Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #19

[MistyWaters]

If he really does have a delusional disorder as was alleged, not complying with treatment is pretty much textbook behavior. And it raises the question of how much awareness he has of his actions and their consequences. But, of course, if he does have a delusional disorder or other serious mental illness, that raises the question of whether it violated journalistic ethics to interview him at all.

Everyone had the right of freedom of speech and no doubt reporters were literally salivating to interview AS because it’s very unusual, in Canada at least, for a parent of an accused murderer to make themselves so available to the media.

On that topic, I wonder did AS contact the media or did they contact him? Because it can’t have been too easy to track him down considering he doesn’t have a permanent address.

It’s as if AS became a one-man a media fixation. Opinions are formed by what people in Port Alberni have said about B’s relationship with his family but not a peep in the media from anyone commenting on AS and his fatherly relationship with his son.

Just my opinion, there’s huge pieces of missing information. And I’m not convinced the RCMP final report will focus on domestic issues much at all because their only commitment is to inform the public of the reasons they’re satisfied no other suspects need be sought in the tragic murder of the three victims. It will be purely factual, not speculative. JMO

 

[Arizona 123]

It is interesting to note that it appears the video surveillance provided by LE to news outlets was not actually found by Police through their own investigations, but found by the store owner who contacted Police. There would be more video surveillance showing BC and KM's pathway, but if store/petrol stop owners have not searched their security videos and found it and LE has not made time to check footage along possible routes, their actual pathway may never be known. I am wondering if KM and BS resorted to using cash so as to not leave an electronic transaction trail, but ran out of money before they intended. It is pointless to flee across the country leaving an electronic transaction trail as you go (or a trail of burning vehicles directly linked to you)! If police were able to follow electronic transactions, they would have known the route KM and BS took, but they were instead relying on public reports of sightings. If someone had not approached the attending police and told them they thought they saw a body 2 k's down the road from KM and BS's burning truck, would the burning vehicle have been put out and LD's body left lying on the side of the road until somebody else reported it? LD must have been killed very close to the truck being burned, or someone else would have seen and reported his body previously. Police were led to the area near KM and BS's bodies following reports from a member of the public (the sleeping bag downstream) followed by a helicopter search, then finding a damaged boat. I cannot believe that there has been nothing at all said about the man reported to have been arguing with LF and CD sometime close to the time they were killed (Yes, Police followed it up and he wasn't involved, or, no, we just didn't bother to follow him up)! I feel that if KM and BS hadn't totally and repeatedly led police to themselves by the repeated vehicle burnings (obviously they didn't learn from previous experiences!), and two of the murder victims hadn't been international tourists, the (alleged) killers would never have been found. Very much like the numerous murder victims on the "highway of tears".
- Link in which it is stated that the store owner saw KM and BS on her surveillance video and contacted police:
Northern B.C. murder suspects inside Meadow Lake Co-op store | Vancouver Sun - Thủ thuật máy tính - Chia sẽ kinh nghiệm sử dụng máy tính - Kienthucmang

I'm conflicted on this. As you point out, they did indeed leave burning vehicles, and IMHO, had they not done so in the case of the professor's murder, they would be unlikely to have ever been caught - especially if they had not stolen his car. However, as for leaving an electronic trail, that's where I'm conflicted. Common sense would dictate that if you're on the run, pay cash. Common sense would also dictate that you don't leave your truck burning near one of your murder scenes. The fact they did that latter makes me rather dubious that they took much care in their flight. In fact, their "escape and evasions" was so utterly awful on so many levels that I honestly suspect they were trying to lead the RCMP to them.

An alternative explanation though is they might not have had credit or debit cards, and just usually paid cash. I do have credit cards, but I most often pay cash, especially for small purchases (gas, food, etc), especially when traveling. And another alternative explanation; maybe RCMP was tracking where they had been, because they were using their own cards - or maybe those of their victims. RCMP would IMHO be well advised not to mention it if this had been the case.

