Found Deceased Canada - Genevieve Cormier, 19, St John, NB, 29 Sept 2013 - #2

[Truth Prevails]

I think toxicology reports are a stop gap, they have the autopsy report done and dusted at this point. The pathologist depends greatly on the circumstances of the death which he or she gets from the police. In drownings the pathologist works forward from that information because it is so hard to prove much of anything after a length of time in water.

BBM - I see what you are saying here. But only the pathologist has the means to determine the cause and manner of death for a victim.

Maybe that's the problem? Law enforcement is telling them what they should and should not look for?

They have the skills to look for themselves and make their own determinations--whether they are allowed to or not seems to be the interesting question.

That is very cold water, the pathologists may have had more to work with than we realize.

Law enforcement could not have known the cause and manner of Genevieve's death, nor the cause and manner of Shelby's or Yeonhee's. The circumstances of their disappearances told them nothing about the cause and manner of death. These deaths warranted full and complete autopsies.

The toxicology report should, at some point, become part of the official autopsy report--the outcome of one would be vital to the other, or it seems so to me.

 

[OldSteve]

Question - has a comparison of the three women been made that would show -

Age
Height & weight
Hair Color
Picture of each
Mental problems?
Phyiscal problems?
Financial problems?
Working?
Married/divorced/children/pets/other dependents
Date, Day of the Week and time they went missing.
Last know place they were seen and by whom.
Date, Day of week and time they were found.
Items found with victim
Items left at home
Items reported missing
Lenght of time before cause of death announced

Okay, those are some things that come to mind... please anyone?

 

[Truth Prevails]

Question - has a comparison of the three women been made that would show -

Age
Height & weight
Hair Color
Picture of each
Mental problems?
Phyiscal problems?
Financial problems?
Working?
Married/divorced/children/pets/other dependents
Date, Day of the Week and time they went missing.
Last know place they were seen and by whom.
Date, Day of week and time they were found.
Items found with victim
Items left at home
Items reported missing
Lenght of time before cause of death announced

Okay, those are some things that come to mind... please anyone?

I would be pleased to put something together from the info we have.

For example, I never could find a weight for Yeonhee; but understanding a few things might be missing--I think it is a great idea to put it all together in one comment.

It shouldn't take me too long.

It would be nice to compare notes, as well--so if anyone wants to add any info they have; maybe we could fill in some of the blanks for each other.

 

[OldSteve]

I would be pleased to put something together from the info we have.

For example, I never could find a weight for Yeonhee; but understanding a few things might be missing--I think it is a great idea to put it all together in one comment.

It shouldn't take me too long.

It would be nice to compare notes, as well--so if anyone wants to add any info they have; maybe we could fill in some of the blanks for each other.

Thanks Truth... and yes, if anyone can add details to this.. doesn't have to be perfect...

 

[margarita25]

yall rock!

 

[Trackergd]

Old Steve asked me to take a look at this thread...and I read every post.

If the dogs used were "air scent" dogs, the entire exercise was useless as they only operate from an airborne scent still being given off by the subject and carried by air currents. If the dogs used were "ground scent" dogs, the chances of identifying a particular scent go up quite a bit, but contamination by auto exhaust, other human scents and animal scents can mask or diminish the subject scent, more so as time passes. Rain and weather conditions also degrade the scent.

After looking at the maps and data you all have put together, I think the statistical probability is weighed more towards these three cases being related, than the chances of three individual tragedies. I suspect it is a quick grab with no option for struggle and the deed is done quickly. If we ever get a detailed autopsy report, I suspect it will say the water degraded or eliminated any DNA evidence of rape. If I were to give a semi educated guess at this point, I suspect it is a serial killer, and I think he drowns them either during or before the rape and it is part of his sexual release. No guess if there is a small boat involved or not, but I would be looking hard at the tour boats and crews if it were me.

The jury is out in my mind as to whether he is local or comes to town every six moths as part of his occupation.

Hope that helped Steve!

 

[Truth Prevails]

AGE:

Shelby: 20
Yeonhee: 45
Genevieve: 19


HEIGHT & WEIGHT:

Shelby: 5’4”; 110 lbs., slim build
Yeonhee: 5’4”
Genevieve: 5’7” to 5’8”; 120 lbs.


