CANADA Canada - Elizabeth Bain, 22, Scarborough Ont, 19 June 1990 #1

[Snively]

I'm fairly sure it was the older brother MB and his girlfriend that found the car.

 

[eyesonly]

I'm fairly sure it was the older brother MB and his girlfriend that found the car.

Snively, I can guarentee it was the younger brother PB and mb's gf who found the car.
MB was at work when he got the call that they found the car.

 

[Woodland]

I'm fairly sure it was the older brother MB and his girlfriend that found the car.

That can be checked and verified at some point Snively. Do you have a link or excerpt from a book on the subject? Really counting on your memory here, fwiw.

 

[Woodland]

The older brothers (mb) did exactly as you stated woodland. Took off right out of the car
ran right to her car hyper and looking to see if Liz was there.
The younger brother driving (PB) stayed in the car and shouted from his open window for
her to make sure she doesn't touch the car. He never got out of his car.

Can you clarify the 'older brothers' and 'her' - I'm guessing MB arrived soon after and ran up to the car, and PB is shouting at MB's gf (her) not to touch the car?

We need 100% here since it's available. Tia.

 

[Snively]

Re: Post #477

RB left Liz in her car and went home strictly for his alibi and then snuck out later that night and moved the body. Certainly seems logical and straightforward.

He had to leave her in the car and go inside to the gym at 10:00. I'm sure part of it was he was trying to figure out what to do and partly for alibi.

He appeared outside her class prior to when I think he killed her and the trip to the Bains residence was prior to driving past looking for her car. Remember it is only RB's word that he he didn't see her car and why he may have told Finkle he went to the Bains BEFORE he drove by the parking area looking for her car, the record of his interview read out in court has him going past the park AFTER the Bains. Nothing stopped him from going back again before he left the Bains plus also going back after either. The information in Finkle's book that is RB's own words were from interviews with the author Finkle and private investigator BK. These were done a few years after he had already been convicted. There sure is time to think about errors in time he may have made. I definitely would not take all of RB's interviews for the book as gospel.

And yes I do think he was in the gym working out prior to him killing her (9:20) then went back to the gym after that at 10:00. If you went to the gym at 10:00 to spike some volleyballs would you do it in jeans or put on the shorts you have with you? If you didn't intend on playing volleyball why would he go back to the gym anyways? If he went back at 10:00 just to yap and ended up hitting some volleyballs then fair enough.

I have never once said anything that he was acting like a drug crazed nut case. It's his own words that he was the one who spent his time trying to find her all night. What was his excuse for going by the park in the first place? What was his excuse to go to the library? What was his excuse to be outside of her class? What was his excuse to go to her parents house later? What was his excuse for calling the girl in Liz's class? Every single answer is that he was looking for her. Sure seems like one hell of a possessive person, doesn't it? Liz's own diary spoke of how annoyed she was with him always trying to follow her or find her. People that Liz worked with testified of times they saw RB just show up at her work looking for without being invited, and this didn't just happen a handful of times. Sure seems to be a classic jealous and possessive person and from what I understand that was exactly how the profile on RB showed up.

Feel free to look at the family members. Good luck.

I have put out two individuals that I think were involved (RB and EG#1) and apart from motive on EG#1 (yet I have a feeling we may be close) I think there is enough fact shown. I have yet to see anything at all to lead me to believe any of the Bains family members had anything at all to do with her disappearance. For so may reasons I think the Bernard0 idea is bull especially with Canada's justice system where charges are served concurrent. Kill one. Kill ten. It's still 25 years with no chance of parole. He has been given Dangerous Offender status so he knows he's not getting parole in 25 years anyways. Even Justin Trudeau wouldn't let Bernardo out to give him a hug. So what would he have to lose by admitting to killing Liz? Nothing. He admitted to things the police didn't even know about. This would not make a difference to him and he said no he did not kill Liz.

