Where the patio work was going on was in the back yard and I can assure you it's not that secluded back there nor at the front. It's a pretty busy street with lots of neighbours and people around. As for the patio, again I can assure you, there is nothing under there.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
CANADA Canada - Elizabeth Bain, 22, Scarborough Ont, 19 June 1990 #1
- Thread starter Patience
- Start date
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
This is from the book......... (mrs B was working with limestone in the front yard).
From page 55 ...
RB is relating his story on going to the Bain residence after EB did not exit her class at 9:00 pm that night - note that RB said EB's car was gone from the parking lot after class ended and he checked again, which is why he went to the house.
'What first struck me at the Bains' was that Mark's car was parked in the driveway, but not Liz's. I was on my way to the front door when Mrs Bain walked out of the garage holding a rake. There was a big stack of patio stones piled up on the front drive near the area where she was in the process of making a new parking space. She was working so late into the night, she said, because she wanted to get this project of hers completed before Mr Bain came home from Florida the following afternoon. While she was smoothing out the gravel, I asked if she knew where Liz was. "I thought she was with you," Mrs Bain said.'
Woodland, do you think RB would have gone back past the parking lot on the way back to the campus?
Also, the patio work in the back yard was done well before June. The work being done was by the driveway but it's visible from the street.
Also, the patio work in the back yard was done well before June. The work being done was by the driveway but it's visible from the street.
I really like the way 'No Claim To Mercy' is written - it jumps between the present and the past so is constantly giving the reader info and painting a picture - likely a very accurate picture, imo.
I find myself extremely agitated, riled and angry at the way EB was raised. Daddy dearest. Brutal.
I find myself extremely agitated, riled and angry at the way EB was raised. Daddy dearest. Brutal.
A few notes for future reference -
On Sunday, 17 June 1990 EB and RB were at her place of employment, a group home, watching a movie with the residents - some they did on a fairly regular basis Sunday nights.
Mr Bain was in Florida - the other family members were in Scarborough.
At 11:00 pm EB drove a fellow employee home and RB drove another employee home - separate cars. Then they met at the rec parking lot at the campus and wandered off to a secluded spot.
Page 8, RB perspective - Liz didn't get very many opportunities to stay out late like this so we were going to make the most of it.
Note - 22 year-old EB had a curfew, her 21 year-old brother did not. EB's mother was more lenient when father was away.
EB and RB stayed in park until about 2:00 am Monday 18 June. EB was scheduled to work Monday and told RB she had dinner plans Tuesday evening with a friend. They had no plans to see each other unless RB caught up with her after her class Tuesday night - otherwise it would have been Thursday. Not sure yet what the plans for Wednesday were.
Note EB and RB did not see or talk to each on a daily basis.
That is the last time RB saw EB - although he spoke to her on the phone 19 June at about 11:15 am - both at their respective homes.
He was very surprised to see her car at the small secluded lot near the park at about 6:45 pm - windows down. He looked around for her, left a note as he was a little suspicious, then retrieved the note minutes later as he didn't think it was the right thing to do.
The only reason RB looked in the tennis court area as he and Liz had played tennis about a week prior. It was the first time in years Liz had played tennis. I read somewhere (unable to recall where now) that Liz's favorite leisure activities were jogging and tennis. Not so, jogging only, and not daily. She did not have a lot of spare time with classes and 2 part time jobs.
On Sunday, 17 June 1990 EB and RB were at her place of employment, a group home, watching a movie with the residents - some they did on a fairly regular basis Sunday nights.
Mr Bain was in Florida - the other family members were in Scarborough.
At 11:00 pm EB drove a fellow employee home and RB drove another employee home - separate cars. Then they met at the rec parking lot at the campus and wandered off to a secluded spot.
Page 8, RB perspective - Liz didn't get very many opportunities to stay out late like this so we were going to make the most of it.
Note - 22 year-old EB had a curfew, her 21 year-old brother did not. EB's mother was more lenient when father was away.