HAIR COLOR:

Shelby: Hazel eyes and shoulder length brown hair.
Yeonhee: Short, dark hair.
Genevieve: Hazel eyes and long brown hair


PICTURE OF EACH:

Shelby:

2011

Yeonhee:

Genevieve:

MENTAL PROBLEMS:

Shelby: No confirmation of any. Her friend said she was doing well after having lost a baby the previous month.
Yeonhee: Currently taking her prescribed prescription medication for depression.
Genevieve: Some anxiety problems years ago.


PHYSICAL PROBLEMS:

Shelby: Nothing known.
Yeonhee: Nothing known.
Genevieve: Nothing known.


FINANCIAL PROBLEMS:

Shelby: Maybe. She had a 3 year old son who lived with her mother. She was staying in a shelter offering assistance to young, single mothers.
Yeonhee: Her husband put up a $50,000.00 reward for information leading to her whereabouts.
Genevieve: She was still living at home and attending high school. A struggling student, you might say—just like thousands of others. She even had a job interview lined up for the next day.


WORKING:

Shelby: Nothing mentioned.
Yeonhee: Nothing mentioned.
Genevieve: Was working at a daycare through a high-school program.


MARRIED/DIVORCED/CHILDREN/PETS/OTHER DEPENDENTS:

Shelby: A three year old son whom her mother was currently caring for.
Yeonhee: Married; residing with her husband; and had a daughter in Grade 10.
Genevieve: Pets are possible, but no to the others.


DATE, DAY OF THE WEEK, AND TIME THEY WENT MISSING:

Shelby: Saturday night—around midnight; September 22, 2012.
Yeonhee: Monday morning—last seen at around 6:00 am; April 22, 2013.
Genevieve: Sunday afternoon—last confirmed sighting at around 4:30 pm; September 29, 2013.


LAST KNOWN PLACE THEY WERE SEEN AND BY WHOM:

Shelby: Last seen in the uptown area; no word on who last saw her.
Yeonhee: Last seen on Prince St., west; no word on who last saw her.
Genevieve: Last seen heading toward the west side and had just passed the BoAz Restaurant; no word on who last saw her.


DATE, DAY OF WEEK, AND TIME THEY WERE FOUND:

Shelby: Found at Long Wharf on Saturday, October 13, 2012, around the noon hour—21 days later.
Yeonhee: Found at Long Wharf on Monday, June 24, 2013, at 8:47 am—63 days later.
Genevieve: Found at Anthony’s Cove on Saturday, October 2, 2013, at 2:40 pm—34 days later.


ITEMS FOUND WITH VICTIM:

Shelby: Nothing has been reported in this regard.
Yeonhee: Nothing has been reported in this regard.
Genevieve: With much thanks and appreciation to Gen’s sister, we know Gen was found with her over-the-shoulder bag and it still contained her passport.


ITEMS LEFT AT HOME:

Shelby: She left her purse at a friend’s apartment/house; but took her wallet and her cell phone with her.
Yeonhee: Her cell phone and her depression medication were left at home. She may have been carrying a black leather back pack.
Genevieve: She was returning home after staying overnight with friends, so everything was probably left home except what she had taken with her for the night. We know she had her cell phone with her at the time of her disappearance.


ITEMS REPORTED MISSING:

Shelby: Reported that she had her wallet and cell phone with her when she left to go to the uptown area.
Yeonhee: Reported that she may have been carrying a small, black, backpack when she left her home that morning.
Genevieve: No word on whether her cell phone was ever found.


