CANADA Canada - Elizabeth Bain, 22, Scarborough Ont, 19 June 1990 #1

[eyesonly]

So it could mean that she isn't dead, or she bled out elsewhere prior to being placed in the car, or loss of blood was not the cause of death? Trying to wrap my head around all the possibilities.

You sure can see how investigating without a body or crime scene are next to impossible.

So true snively.
forensics did say because of the blood smears, they believe a body was dragged or placed into the back seat on the floor, which means the owner of the blood was bleeding prior to be putting in the car.

but as you say, we know nothing for sure without a body or crime scene.

Woodland; how's the book reading going

 

[Woodland]

Took a break for fall chores, trying to absorb what I have read and shake out what can't be true with what little is known.

That info on the blood does open up more scenarios. I'm wondering if RB was correct - that EB may have hurt herself (that was his initial fear). A niece of Mrs Bain arrived about the time EB went missing (a scheduled visit). Trying to place her exact arrival - wondering if EB was driven away from the house so not to be seen, then something went wrong?

With all the problems in the household, find it annoying LE did not check the freshly dug area in the driveway. Rule it in or out.

Hoping the book or someone with reliable knowledge can reveal if Mr Bain arrived back from Florida on 20 June as scheduled (coincided with arrival of niece?) or did he fly back early because EB was missing?

 

[Snively]

Mr. Bain did come back early. I think it was the afternoon she was reported missing.

If she hurt herself there wouldn't be blood smears on the rocker panels.

The driveway is an impossibility. If you have ever dug a big enough hole, when you backfill the area it will show a hump as it is very difficult to properly compact the material to it's original density. It would be noticeable. Now if you placed a body in the hole you would have even more excess dirt and to stop animals from digging up a decomposing body the hole has to be at least 4 feet deep and preferably 6 feet. That's the reason that graves are dug 6 feet deep. To dig a hole of that depth and that size by hand is very difficult. They did not have a backhoe. Between tree roots and difficult soil in the area to dig (lots of rocks and really big ones), along with no backhoe to dig and people would notice a large pile of excess earth fill sitting near a driveway it does not make sense. The driveway had not been paved and still only had the crushed limestone fill at a depth of typical topsoil removal of 6 inches.

 

[eyesonly]

Mr. Bain did come back early. I think it was the afternoon she was reported missing..

mr. bain did not come back early snively. he came back as scheduled for the 20th. he didn't know liz was missing until mrs bain told him when he got back.

but i will check with a reliable source to make sure.

 

[Snively]

You are right eyesonly. I thought he was supposed to come back on the 21st, but apparently not. Seems his flight left Tampa at 8:00 am the morning of the 20th. I do know the police still thought she would show up that day of the 20th. Some other people who were friends of the family thought so as well, although they were obviously concerned. He came back on the 20th which was the same day she was reported missing at 6:45 am.

 

[Snively]

One other thing I found strange about EG#1, was that he forgot to tell the police he had seen RB at the gym at 9:15 pm and then told the detectives at a later time. But at 9:15 pm, RB was at the Bain's according to RB and Mrs. Bain. 9:00 RB had been outside her class. The last time that RB had been at the gym was between 8:30 pm and 8:45 pm and he wasn't back at the gym until 10:00 pm where he was also with EG#1. Sometime just prior to 10:00 pm he had made a phone call from the campus.

My question is that it seems EG#1 has again made a strange statement after earlier trying to get a witness to change the time he saw RB. The assumption from him earlier trying to get the witness to change his time is that EG#1 was at the gym at that time. Was he really trying to help out RB or to give himself an alibi? If RB does confirm that EG#1 was at the gym with him, then for how long? If RB left the gym at 8:45 pm to head to Liz's class getting out at 9:00 pm then where was EG#1? Why did he feel he needed to tell the detectives he saw RB at the gym at 9:15 pm when RB was not at the gym but in fact at the Bains? Seems the next solid sighting of EG#1 wasn't until 10:00 pm.

I wonder if the police checked on EG#1's whereabouts that night? At the very least, and that's considering he was in the gym with RB from 7:00 pm until 8:45 pm, it seems he has a big window between 8:45 pm and 10:00 pm. Could he have left the gym earlier?

 

[eyesonly]

Ok eg#1 and eg#2. Are getting way too confusing so let's say that the EG from the diary is E.GEN and RB's friend will be E.GOS at least that's how I will refer to them as woodland started with the E.Gen and good idea.