EB and RB stayed in park until about 2:00 am Monday 18 June. EB was scheduled to work Monday and told RB she had dinner plans Tuesday evening with a friend. They had no plans to see each other unless RB caught up with her after her class Tuesday night - otherwise it would have been Thursday. Not sure yet what the plans for Wednesday were.
Note EB and RB did not see or talk to each on a daily basis.
That is the last time RB saw EB - although he spoke to her on the phone 19 June at about 11:15 am - both at their respective homes.
He was very surprised to see her car at the small secluded lot near the park at about 6:45 pm - windows down. He looked around for her, left a note as he was a little suspicious, then retrieved the note minutes later as he didn't think it was the right thing to do.
The only reason RB looked in the tennis court area as he and Liz had played tennis about a week prior. It was the first time in years Liz had played tennis. I read somewhere (unable to recall where now) that Liz's favorite leisure activities were jogging and tennis. Not so, jogging only, and not daily. She did not have a lot of spare time with classes and 2 part time jobs.
EB - found it terribly painful to read about her upbringing and family life. She was a beaten down young lady - emotionally and psychologically - by her father. A true tyrant if the events related in the book are true and imo, he knew exactly what the repercussions of his actions were.
The message I get from the author - EB had no idea how to feel or act with a man that treated her extremely well. It confused her. In her diary, EB bounced between expressing love and hate for RB. I don't think it was RB she hated though, and I don't think her father was the only person she hated.
Between her last year of high school and one month before she went missing, EB attempted suicide about three times - not enough to kill herself but a call for help each time. Her family was oblivious to any of the attempts - their words and RB's observation. EB walked around with bandages on her wrists one month before her disappearance - RB watched her put her wrists in brother M's face one day - M ignored her. Her registered nurse mother was blind to it.
At this point, don't think it mattered who EB was seeing - a nasty outcome was looming. Imo.
The message I get from the author - EB had no idea how to feel or act with a man that treated her extremely well. It confused her. In her diary, EB bounced between expressing love and hate for RB. I don't think it was RB she hated though, and I don't think her father was the only person she hated.
Between her last year of high school and one month before she went missing, EB attempted suicide about three times - not enough to kill herself but a call for help each time. Her family was oblivious to any of the attempts - their words and RB's observation. EB walked around with bandages on her wrists one month before her disappearance - RB watched her put her wrists in brother M's face one day - M ignored her. Her registered nurse mother was blind to it.
At this point, don't think it mattered who EB was seeing - a nasty outcome was looming. Imo.
6:30 am 20 June 1990 - Mrs Bain called RB looking for EB. RB was at the Bain residence in 30 minutes - no mention if Mrs Bain has finished her driveway project, which involved spreading gravel, leveling it (if she wanted to do it right) and laying patio stones on top. Mrs Bain had called LE in the meantime.
RB mentioned to the officer - outside when the officer was leaving - he was worried about another suicide attempt by EB.
RB went to the campus and started with the tennis courts - looking for anyone that might have been there the night before. He spoke to a male instructor conducting an early morning lesson. RB told this instructor what was happening - about 8:00 am.
Later in the day, RB went back to the tennis courts as he was again checking around campus. He spoke to 3 guys he knew that were at the courts and told them what was going on. RB switched a work shift scheduled for that day with one of these friends.
RB spent all day looking for EB, usually with other people - a friend of EB's, gf of brother M, brother P and later Mr Bain who had returned from Florida that afternoon. RB was present when another officer arrived at the house for information - later than 6:30 pm.
After speaking to LE early in the morning - Mrs Bain went grocery shopping. Brother M had gone to work before LE was called in the morning.
Family told the officer that arrived in the evening that they had found EB's wallet in her room. They claimed this was unusual for EB especially for driving. The author claims this officers first thought when leaving was - a possible suicide.
RB and Mr Bain looked through some of EB's diary pages (after he got home from the airport) in the afternoon, looking for clues to her whereabouts. RB noticed the pages he was reading were out of chronological order.
RB mentioned to the officer - outside when the officer was leaving - he was worried about another suicide attempt by EB.