LENGTH OF TIME BEFORE CAUSE OF DEATH WAS ANNOUNCED:

Shelby: On October 17, 2012—4 days after her remains washed ashore at Long Wharf—Quote: “...Foul play is not suspected; no further details will be released. ...”
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/body-found-in-saint-john-harbour-identified-1.1226320

Yeonhee: On July 12, 2013—18 days after her remains washed ashore at Long Wharf—Quote: “...An autopsy determined there was no foul play ...”
http://metronews.ca/news/canada/736585/n-b-police-identify-body-found-in-harbour/

Genevieve: We are still officially awaiting the pathologist’s report, (who is apparently awaiting the toxicology report.) Although, on Nov. 4, 2013—2 days after her remains washed ashore at Anthony's Cove—Quote: “Police do not suspect foul play in the death of New Brunswick teenager Genevieve Cormier, but are not ruling it out until they have the autopsy report.
...
“We are awaiting the pathologist’s report to conclude the investigation.” Saint John Police Force Sgt. Jay Henderson told CBC News on Monday.”
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-b...ected-in-death-of-genevieve-cormier-1.2355421


And two small maps which show striking similarities between the three cases, created from facts above:

The orange marker is where Shelby's remains were found. The blue marker is where Yeonhee's remains were found--very close to six months apart. Thanks to WS'er LoyalSleuth for doing this map!
Link to full size version: https://mapsengine.google.com/map/viewer?mid=z88SNeFUr_v8.kBv0MT5KhhHk

The yellow arrows mark the path Yeonhee was known to take; and the red arrows mark the path Genevieve was known to take. Same path, but they were going in different directions--with a separation of about 6 months in between their respective final journeys. Interesting to note, Gen's disappearance was nearly one year to the day from Shelby's disappearance.
Link to full size version: http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=rj8p1s9gsdg5&lvl=19.3&dir=173.89&sty=o&form=LMLTSN

 

[Truth Prevails]

Old Steve asked me to take a look at this thread...and I read every post.

If the dogs used were "air scent" dogs, the entire exercise was useless as they only operate from an airborne scent still being given off by the subject and carried by air currents. If the dogs used were "ground scent" dogs, the chances of identifying a particular scent go up quite a bit, but contamination by auto exhaust, other human scents and animal scents can mask or diminish the subject scent, more so as time passes. Rain and weather conditions also degrade the scent.

After looking at the maps and data you all have put together, I think the statistical probability is weighed more towards these three cases being related, than the chances of three individual tragedies. I suspect it is a quick grab with no option for struggle and the deed is done quickly. If we ever get a detailed autopsy report, I suspect it will say the water degraded or eliminated any DNA evidence of rape. If I were to give a semi educated guess at this point, I suspect it is a serial killer, and I think he drowns them either during or before the rape and it is part of his sexual release. No guess if there is a small boat involved or not, but I would be looking hard at the tour boats and crews if it were me.

The jury is out in my mind as to whether he is local or comes to town every six moths as part of his occupation.

Hope that helped Steve!

Oh, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on this!

I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. :loveyou:

I had been trying to fit a vehicle into this, but a small boat could be at play here, too. And there are many in the Saint John area.

Very interesting info about the dogs. The dogs that we are apparently not allowed to know even the date they had them searching.

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

wow, thanks for that comparison, TruthPrevails. Must have been some work - so nice to be reminded of the passion and compassion we have here at WS! Now, what can we draw from that model, if anything? See any connections aside from the very obvious?

Been following since this was posted, but have not had anything productive to add. You are all an inspiration though.

 

[Truth Prevails]

wow, thanks for that comparison, TruthPrevails. Must have been some work - so nice to be reminded of the passion and compassion we have here at WS! Now, what can we draw from that model, if anything? See any connections aside from the very obvious?

Been following since this was posted, but have not had anything productive to add. You are all an inspiration though.

Thanks for dropping in!

I had been working on it off and on, so I was thrilled when I saw Steve's idea.

I just had a few things to gather, but it was basically my pleasure.

BBM - exactly.

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

I was hoping for some obvious pattern to stand out... phooey.

 

[OldSteve]

Wow! Allot to go over - while I do, want to thank you Trackergd for coming over to this thread and reading all the posts! (omg! that's allot)! As always, your insights most appreciated!

Thank you Truth for putting together the comparison info on these three women!

Have to read and think, and will comment...

 

[jillybean51]

Thanks Truth.....wonderful job done on the comparisons! Your dedication is admirable!

 

[Truth Prevails]

I was hoping for some obvious pattern to stand out... phooey.

Now that would be great, but we have practically no information to work with. Most of the articles are pretty slim.

We are talking about a relatively small city, where murder--or suicide, or accidental death--is not an every day occurrence.

