contributor

 

[Woodland]

Orora - on one hand you say you realize the first profile (test) is incompatible with Canada's DNA Databank then you say the markers from that test are compatible.

With all due respect, I don't think you know.

 

[orora]

With all due respect, I am not saying that but I am answering you W. in the realm of possibilities that it may be comparable. I am providing possible explanations for how the Police could have Christine's killers profile in the data base. I am not saying that I or anyone else on here has the exact answer how that could be, just showing there may be explanations and possibilities other than the Police are lying about it and haven't really entered a profile as they claim.

The Police say they have a profile and at bare minimum as per the news report, they have 6 new markers which are comparable to the codis system. That alone is sufficient to generate hits although not definitive enough for charge purposes. But they then have the other older test results that could be replicated manually for any new suspect. Aside from codis compatibility. How many more markers they could have that are comparable to the codis data base and how is a pretty complex question to answer by anyone other than an expert and in this case, it would have to be one with security clearances and inside knowledge. I doubt that will ocurr myself.


Do you have a degree in DNA or forensics W.? Is it possible by any stretch of your imagination that the Police could have developed a profile by some means other that what you are aware of? Are you aware of all the possibilites? You once believed all 13 markers had to be present, has that changed? I believe you once admitted the possibility that software programming could interpret two differing test procedure results. Can you see 6 markers being tested against the codis data bank for starters?

From there an expert or a great deal of research may provide the specific information you require to be able to accept what the Police state as fact. They say they have a profile. I accept it may not be perfect and may require some manual comparison testing, but I believe they have sufficient evidence, information, tools, training and skills to do that.

If you wish to believe otherwise, that is your perogative. I don't believe we can say there is no profile possible under the circumatance, even though how may be beyond our level of comprehension.

Lots of reading can help with your search but in the end, an expert is still needed to interpret some of the more complex aspects. Computers are a necessity for some differing test comparisons. Markers are not owned by and are not part of any specific test in isolation all others, markers are part of the human genome.

http://www.ndsu.edu/pubweb/~mcclean/plsc731/homework/papers/jones%20et%20al%20-%20markers%20and%20mapping-we%20are%20all%20geneticts%20now.pdf

On a slightly different note, they also have or had a hair according the Kaufman report. MTDNA can do wonders with that now a days. So there may even be additional avenues for dna identification.
http://www.nij.gov/topics/forensics/evidence/dna/basics/analyzing.htm

 

[orora]

In a practical sense for all intents and purposes, IMO.. I believe it is safe to say that there is some means available to rule any suspect in or out through DNA testing. I believe it a good thing to keep hope alive that at any time this little girls murder can yet be solved conclusively.

It may not be standard and it may not be pretty but even 6 markers in the system is workable for starters given the backup available from older dna test results. The more markers you have to work with, more suspects are excluded not more included. So in effect, you would not generate any more matches by having more markers in the profile. If you can't generate a match with 6 markers, you would not do any better with 13.

Any suspect can still be tested.. if a viable case can be made. IMO

 

[Woodland]

6 markers can be a guy up the street, or another guy down the street.

Wonder how many DNA tests have been done since Tweedy wrapped up his task force in March 1998, assuming a test is viable. According to Det Sgt Ryan in the September 2012 Fifth Estate program, TPS receives 3 to 5 tips a month. That's about 700 tips following the 325 + DNA tests Tweedy claimed were done, or roughly the adult population of Queesnville at the time. Ryan didn't say how many tips were duplicates.

 

[orora]

6 markers can be a guy up the street, or another guy down the street.

Well not quite that bad but granted, the results would be far from conclusive alone. If the odds of matching 13 markers are near i in a quadrillion, the odds of matching 6 is maybe what? 1 in a thousand? Enough to rule out most obvious mismatches?

The answers to a lot of these questions would be most interesting if someone inside LE or the justice department would answer.

If there were to be a very viable suspect identified and that suspect met most all other criteria, was not incarcerated at the time, was in the area, and was a 6 marker match, I believe the next steps would be taken. I have no idea how many have been ruled out on the 6 marker match alone but they do say there have not been any matches made through codis with how many samples on file?