RB went to the campus and started with the tennis courts - looking for anyone that might have been there the night before. He spoke to a male instructor conducting an early morning lesson. RB told this instructor what was happening - about 8:00 am.
Later in the day, RB went back to the tennis courts as he was again checking around campus. He spoke to 3 guys he knew that were at the courts and told them what was going on. RB switched a work shift scheduled for that day with one of these friends.
RB spent all day looking for EB, usually with other people - a friend of EB's, gf of brother M, brother P and later Mr Bain who had returned from Florida that afternoon. RB was present when another officer arrived at the house for information - later than 6:30 pm.
After speaking to LE early in the morning - Mrs Bain went grocery shopping. Brother M had gone to work before LE was called in the morning.
Family told the officer that arrived in the evening that they had found EB's wallet in her room. They claimed this was unusual for EB especially for driving. The author claims this officers first thought when leaving was - a possible suicide.
RB and Mr Bain looked through some of EB's diary pages (after he got home from the airport) in the afternoon, looking for clues to her whereabouts. RB noticed the pages he was reading were out of chronological order.
Agree with the author that this comparison was worth mentioning - page 99.
EB broke up with previous bf EGen, telling him 'he treated her too well.' They kept in touch from time to time, EGen knew EB was seeing RB and RB knew EGen called from time to time.
EGen had tried calling the Bain residence a number of times up to 11:00 pm on 19 June as EB was going to pick up a text book for him - EGen's current work hours did not allow time for him to get the book himself during regular work hours. EGen did not want to disturb the household after that.
RB had also been calling the Bain residence up to 11:00 pm with his concern on EB's whereabouts and also got a busy signal each time.
EB broke up with previous bf EGen, telling him 'he treated her too well.' They kept in touch from time to time, EGen knew EB was seeing RB and RB knew EGen called from time to time.
EGen had tried calling the Bain residence a number of times up to 11:00 pm on 19 June as EB was going to pick up a text book for him - EGen's current work hours did not allow time for him to get the book himself during regular work hours. EGen did not want to disturb the household after that.
RB had also been calling the Bain residence up to 11:00 pm with his concern on EB's whereabouts and also got a busy signal each time.
Before leaving the Bain residence on the evening of 20 June, RB asked if he could have EB's diary pages to look for clues. He was given permission to do so by Mr and Mrs Bain. RB and Mr Bain had left the diary pages strewn around EB's room earlier, but now RB found them neatly tucked into a file. He found no recent entries - other than her last entry. The diary pages went back to early May.
He took them home and returned them the next morning, Thurs 21 June, to sister C. He later found one page at his home - Mrs Bain happened to be present then. In the evening, about 10:00 pm, sister C claims she found a noticeable number of the pages missing. Mr Bain suggested RB had them.
A few hours before that, Mrs Bain asked everyone present at the house (seemed to be most of family and RB) to help her finish the patio stone project. EB had not been seen by any of them for over 48 hours at that time.
He took them home and returned them the next morning, Thurs 21 June, to sister C. He later found one page at his home - Mrs Bain happened to be present then. In the evening, about 10:00 pm, sister C claims she found a noticeable number of the pages missing. Mr Bain suggested RB had them.
A few hours before that, Mrs Bain asked everyone present at the house (seemed to be most of family and RB) to help her finish the patio stone project. EB had not been seen by any of them for over 48 hours at that time.
EB had a class on Tuesday evenings at that time - the same class was also on Thursday evenings.
RB went to the class on Thursday and asked someone that knew both he and EB, KK, to step outside for a moment. KK said she thought she saw EB in the library on Tuesday, 19 June. She was not positive though - KK had been working hard on an assignment she was handing in that night and she could have seen her Monday instead. She said EB was wearing black pants and a purple T-shirt.
Mrs Bain said EB was wearing a floral blouse and black pants.
RB went to the library and asked if EB had signed out a CD-Rom on Tuesday - because - the library kept a list of who signed them out. RB knew her wallet was found at home on Wednesday morning, so she did not have her library card with her after 'leaving' home on Tuesday afternoon for the last time. EB may have been allowed to sign one out without it, maybe not. RB was denied this info and did not go immediately to the campus police to ask if they could provide the info.