So, three suspicious deaths within a one year interval seems like a very alarming pattern.

They were all females; all disappeared without a trace; all three bodies spent time in the water before their remains were found.

There was no reported area searched for Shelby, but the same area was heavily searched for both Yeonhee and Genevieve.

All three victims were from the west side of Saint John. Yeonhee and Genevieve currently resided there; Shelby had moved to the area when she was only a child, but was currently staying at a shelter on Coburg St.

There are a few other small things, but I know they are also not the type of thing you were looking for.

Just for interest sake, I'll mention a few that come to mind quickly.

Gen and Shelby both went to Saint John High School, at least at overlapping times. Add to this the fact that they were both raised on the west side, there would be a high probability that they knew each other or had friends in common.

They both spent a lot of time texting and Facebooking with their friends, although that is most likely a universal habit amongst young people.

Shelby went missing from the uptown area on a Saturday night in 2012, and we know Gen was in the uptown area also on Saturday night, but a year plus a week later.

I noticed that both Gen and Shelby had hazel eyes. Gen was a little taller than Shelby, but they both had similar builds.

And then Yeonhee--precious Yeonhee. She had only been in Canada for less than two years. Her and her husband frequently walked that path--they lived very nearby it. Mr. Woo, Yeonhee's husband, said that their daughter was in Grade 10. It is entirely possible that she goes to Saint John High.

For Yeonhee, mostly all I see from what we know is a vulnerable woman walking alone at an opportune time and place--6:00 am on a Monday morning in April.

As far as patterns from the possible killer--other than it looks like he may possibly know something about tide currents; and may be very familiar with the west side of the city--we have nothing.

 

[Truth Prevails]

Thanks Truth.....wonderful job done on the comparisons! Your dedication is admirable!

Thank you, Jilly!

If you think of anything else, please jump right in with it.

 

[OldSteve]

Now that would be great, but we have practically no information to work with. Most of the articles are pretty slim.

We are talking about a relatively small city, where murder--or suicide, or accidental death--is not an every day occurrence.

So, three suspicious deaths within a one year interval seems like a very alarming pattern.

They were all females; all disappeared without a trace; all three bodies spent time in the water before their remains were found.

There was no reported area searched for Shelby, but the same area was heavily searched for both Yeonhee and Genevieve.

All three victims were from the west side of Saint John. Yeonhee and Genevieve currently resided there; Shelby had moved to the area when she was only a child, but was currently staying at a shelter on Coburg St.

There are a few other small things, but I know they are also not the type of thing you were looking for.

Just for interest sake, I'll mention a few that come to mind quickly.

Gen and Shelby both went to Saint John High School, at least at overlapping times. Add to this the fact that they were both raised on the west side, there would be a high probability that they knew each other or had friends in common.

They both spent a lot of time texting and Facebooking with their friends, although that is most likely a universal habit amongst young people.

Shelby went missing from the uptown area on a Saturday night in 2012, and we know Gen was in the uptown area also on Saturday night, but a year plus a week later.

I noticed that both Gen and Shelby had hazel eyes. Gen was a little taller than Shelby, but they both had similar builds.

And then Yeonhee--precious Yeonhee. She had only been in Canada for less than two years. Her and her husband frequently walked that path--they lived very nearby it. Mr. Woo, Yeonhee's husband, said that their daughter was in Grade 10. It is entirely possible that she goes to Saint John High.

For Yeonhee, mostly all I see from what we know is a vulnerable woman walking alone at an opportune time and place--6:00 am on a Monday morning in April.

As far as patterns from the possible killer--other than it looks like he may possibly know something about tide currents; and may be very familiar with the west side of the city--we have nothing.

Allot of excellent work and effort on your part Truth in all you've done!
I highlighted kep points in your above - I'm trying to add to your comparison list, wow! you did allot of work there!! -

 

[OldSteve]

Updating Truth Prevails' excellent compairison listing with info from her last post.


Shelby: 20
Yeonhee: 45
Genevieve: 19


HEIGHT & WEIGHT:

Shelby: 5’4”; 110 lbs., slim build
Yeonhee: 5’4”
Genevieve: 5’7” to 5’8”; 120 lbs.