Is the US data base checked automatically now? As of a few years back, a special request had to be made to check against the US data base.

 

[Woodland]

No 'hits' in Canada's DNA Databank could be because there is nothing in there to 'hit' on.

 

[orora]

Good point.. Has anyone found anyone anywhere in government to submit questions to about dna? What is the criteria to get a poi tested? Where do we find that information?

 

[KJessop]

I saw the slide of her skull and it was bashed in, nasals, cheekbones, maxillae. It could have occurred from stomping, or hits to the face with a fist or an object. Extreme violence. The breastbone cut was one slice, did not see saw marks from the photo. I think the perp used a knife, a big sharp one. No saw. JMO

I ask you to prove how you saw these. her face was not crushed as you claim, her orbital bone and cheekbone were fractured. As I have stated before, her sternum was cracked by a knife thrust. The facial injuries were consistant with one punch. The perp used a knife... Really... Since the first determination 28 years ago was she was stabbed "hundreds of times" To verify that fact read the transcipt of Bernie Fitzpatryks testimony at the preliminary hearing in 85.
I ask again knowing there is no answer. Because no slides of the actual facial injuries were ever shown.

I ask you to prove yourself. Message me privately. I know the names of everyone involved with her second autopsy. Its public record.

 

[KJessop]

To put the dna issue to rest(yeah right).. The last test was 3 years ago. End of story, so you all can stop debating whether the samples are on the list or not. It is on the list. It has been from the start. All this b.s. brought up is just that. She was one of the first on the list. And has been. The maker that went to 3 independent labs could norrow it down to one in ten million... Not someone down the street. The last test narrowed down to 1 in 10 billion. There has never been a different types... As time has gone by, technology has just been able to define more markers. The person who told you otherwise lied. Wasn't mistaken, lied. There are samples on the database with only 5 markers. Because they got enough for the first sample and didn't save more. But they are on the list.
The list is a guide. If someone matchs, they can't be convicted on it. Cause their is always a chance in nature.
Orora
Don't let her bait you. She is the "authority" on the case but claims the first sample wasn't on the database. It was one of the first, and the point is mute due to the recent retest.

The Canadian and Us databases are linked, They are trying to link with interpol and the uk database, but as yet it hasn't happened.
There is enough sample left for one test, we are told.
And I will look for my photocopy I received the day Morin was acquitted. There were 6 basic markers, each markers had several sub markers. So the six is not the whole truth, but convenient to seem important.
It seems like petty arguing to you all, but it is my life and the truth I reply with.
I am not just a member with opinions. I am the brother of the deceased. DPM, found a fact to end the argument on how she was found... Just as I told you all... Then she jumps to a new fact that I have proven wrong.

Not that it matters, I baited her, and she bit hook line and sinker, Tweedy had been off the case for 8 years, but she claims he told her face to face she was nuts....

I pop in from time to time. To set the record straight. To end speculation with facts. I tell you where to look. What documents to get.
I got them... You can too. But until someone gets them and posts where they got their facts and proves it. What can I do... What do I do...

I answer your questions, I tell you where the facts to back it up are.
I can do no more.
If you have a question, ask me. I have answered all, No matter how painful or deep. Why, to give you the truth.

 

[KJessop]

In the 1995 Toronto Star article, an elderly man that knew the Jessop family made a death bed confession. The article doesn't say whether Tweedy got a blood sample from him or not.

I take it this wasn't JP.

In the same article, it's noted an accused child molester rented an apartment over a store at the time Christine went missing and this person kept a trailer parked at the back of the store. I take it this is 'the store'. No one checked this trailer during the massive searches for CJ? Or it was checked? If it's the same store, this trailer would have been parked across the street from the LE Command Post set up at the time. Or is someone remembering years down the road the Command Post being parked there. The command Post was a trailer.

This is simple, days before my grandfather died, he told his caregiver he felt guilty about her death. The defence leaked this to the press while Morin was on bail awaiting his appeal... It was found out later that the defence paid him to embellish a bit. They leaked the story. For public opinion. I gave an extensive interview to Ben Chin of City tv. Look it up.
Hope this one is cleared up.