RB went back to Bain house (Thurs) and sister C was wearing a purple T-shirt. She told RB it belonged to EB.
A while later (as noted above) while most or all family members present and RB, Mrs Bain asked everyone to help her finish the patio stone project then she started the bbq for dinner. No one had seen EB for over 48 hours at this point. The only one going from place to place in this time, actively searching and asking people if they had seen EB, was RB. He had not even shaved since the call at 6:30 am Tuesday.
RB went to the class on Thursday and asked someone that knew both he and EB, KK, to step outside for a moment. KK said she thought she saw EB in the library on Tuesday, 19 June. She was not positive though - KK had been working hard on an assignment she was handing in that night and she could have seen her Monday instead. She said EB was wearing black pants and a purple T-shirt.
Mrs Bain said EB was wearing a floral blouse and black pants.
RB went to the library and asked if EB had signed out a CD-Rom on Tuesday - because - the library kept a list of who signed them out. RB knew her wallet was found at home on Wednesday morning, so she did not have her library card with her after 'leaving' home on Tuesday afternoon for the last time. EB may have been allowed to sign one out without it, maybe not. RB was denied this info and did not go immediately to the campus police to ask if they could provide the info.
RB went back to Bain house (Thurs) and sister C was wearing a purple T-shirt. She told RB it belonged to EB.
A while later (as noted above) while most or all family members present and RB, Mrs Bain asked everyone to help her finish the patio stone project then she started the bbq for dinner. No one had seen EB for over 48 hours at this point. The only one going from place to place in this time, actively searching and asking people if they had seen EB, was RB. He had not even shaved since the call at 6:30 am Tuesday.
Oh good lord. Missing person + stone work in process at the secluded residence = did LE look? Just for the heck of it would have been justified, covering all bases would have been even better. The family still lived there in October 2008 as per Toronto Observer article.
http://torontoobserver.ca/2008/10/26/elizabeth-bain-follow-up/
EB had a class on Tuesday evenings at that time - the same class was also on Thursday evenings.
RB went to the class on Thursday and asked someone that knew both he and EB, KK, to step outside for a moment. KK said she thought she saw EB in the library on Tuesday, 19 June. She was not positive though - KK had been working hard on an assignment she was handing in that night and she could have seen her Monday instead. She said EB was wearing black pants and a purple T-shirt.
Mrs Bain said EB was wearing a floral blouse and black pants.
RB went to the library and asked if EB had signed out a CD-Rom on Tuesday - because - the library kept a list of who signed them out. RB knew her wallet was found at home on Wednesday morning, so she did not have her library card with her after 'leaving' home on Tuesday afternoon for the last time. EB may have been allowed to sign one out without it, maybe not. RB was denied this info and did not go immediately to the campus police to ask if they could provide the info.
RB went back to Bain house (Thurs) and sister C was wearing a purple T-shirt. She told RB it belonged to EB.
A while later (as noted above) while most or all family members present and RB, Mrs Bain asked everyone to help her finish the patio stone project then she started the bbq for dinner. No one had seen EB for over 48 hours at this point. The only one going from place to place in this time, actively searching and asking people if they had seen EB, was RB. He had not even shaved since the call at 6:30 am Tuesday.
The librarian, MW, had actually said RB asked at 4:00PM on Tuesday the 19th if EB had signed out a CD-Rom. Later the defence tried to get MW to say the request was on Thursday. This fit the defence theory that RB was still at home until 6:30PM on Tuesday. There was always an issue over sightings by RB's family. Witness reports were questioned on both sides.
Don't forget that the book relies on a great deal of RB's on stories to the author. He did not testify for himself in court. These were relayed to the author after his first trial. A lot of these statements have to be questioned.
I'm not sure if you are implying or thinking EB's body may be buried under the driveway from your first quote?
For future reference, this is the description of the findings of the ident officer on 22 and 23 June 1990, per page 122/3 of 'No Claim To Mercy'. Court transcripts are likely the source of this and other info. It's unlikely the officer gave this info directly to the author.