HAIR COLOR:

Shelby: Hazel eyes and shoulder length brown hair.
Yeonhee: Short, dark hair.
Genevieve: Hazel eyes and long brown hair


PICTURE OF EACH:

Shelby:

2011

Yeonhee:

Genevieve:

MENTAL PROBLEMS:

Shelby: No confirmation of any. Her friend said she was doing well after having lost a baby the previous month.
Yeonhee: Currently taking her prescribed prescription medication for depression.
Genevieve: Some anxiety problems years ago.


PHYSICAL PROBLEMS:

Shelby: Nothing known.
Yeonhee: Nothing known.
Genevieve: Nothing known.


FINANCIAL PROBLEMS:

Shelby: Maybe. She had a 3 year old son who lived with her mother. She was staying in a shelter offering assistance to young, single mothers.
Yeonhee: Her husband put up a $50,000.00 reward for information leading to her whereabouts.
Genevieve: She was still living at home and attending high school. A struggling student, you might say—just like thousands of others. She even had a job interview lined up for the next day.


WORKING:

Shelby: Nothing mentioned.
Yeonhee: Nothing mentioned.
Genevieve: Was working at a daycare through a high-school program.


MARRIED/DIVORCED/CHILDREN/PETS/OTHER DEPENDENTS:

Shelby: A three year old son whom her mother was currently caring for.
Yeonhee: Married; residing with her husband; and had a daughter in Grade 10.
Genevieve: Pets are possible, but no to the others.


DATE, DAY OF THE WEEK, AND TIME THEY WENT MISSING:

Shelby: Saturday night—around midnight; September 22, 2012.
Yeonhee: Monday morning—last seen at around 6:00 am; April 22, 2013.
Genevieve: Sunday afternoon—last confirmed sighting at around 4:30 pm; September 29, 2013.
Note: Shelby went missing from the uptown area on a Saturday night in 2012.
Genevieve was in the uptown area also on a Saturday night, but a year plus a week later.


LAST KNOWN PLACE THEY WERE SEEN AND BY WHOM:

Shelby: Last seen in the uptown area; no word on who last saw her.
Yeonhee: Last seen on Prince St., west; no word on who last saw her.
Genevieve: Last seen heading toward the west side and had just passed the BoAz Restaurant; no word on who last saw her.


DATE, DAY OF WEEK, AND TIME THEY WERE FOUND:

Shelby: Found at Long Wharf on Saturday, October 13, 2012, around the noon hour—21 days later.
Yeonhee: Found at Long Wharf on Monday, June 24, 2013, at 8:47 am—63 days later.
Genevieve: Found at Anthony’s Cove on Saturday, October 2, 2013, at 2:40 pm—34 days later.


ITEMS FOUND WITH VICTIM:

Shelby: Nothing has been reported in this regard.
Yeonhee: Nothing has been reported in this regard.
Genevieve: With much thanks and appreciation to Gen’s sister, we know Gen was found with her over-the-shoulder bag and it still contained her passport.


ITEMS LEFT AT HOME:

Shelby: She left her purse at a friend’s apartment/house; but took her wallet and her cell phone with her.
Yeonhee: Her cell phone and her depression medication were left at home. She may have been carrying a black leather back pack.
Genevieve: She was returning home after staying overnight with friends, so everything was probably left home except what she had taken with her for the night. We know she had her cell phone with her at the time of her disappearance.


AREAS IN COMMON

Genevieve and Shelby overlapping attendance Saint John High School. Perhaps
friends in common?
All three women were fromwest side of Saint John.
All three had walked the same pathway.


ITEMS REPORTED MISSING:

Shelby: Reported that she had her wallet and cell phone with her when she left to go to the uptown area.
Yeonhee: Reported that she may have been carrying a small, black, backpack when she left her home that morning.
Genevieve: No word on whether her cell phone was ever found.