 

[eyesonly]

One other thing I found strange about EG#1, was that he forgot to tell the police he had seen RB at the gym at 9:15 pm and then told the detectives at a later time. But at 9:15 pm, RB was at the Bain's according to RB and Mrs. Bain. 9:00 RB had been outside her class. The last time that RB had been at the gym was between 8:30 pm and 8:45 pm and he wasn't back at the gym until 10:00 pm where he was also with EG#1. Sometime just prior to 10:00 pm he had made a phone call from the campus.

My question is that it seems EG#1 has again made a strange statement after earlier trying to get a witness to change the time he saw RB. The assumption from him earlier trying to get the witness to change his time is that EG#1 was at the gym at that time. Was he really trying to help out RB or to give himself an alibi? If RB does confirm that EG#1 was at the gym with him, then for how long? If RB left the gym at 8:45 pm to head to Liz's class getting out at 9:00 pm then where was EG#1? Why did he feel he needed to tell the detectives he saw RB at the gym at 9:15 pm when RB was not at the gym but in fact at the Bains? Seems the next solid sighting of EG#1 wasn't until 10:00 pm.

I wonder if the police checked on EG#1's whereabouts that night? At the very least, and that's considering he was in the gym with RB from 7:00 pm until 8:45 pm, it seems he has a big window between 8:45 pm and 10:00 pm. Could he have left the gym earlier?

Great question Snively about E.GOS

 

[Woodland]

If EB did not attend her 7:00 pm class, how does it matter where anyone was at 8:45 pm until whatever time? Where was EB at 7:00 pm, and who might she have been with?

Do we know if Mr Bain returned from Florida as scheduled?

 

[Snively]

It matters because she was on the campus at 6:40 pm. E.GOS worked at the campus with RB. E.GOS tried to get KN to change the time he said he saw RB at the gym to a later time. E.GOS also suddenly remembered he saw RB at the gym at 9:15 pm after he had worked that hard to get KN to change his testimony. Yet at 9:15 pm RB was at the Bains. Was E.GOS even at the gym himself, or was he trying to not just help RB but to also give himself an alibi for at least 7:15 pm until 8:45 pm then also place himself in the gym at 9:15 pm and again at 10:00 pm? Did the police ask him how long he was in the gym and does he have any witnesses or did these two statements act as his own alibi? If the police were actively looking at RB, and they were, would they just ignore E.GOS and not follow that up? Can RB confirm the times that E.GOS was in the gym with him? Did he leave early?

Witness reports have Liz with someone outside 3r Auto at 8:00 pm on the 19th. Another witness report has her with someone on the 401 at 8:30 pm. Other witness reports have her at the Silver Dragon with a blonde man and sitting in a jeep at a plaza with a blonde man in the days and weeks prior to her disappearance.

E.GOS fits the description of a blonde man. E.GOS was on the campus on the night of the 19th. E.GOS worked with RB at the campus, and I'd bet if he went out on a limb enough to coerce a witness, he knew RB well enough that he had met Liz.

Multiple people, including RB place E.GOS in the gym at 10:00 pm, but his own questionable testimony (witness coercion and what seems a blatant lie) are the only reports of him being on the campus earlier than that. If KN was correct that RB was at the campus earlier than 6:45 pm and in fact closer to 5:30 pm then does this also mean E.GOS was not at the gym at 7:15 pm but in fact earlier? Even if it is accepted RB and E.GOS were in the gym at 7:15 pm it appears that E.GOS was not in the gym at 8:45 pm when RB left to head to Liz's class at 9:00 pm since he tried to place RB in the gym at 9:15 pm when RB was at the Bains. Seems to leave E.GOS with no alibi from at least 8:45 pm to 10:00 pm and if he left the gym, even earlier than that. If he in fact wasn't in the gym at 7:15 pm at all then it's wide open. It didn't seem that KN knew E.GOS very well. He spoke of not wanting a confrontation when E.GOS asked him to change his testimony. Was it intimidation KN felt or did he just not want any trouble? Did RB go along with E.GOS saying he saw RB in the gym because at the time this helped RB's own alibi, (and at the time RB needed help on his alibi) but in fact E.GOS was not in the gym at all? MS saw RB in the gym wearing muti-coloured shorts at 7:15 pm, but did you notice there was no actual testimony from E.GOS that he himself saw RB in the gym at 7:15 pm? The only thing placing E.GOS in the gym at 7:15 pm is the assumption that because he tried to get KN to change his testimony to a later time of 7:15 pm it meant that he was in the gym as well.

Unless the police have confirmed witness accounts of E.GOS whereabouts for the entire night and all is accounted for, then I certainly have some questions I'd love to have answers to.

As for Mr. Bain his flight left Tampa at 8:00 am on the morning of the 20th and the flight was on time. The flight times were checked.