22 June - blood stains on the mats in rear seats - both sides. No decomp odour. Hand brake was on, in reverse gear (car was standard transmission). Cut a square inch of mat - red liquid (later confirmed to be blood) fell from the corner he had lifted. Blood was pooled on the metal floor, wet not congealed.
23 June - seat was adjusted for someone under 6' tall. Blood smeared on - front edge of rear bench seat, passenger-side rocker panel, front edge passenger-side door frame, seat-belt restraint near passenger door, the two seat-belt anchor points on floor between front seats.
Blood also smeared on items on rear floor - several small twigs and leaves, yellow tissue paper affixed to crushed pop can by dried blood, papers and a dark hair barrette.
Fuel tank was 3/4 full. Mrs Bain said she filled the car on Monday 18 June - the gas that would fill the tank would allow the car to travel more than 160 kms.
No fingerprints on steering wheel, stick shift or door handles.
Passenger door window had 8 fingerprints. Not stated here who they belonged to, if ever known. Maybe later in the book.
Drivers door had a shoe print - as if someone had kicked it closed behind them.
Other items in the car/trunk - cigarettes, scissors, matches, change purse, other papers with no blood, blankets, boots and a fly wheel.
22 June - blood stains on the mats in rear seats - both sides. No decomp odour. Hand brake was on, in reverse gear (car was standard transmission). Cut a square inch of mat - red liquid (later confirmed to be blood) fell from the corner he had lifted. Blood was pooled on the metal floor, wet not congealed.
23 June - seat was adjusted for someone under 6' tall. Blood smeared on - front edge of rear bench seat, passenger-side rocker panel, front edge passenger-side door frame, seat-belt restraint near passenger door, the two seat-belt anchor points on floor between front seats.
Blood also smeared on items on rear floor - several small twigs and leaves, yellow tissue paper affixed to crushed pop can by dried blood, papers and a dark hair barrette.
Fuel tank was 3/4 full. Mrs Bain said she filled the car on Monday 18 June - the gas that would fill the tank would allow the car to travel more than 160 kms.
No fingerprints on steering wheel, stick shift or door handles.
Passenger door window had 8 fingerprints. Not stated here who they belonged to, if ever known. Maybe later in the book.
Drivers door had a shoe print - as if someone had kicked it closed behind them.
Other items in the car/trunk - cigarettes, scissors, matches, change purse, other papers with no blood, blankets, boots and a fly wheel.
It's not the court transcripts that I'm talking about. Things like the information of what was found in the car were clearly read out in court. It's the personal stories from RB himself that are in the book.
RB did not testify at any of his trials. With the exception of statements given to police that were read out in court, a great deal of the book relies upon interviews between RB and the author that were conducted years after the fact and the trials. How much detail did RB embellish? How much did he forget? How much did he adapt in his mind over the years? How many times were altered? Without a cross examination of these stories it makes it very one sided doesn't it?
RB did not testify at any of his trials. With the exception of statements given to police that were read out in court, a great deal of the book relies upon interviews between RB and the author that were conducted years after the fact and the trials. How much detail did RB embellish? How much did he forget? How much did he adapt in his mind over the years? How many times were altered? Without a cross examination of these stories it makes it very one sided doesn't it?
It's not the court transcripts that I'm talking about. Things like the information of what was found in the car were clearly read out in court. It's the personal stories from RB himself that are in the book.
RB did not testify at any of his trials. With the exception of statements given to police that were read out in court, a great deal of the book relies upon interviews between RB and the author that were conducted years after the fact and the trials. How much detail did RB embellish? How much did he forget? How much did he adapt in his mind over the years? How many times were altered? Without a cross examination of these stories it makes it very one sided doesn't it?
actually the book is very fair for all sides. it is definitely not one sided. it is very well written.
RB did not embelish anything, nor were any times altered. The author checked everything out. There is no way he would put his reputation on the line for anyone, and print anything that a convicted murderer would embelish or lie about.
btw, the librarian did not see RB on the 19th. RB asked her if liz came in on the 19th so either you have her story mixed up in your mind, or LE did a number on her as well and got her to change her story of when RB was at the library asking about liz.