I'm open to any ideas and I'm interested to read any other theories on anybody else. What led me to this forum was a long held belief that somebody else was involved and through discussions on here I got a bit more info on the individual I have thought for 24 years was involved. Through these discussions I think we may be closer to finding not just who was involved but also a possible new search area to find Liz and for this I thank you.

 

[Woodland]

I see your edit eyesonly.

MB's gf. Thanks.

 

[eyesonly]

Can you clarify the 'older brothers' and 'her' - I'm guessing MB arrived soon after and ran up to the car, and PB is shouting at MB's gf (her) not to touch the car?

We need 100% here since it's available. Tia.

I edited the post as I saw that woodland. MB got the call at work then drive home
changed out of his workboots and drive to where the car was. By then the police were
there. He never got out of his car, found out the car was locked and told police he had
keys at home in his room, he went home got them and brought them back.

Snively, you need to get off this 920 thing. Read my posts about Rb's actions.
he went back to the gym and talked with guys. Besides doing the phone call to
one of Liz's classmates. Then it was 10:00.
Volleyball was a spur of the moment thing. I did that all the time
grab a basketball and shoot hoops in street wear or volleyball in street wear.
No big deal.
This 920 then the valley lot does not exist Snively. And wherever it is written is mistaken.
And if it was a witness testimony then that's wrong too. Cops prob got the person
to believe RB actually said that, especially if it was mrs Bain. It would have been
so easy for the cops to pursuade her, considering her emotional devastation.
and I'm not saying she lied on the stand at all, but the detectives can make
Anyone change a bit of their story to fit their theory.

Why won't you give RB a chance.

 

[Woodland]

So, what were brother PB's movements on the 19th of June? Were they ever nailed down?

 

[kemo]

At this point, RB has been acquitted and the appeal period is over so that issue is settled. Legally, he is innocent. the real issues are:

1) How much, if any, compensation should RB receive for his years of incarceration, his legal expenses and the years that this cloud has hung over his head. Simply being acquitted wouldn't count for anything but if the prosecution engaged in illegal, improper or unethical activities that were likely to effected the outcome of the case, such as withholding important exculpatory evidence were withheld then I would assume this would be a probable outcome.

2)Who was the real killer? As long as the Crown is defending against a lawsuit, they aren't going to acknowledge than anyone else is a suspect, much less try to solve the case. If, as I suspect, a lot of evidence was "disappeared" when it conflicted with the Theory of the Crime, it may be lost forever and resurrecting the case 24 years later may be hopeless. Still, I can't help wondering if anyone connected to the case might have some idea who might have known EB, been about 5'7", muscular with color length blond hair and drove a jeep.

3) Where is EB's body. If it has gone unfound for this long, it may never be found. From what I now of the Toronto area, there is a mix of farmland and forest with thick undercover that would easily conceal a body. There is a lot of encroaching development that might, some day, turn up human remains. Even after 25 years, important evidence might be found.

 

[eyesonly]

Snively, you said the record of Rb's interview was read allowed in court of him going
To the valley lot after the bains.
Do you have a link or some kind of proof of that please.
I would be very interested in reading this. Thanks a lot

And if RB found EB after 920 pm for arguement sake, where was
EB until that time. There are no sightings of her.

And if EB's car wasn't in the valley lot so close to her class time,
RB would never have had any reason to be looking for her the other times
That night. If that was me driving by I would absolutely stop and try and find her
That's my girlfriend. I don't need a reason to stop and see her or ask her
What she's up to and if she's going to class or whatever

 

[Woodland]

I edited the post as I saw that woodland.

MB got the call at work then drive home
changed out of his workboots and drive to where the car was. By then the police were
there. He never got out of his car, found out the car was locked and told police he had
keys at home in his room, he went home got them and brought them back.

RSBM

Is this correct?