I hope the report clears up some of these lingering puzzles.

 

[sandbar]

RCMP would IMHO be well advised not to mention it if this had been the case.

I'm not sure what you mean. Can you please clarify?

 

[NJSleuth91]

A month after the manhunt for two murder suspects ended, here’s what we still don’t know | The Star

"Police have said they believe forensic analysis into the firearms found alongside McLeod and Schmegelsky will provide “definitive” evidence that the pair killed Deese and Fowler, who were found shot to death near Liard Hot Springs. Shoihet told Star Vancouver this week that police “have no reason to believe there are any other suspects.”

As it stands, police have not told the public why Schmegelsky and McLeod became suspects in the double homicide in the first place. When Leonard Dyck’s body was found four days after those of Deese and Fowler, police initially said there was no indication of a connection between the two scenes. Something changed that view, but it is unclear what that is."

 

[NJSleuth91]

Everyone had the right of freedom of speech and no doubt reporters were literally salivating to interview AS because it’s very unusual, in Canada at least, for a parent of an accused murderer to make themselves so available to the media.

Freedom of speech isn't the same as journalistic ethics and standards. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

Opinions are formed by what people in Port Alberni have said about B’s relationship with his family but not a peep in the media from anyone commenting on AS and his fatherly relationship with his son.

That's probably because Bryer's dad didn't live in Port Alberni, so nobody from there knew much about him. In fact I don't think he ever lived there. Bryer's mom moved there after the divorce.

And I’m not convinced the RCMP final report will focus on domestic issues much at all because their only commitment is to inform the public of the reasons they’re satisfied no other suspects need be sought in the tragic murder of the three victims. It will be purely factual, not speculative. JMO

We shall see. Especially if there's a public inquiry. The RCMP talked specifically about how they were planning to figure out motive and that they were using behavioral analysts. That includes the history that led up to the motive. So clearly the report is not just going to be all gun ballistics and stuff like that.

 

[Trooper]

I'm conflicted on this. As you point out, they did indeed leave burning vehicles, and IMHO, had they not done so in the case of the professor's murder, they would be unlikely to have ever been caught - especially if they had not stolen his car. However, as for leaving an electronic trail, that's where I'm conflicted. Common sense would dictate that if you're on the run, pay cash. Common sense would also dictate that you don't leave your truck burning near one of your murder scenes. The fact they did that latter makes me rather dubious that they took much care in their flight. In fact, their "escape and evasions" was so utterly awful on so many levels that I honestly suspect they were trying to lead the RCMP to them.

edited by me for brevity


They had not left home very long ago. A matter of days, not years, really, and in every sense they both were 'babes in the woods'.. they had not long left homes that provided meals, washed laundry, unlimited hot water, running toilets, unlimited toilet paper, food on the table, dishes in the dishwasher, clean clothes in the cupboard.. all the things that without them, make life on the road damn near unsupportable and mighty uncomfortable.

They were vicious babes, stupid babes but babes in the woods, nonetheless, with a very small understanding of how the world works, and what part they are meant to play in it, how other people run their lives, they were inexperienced in life in just about every respect.

I don't think they had an inkling of how much more there was to living 'off the land' and 'playing survivor' in the woods, when you pack up and come home to a cooked meal and a bed made, it's a whole lot different trying to live out of a van. And then, they try murder for the hell of it. And now, they are fugitives with the might and power of the RCMP right on their backsides, outlaws in every sense of the word, outside the law of the land and outside the law of humanity, and on a dead end road in a stolen vehicle, with very little ammunition, and still inexperienced in most of life's standard operating procedures.

Common sense was , I suspect the very last thing they experienced, possibly at the time of loading their handguns for the grand finale. Finally, and as it happened , terminally, a big huge dose of ordinary common sense.

 

[Trooper]

I don't think the RCMP is going to wade thru the 'history' of Kam or Bryer to try and calculate motive, concentrating mainly on method and means , which is the purpose of a report.