As LE did with all the other witnesses such as DD from port perry. First statement is a blond guy with mustache and by the time he's in court, he points RB out who is med brown with no mustache.
and as for RB's family. there is absolutely no inconsistent statements whatsoever. LE could not shake their story, and they checked into everything, so they simply said "well they must be lying".
and not testifying is not a sign of guilt. in this country we are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, but LE had him guilty in the publics mind before they got to court. he was advised by his lawyers not to testify. he has never been in trouble with the law and assumed his lawyers knew best.
and to say, well if he's innocent he shouldn't have anything to worry about. lol. not with what LE had already done to him. the prosecutor would have twisted and turned everything he tried to say, and take only parts of conversations and not the whole context.
there was absolutely not one shred of evidence, nothing, absolutely nothing,
The point is that the author checked everything out. Some people do think that Mr. Finkle had a bit of an agenda himself including some people who he talked to and were quoted in the book. Remember he was one of the very first to really be pushing the Bernardo theory. A lot of people felt he was taking advantage of a huge story to connect Bernardo to Liz's disappearance with very thin circumstantial evidence on the basis of selling more books.
RB's recollections have to be questioned without a proper cross examination.
RB's recollections have to be questioned without a proper cross examination.
The point is that the author checked everything out. Some people do think that Mr. Finkle had a bit of an agenda himself including some people who he talked to and were quoted in the book. Remember he was one of the very first to really be pushing the Bernardo theory. A lot of people felt he was taking advantage of a huge story to connect Bernardo to Liz's disappearance with very thin circumstantial evidence on the basis of selling more books.
RB's recollections have to be questioned without a proper cross examination.
BBME
Is there any back up to go with what other people thought? Who are 'the people' that had certain thoughts? When speaking with authority on behalf of what other people thought, it should be easy enough to provide.
excerpt from the book, pg 50 quoting from liz's diary;
""Last wednesday was valentines.......................
On thursday he (RB) broke out in tears when he started to talk about drugs. I can't understand it, but he hates himself for using his "innocence" as a way of putting himself above ( and enabling him to judge ) people on drugs. Why does the issue bother him so much? Even the issue of sex never made me cry like that in front of him and that was way more severe, because i was changing my whole outlook, engaging in something I hated and feared right before my very eyes.""
liz states that RB was her ' first '. so what would be so SEVERE and make someone HATE sex if they had never experienced it.
""Last wednesday was valentines.......................
On thursday he (RB) broke out in tears when he started to talk about drugs. I can't understand it, but he hates himself for using his "innocence" as a way of putting himself above ( and enabling him to judge ) people on drugs. Why does the issue bother him so much? Even the issue of sex never made me cry like that in front of him and that was way more severe, because i was changing my whole outlook, engaging in something I hated and feared right before my very eyes.""
liz states that RB was her ' first '. so what would be so SEVERE and make someone HATE sex if they had never experienced it.
Center for Forensic Sciences testified that they estimated less than half a pint of blood had pooled beaneaters the carpet of her car.
It was later pointed out that this is less than blood donors normally give in one sitting.
It was later pointed out that this is less than blood donors normally give in one sitting.
Center for Forensic Sciences testified that they estimated less than half a pint of blood had pooled beaneaters the carpet of her car.
It was later pointed out that this is less than blood donors normally give in one sitting.
So it could mean that she isn't dead, or she bled out elsewhere prior to being placed in the car, or loss of blood was not the cause of death? Trying to wrap my head around all the possibilities.
You sure can see how investigating without a body or crime scene are next to impossible.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
Similar threads
- Replies
- 1
- Views
- 178
- Replies
- 2
- Views
- 284
- Replies
- 1
- Views
- 330
- Replies
- 0
- Views
- 372
- Replies
- 0
- Views
- 141
Online statistics
- Members online
- 52
- Guests online
- 2,720
- Total visitors
- 2,772
Totals may include hidden visitors.