PB is a younger brother to EB. He was driving near the auto-body shop on 22 June (almost 3 full days after his sister was known to be missing) and saw the gf of his older brother MB walking towards their house.
The gf of MB got into PB's car and soon after they, or PB, spotted EB's car parked at the auto-body shop.
The gf ran up to the car, PB stayed in the car and told her not to touch the car.
Older brother MB is called and heads to the auto-body shop, after stopping at home to change from his work boots to other footwear.
***Who called MB and from where? How far away was he?*******
MB arrives and LE are already there. He stays in his vehicle.
****Who called LE and from where?************
MB realizes he has keys for EB's car in his room at home and goes to retrieve them. Then returns to the auto-body shop.

****Who called the parents? When? When did they arrive?****************

Thanks!

 

[Snively]

TORONTO LIVE COURT DOCKET
The Globe and Mail [Toronto, Ont] 28 Feb 1992: A.11.

Compiled by Robert MacLeod Accused reacted differently, Bain trial hearsTwo Crown witnesses at the murder trial of Robert Baltovich yesterday gave starkly contrasting versions of the accused man's attitude on the disclosure of Elizabeth Bain's activities on June 19, 1990, the day she vanished.

Full Text

TORONTO LIVE COURT DOCKET

Friday, February 28, 1992

Compiled by Robert MacLeod Accused reacted differently, Bain trial hearsTwo Crown witnesses at the murder trial of Robert Baltovich yesterday gave starkly contrasting versions of the accused man's attitude on the disclosure of Elizabeth Bain's activities on June 19, 1990, the day she vanished. Kristine Kangas, a former University of Toronto student who took classes with both Ms. Bain and Mr. Baltovich, testified that when she advised Mr. Baltovich on June 21, 1990, that she had seen his girlfriend at the library on the university's Scarborough campus some time between 5 and 5:30 p.m. on June 19, "He said, 'Don't tell anybody, because her parents don't want anybody to know.' " However, librarian Michelle Wiederkehr told the trial that Mr.

Baltovich went to campus police in a bid to determine whether Ms. Bain had registered to take out a compact disc at about 4 p.m. on June 19.

 

[Snively]

Accused sought witnesses' aid, court told told: [AM Edition]
Wendy Darroch Toronto StarView Profile. Toronto Star [Toronto, Ont] 27 Feb 1992: A8.

Abstract (summary)

Kaedmon Nancoo said he and a chum were working out at the University of Toronto Scarborough campus recreation centre on June 19, 1990, when they noticed Robert (Rob) Baltovich in the weight room around 5:10 p.m. Nancoo said a friend of Baltovich's had approached him first about what time he saw the accused in the weight room. The friend insisted it had to be around 7 p.m. and Nancoo said he skirted the issue because he didn't want to get into an argument.

Full Text

The lover of a missing woman, who became a prime suspect in her presumed murder, asked friends if they could place him in the school gym the day she vanished, an acquaintance said yesterday.

Kaedmon Nancoo said he and a chum were working out at the University of Toronto Scarborough campus recreation centre on June 19, 1990, when they noticed Robert (Rob) Baltovich in the weight room around 5:10 p.m.

Nancoo said Baltovich had on lycra cycling shorts and a T-shirt when he saw him. He said the 26-year-old philosophy graduate looked more muscular, had a darker tan and short, lighter hair than he has today.

Baltovich has pleaded not guilty to second- degree murder in the disappearance of 22- year-old Elizabeth Bain, who vanished from the campus where she was taking summer classes on June 19, 1990. Her body has never been recovered and she is presumed dead.

Six days after Bain's disappearance, Baltovich went up to Nancoo and said he believed he was the prime suspect in a murder case.

"He was trying to get people to place him at the rec centre at 7 to 7:10 p.m. I said I could place him in the weight room on Tuesday, June 19, but not at 7:10 p.m.," Nancoo testified.

He said Baltovich wasn't trying to get him to lie, but he told him not to tell police they had been talking. He also suggested that if Nancoo was not certain of the time he saw him, he should not say anything to the police.

Nancoo said a friend of Baltovich's had approached him first about what time he saw the accused in the weight room. The friend insisted it had to be around 7 p.m. and Nancoo said he skirted the issue because he didn't want to get into an argument.