LENGTH OF TIME BEFORE CAUSE OF DEATH WAS ANNOUNCED:

Shelby: On October 17, 2012—4 days after her remains washed ashore at Long Wharf—Quote: “...Foul play is not suspected; no further details will be released. ...”
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/body-found-in-saint-john-harbour-identified-1.1226320

Yeonhee: On July 12, 2013—18 days after her remains washed ashore at Long Wharf—Quote: “...An autopsy determined there was no foul play ...”
http://metronews.ca/news/canada/736585/n-b-police-identify-body-found-in-harbour/

Genevieve: We are still officially awaiting the pathologist’s report, (who is apparently awaiting the toxicology report.) Although, on Nov. 4, 2013—2 days after her remains washed ashore at Anthony's Cove—Quote: “Police do not suspect foul play in the death of New Brunswick teenager Genevieve Cormier, but are not ruling it out until they have the autopsy report.
...
“We are awaiting the pathologist’s report to conclude the investigation.” Saint John Police Force Sgt. Jay Henderson told CBC News on Monday.”
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-b...ected-in-death-of-genevieve-cormier-1.2355421


And two small maps which show striking similarities between the three cases, created from facts above:

The orange marker is where Shelby's remains were found. The blue marker is where Yeonhee's remains were found--very close to six months apart. Thanks to WS'er LoyalSleuth for doing this map!
Link to full size version: https://mapsengine.google.com/map/viewer?mid=z88SNeFUr_v8.kBv0MT5KhhHk

The yellow arrows mark the path Yeonhee was known to take; and the red arrows mark the path Genevieve was known to take. Same path, but they were going in different directions--with a separation of about 6 months in between their respective final journeys. Interesting to note, Gen's disappearance was nearly one year to the day from Shelby's disappearance.
Link to full size version: http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=rj8p1s9gsdg5&lvl=19.3&dir=173.89&sty=o&form=LMLTSN[/QUOTE]

 

[Truth Prevails]

Updating Truth Prevails' excellent compairison listing with info from her last post.

All three had walked the same pathway.

Above respectfully snipped by me.

Oops--nope. Just two--Yeonhee and Genevieve.

Not much is really know about Shelby's last reported location.

Earlier in the evening, she was at a friends house on Garden St., and that is where she left her purse, (taking her wallet and cell phone with her.)

We don't know if she would have walked from there to the uptown area. Garden Street is within walking distance, but I don't think I would walk that area alone late at night. (Even many years ago.)

Or she may have walked with someone.

It seems to have been confirmed that she was at least later seen in the uptown area--but that is all we have on her.

I can't find any info on any ground searches done for her. I think they may have really believed she ran away in the initial stages.

We don't even know who reported her missing or when, but they did have missing person's bulletins out within a few day.

 

[J Block]

Old Steve asked me to take a look at this thread...and I read every post.

If the dogs used were "air scent" dogs, the entire exercise was useless as they only operate from an airborne scent still being given off by the subject and carried by air currents. If the dogs used were "ground scent" dogs, the chances of identifying a particular scent go up quite a bit, but contamination by auto exhaust, other human scents and animal scents can mask or diminish the subject scent, more so as time passes. Rain and weather conditions also degrade the scent.

After looking at the maps and data you all have put together, I think the statistical probability is weighed more towards these three cases being related, than the chances of three individual tragedies. I suspect it is a quick grab with no option for struggle and the deed is done quickly. If we ever get a detailed autopsy report, I suspect it will say the water degraded or eliminated any DNA evidence of rape. If I were to give a semi educated guess at this point, I suspect it is a serial killer, and I think he drowns them either during or before the rape and it is part of his sexual release. No guess if there is a small boat involved or not, but I would be looking hard at the tour boats and crews if it were me.

The jury is out in my mind as to whether he is local or comes to town every six moths as part of his occupation.

Hope that helped Steve!

Your suspicions sound uncannily familiar to the early-on ideas being tossed around in the LISK case. Water, boat, seasonal, etc.

 

[swedie]

Wow you people are amazing! Truth you have certainly contributed a lot of information and great sleuthing. Bless your heart. I've been reading off and on, a bit behind but I admire your perseverance in seeking the truth and justice as I for one do not believe Gen's death was what LE are saying. Too many coincidental circumstances in these cases. Sorry I don't have anything else to offer at this time but just want to say thank you to all of you, from the bottom of my heart for keeping this case in the forefront. The truth will prevail. MOO.