 

[eyesonly]

Mr. Bain suddenly abandoned a roof job he went down to Florida to do on a house he owned.
Think this is in the book, not sure yet exact day he abandoned it, but he called mrs Bain on the Monday to remind her to pick him up at the airport on the tues and he wouldn't be available for any communication Monday night as he would be in transit,
JS from the book, married Liz's aunt, says he would have been down there longer had he finished the roof.
So I'm not sure yet if the roof was abandoned because his scheduled return was the 20th or he was scheduled later and changed it to the 20th

Will try to find out exact circumstances

 

[Woodland]

There is no evidence EB was on campus 19 June 190 at 6:40 pm.

 

[Snively]

MP at the tennis courts.

 

[Woodland]

On 19 June 1990 at 5:40 pm when tennis instructor MP says she saw EB, there were 2 other tennis instructors that knew both EB and RB at the tennis courts at the same time that did not see either of them.

RB went to the tennis courts early on the morning of 20 June trying to find someone that may have seen EB the evening before. He looked there as he saw her car nearby the night before. He spoke to 2 people he knew that he saw there. He was there later in the day on 20 June to look and ask around again. Three days later, MP shows up at the first large scale search for EB, claiming to have seen her on the 19th but no details on a man with her.

Imo, she had ample opportunity to learn details from others at the courts. As time went by, MP's family became involved with the Bain family and the search for EB, to the point of having their home phone number as an alternative number to call on missing poster for EB. MP spent much time with the Bain family.

By the time MP was hypnotized, she was able to describe the footwear of the man she claimed she saw with EB. MP also recollected seeing a few Asian students sitting on the grass near the picnic table MP said EB was sitting at. It so happens LE did find three Asian students who said they were sitting near the courts that day - none recalled seeing EB or RB.

Apparently, it is largely MP's testimony that put RB away for nine years. Impressive, imo.

 

[Snively]

I was on those searches. I know MP. I have faith in her accuracy on seeing EB. They knew each other for 10 years. If you want to discount the hypnotized testimony pertaining to RB then so be it but I have faith in MP seeing Liz at the tennis courts that night. KK also saw Liz in the library who knew her and another person saw her on a bridge, I think it was, on the campus on the night of the 19th.

A lot of people were there with the Bain family at that time and another family who had a daughter missing at the same time also had their contact information on posters.

 

[Woodland]

MP had access to the date, timing and clothing information for EB before coming forward during the search on Sat 23 June on her lunch hour - where there were many cameras and uniformed officers. Friends/acquaintances of EB and RB were present at the tennis courts on 19 June and did not see them.

MP should have been discounted immediately imo.

 

[Snively]

How do you discount the other two witnesses then?

Who's testimony do you consider valid?

 

[Woodland]

I'm half way through the book and the only mention of KK is, she might have seen EB Tuesday in the library, but it might have been Monday. KK said this on the Thursday afternoon to RB and she incorrectly described the top EB was wearing - KK said it was a purple t-shirt. Mrs Bain said it was a floral blouse.

What was the final decision on what EB was wearing?

A guy who didn't know EB says he saw her walking across a bridge in the park? After reading the date, time, description of EB and clothing? This is considered a witness?

I do think her car was seen in the small lot adjacent to the park by someone who came for a walk with her mother and dog - the woman looked in the car and correctly identified some known contents. I believe RB when he says he saw her car there as well. The search of the park on 23 June was based on RB's sighting - that's all anyone had on 23 June.

After that it became the location of EB's murder - with no evidence she was there that day or night.

 

[Woodland]

According to Mrs Bain, EB went out shortly after 10:00 am to 'check some papers' at the campus and brought home some milk. No witnesses.

According to Mrs Bain, EB left a while later for a jog - Mrs Bain 'assumed' she went to the campus. No witnesses.

According to EB's bank account, an ATM transaction was made on her account at 3:45 pm. No witnesses.

Yet all kinds of people saw her after 5:00 pm on campus or in the park - info released in the media. The milk, afternoon jog and bank info was not released in the media.

 

[Snively]

I think her sister saw her that morning at 10:00 am at home wearing the same outfit from the day before.

I think RB talked to her on the phone at some point that day.

Not the crown nor the defence questioned that she used the ATM at 3:45 pm. No idea if there were cameras on the ATM (not a lot had them back then) but I believe the ATM was at a branch of a bank which would have cameras near the entrance and the ATM's. Sounds like fact.

The ATM usage was widely known to have occurred.

A sighting by a girl who knew her for 10 years. A librarian who knew her. Her car being seen by two separate people in the lot. Seems like she was on the campus.

Do you also discount any of the witnesses who saw RB that night? Considering he was a suspect and subsequently charged, wouldn't they have a reason to lie for him?

What's your theory as to where she was from 10:00 am on the 19th onward?