Note: The friend of RB who insisted KN saw RB in the gym at 7:00PM was EG#1.

 

[eyesonly]

With all due respect, under the present circumstances, all crown witnesses should be consider tainted in respect to what RB may or may not have said to them. The detectives bullied them
and made RB out to be some kind of serial killer. They all were made to think they were helping out a monster away. So wording is rearranged or context is changed, or not full disclosure of full conversation for exact context

 

[eyesonly]

RSBM

Is this correct?

PB is a younger brother to EB. He was driving near the auto-body shop on 22 June (almost 3 full days after his sister was known to be missing) and saw the gf of his older brother MB walking towards their house.
The gf of MB got into PB's car and soon after they, or PB, spotted EB's car parked at the auto-body shop.
The gf ran up to the car, PB stayed in the car and told her not to touch the car.
Older brother MB is called and heads to the auto-body shop, after stopping at home to change from his work boots to other footwear.
***Who called MB and from where? How far away was he?*******
MB arrives and LE are already there. He stays in his vehicle.
****Who called LE and from where?************
MB realizes he has keys for EB's car in his room at home and goes to retrieve them. Then returns to the auto-body shop.

****Who called the parents? When? When did they arrive?****************

Thanks!

Youngest brother PB and mb's gf drove home to bains house told parents found car. They called police. Mr Bain and PB went back to the area of car at 3r auto(not sure offhand if anyone else went with them will check) Mr Bain told the people left at the house not to tell RB that the car had been found.
I think but not 100% sure, that mrs Bain phone mb's at his work, which I'm thinking was up in the Brooklin area. Have to check on that one to be sure.
RB did find out and went down as soon as he found out

 

[eyesonly]

What I would love to see is all these crown witnesses reinterviewed now, to see if there was any police or crown bullying in regards to their statements and testimonies being altered or changed in anyway.

 

[Woodland]

Youngest brother PB and mb's gf drove home to bains house told parents found car. They called police. Mr Bain and PB went back to the area of car at 3r auto(not sure offhand if anyone else went with them will check) Mr Bain told the people left at the house not to tell RB that the car had been found.
I think but not 100% sure, that mrs Bain phone mb's at his work, which I'm thinking was up in the Brooklin area. Have to check on that one to be sure.
RB did find out and went down as soon as he found out

The order of events seem right. I don't think I would have left the car unattended though if it was my sister missing, especially if PB had told MB's gf not to touch the vehicle. Wonder why they didn't use the phone at the 3R office to call the parents. Or had they tried?

Can you elaborate on the u-turn PB made after his brothers gf got in the car - you mentioned this in a previous post. Was it an odd maneuver to make?

Did PB know his brothers gf was walking over to their house at that moment?

 

[eyesonly]

The order of events seem right. I don't think I would have left the car unattended though if it was my sister missing, especially if PB had told MB's gf not to touch the vehicle. Wonder why they didn't use the phone at the 3R office to call the parents. Or had they tried?

Can you elaborate on the u-turn PB made after his brothers gf got in the car - you mentioned this in a previous post. Was it an odd maneuver to make?

Did PB know his brothers gf was walking over to their house at that moment?

If you got to the street view maps in one of my previous posts woodland.
You are facing north on morrish, turn the car 180 and go south to the end of morrish and it bends to the right and goes up the next block. If you zoom out on the map you should be able to see it. I will check to make sure exact road he was coming south on before picking up mb's gf.

I will check and make sure they went home and didn't use 3r phone. Thats a good question if they didn't.

And I have never gotten an exact answer if he expected her to be coming up or it was a chance meeting.
Always has seemed a bit too convenient for me but that's jmo.

 

[eyesonly]

It was det warr who told mb's not to say anything to RB about the car being found when he asked mb to go get the his spare keys for the car.

Sorry, it was not mr Bain who said not to tell RB as I previously posted

 

[eyesonly]

Book says PB was heading out to his mechanics to get his car checked out when he ran into his brothers gf. She said she was on her way up to his house so he gave her a ride.