Unless they both, independently have made a pre mortem statement of intent. ..

It would be the equivalent of the RCMP reading tea leaves and chicken entrails to try and deduct a motive,, a reason, based on 'history'.

One would have to know, definitively, how they saw their history, not how anyone else saw their history. Such as it is.

 

[FactFinder3000]

And I find it the absolute height of arrogance that they felt that entitled to make requests for their remains.

What I find amazing is that the requests were sane enough that the RCMP actually felt they needed to be shared with the families. You'd think Bryer would ask to be buried with his Hitler knife or something like that.

 

[Zella]

What I find amazing is that the requests were sane enough that the RCMP actually felt they needed to be shared with the families. You'd think Bryer would ask to be buried with his Hitler knife or something like that.

I've thought that, too. I assume if whatever they requested had been really outlandish, RCMP would have just avoided releasing any information about their final wishes to the families, under the argument the videos were not legally wills. MOO

 

[Arizona 123]

I'm not sure what you mean. Can you please clarify?

I was thinking that if RCMP was tracking the use of any cards K or B had, RCMP wouldn't have been wise to broadcast that fact at the time - why let the suspects know that they are on giving them location leads?

edited by me for brevity

They had not left home very long ago. A matter of days, not years, really, and in every sense they both were 'babes in the woods'.. they had not long left homes that provided meals, washed laundry, unlimited hot water, running toilets, unlimited toilet paper, food on the table, dishes in the dishwasher, clean clothes in the cupboard.. all the things that without them, make life on the road damn near unsupportable and mighty uncomfortable.

They were vicious babes, stupid babes but babes in the woods, nonetheless, with a very small understanding of how the world works, and what part they are meant to play in it, how other people run their lives, they were inexperienced in life in just about every respect.

I don't think they had an inkling of how much more there was to living 'off the land' and 'playing survivor' in the woods, when you pack up and come home to a cooked meal and a bed made, it's a whole lot different trying to live out of a van. And then, they try murder for the hell of it. And now, they are fugitives with the might and power of the RCMP right on their backsides, outlaws in every sense of the word, outside the law of the land and outside the law of humanity, and on a dead end road in a stolen vehicle, with very little ammunition, and still inexperienced in most of life's standard operating procedures.

Common sense was , I suspect the very last thing they experienced, possibly at the time of loading their handguns for the grand finale. Finally, and as it happened , terminally, a big huge dose of ordinary common sense.

I agree in the main, but I suspect there's more to it than that - they were 18 and 19, so surely should have had some notion, especially if they'd been camping before, or gone on car trips before. I took trips when I was younger than that, no big deal - especially if they, unlike me at that age, had a little extra $, enough to stop at a burger place for some food. If I'd had a camper van like theirs, I'd have thought I was in heaven. As it was, I had to count every penny to make sure I had enough for gas to get home (I was driving solo coast to coast in the US). The closest I came to turning to crime on my journey was I really wanted to kill the dang pack rat that chewed up my wiring while parked one night.

So, I'm not sure I can chalk up much to their naivete. If anything, I suspect that there was also at least a dose of heavy duty stupidity plus, of course, whatever reason they were apparently okay with brutal murder. However, even if they were both naive and stupid to a massive degree, I cannot fathom burning their own truck near a body unless they wanted to be discovered as the killers.

 

[Trooper]

I was thinking that if RCMP was tracking the use of any cards K or B had, RCMP wouldn't have been wise to broadcast that fact at the time - why let the suspects know that they are on giving them location leads?



I agree in the main, but I suspect there's more to it than that - they were 18 and 19, so surely should have had some notion, especially if they'd been camping before, or gone on car trips before. I took trips when I was younger than that, no big deal - especially if they, unlike me at that age, had a little extra $, enough to stop at a burger place for some food. If I'd had a camper van like theirs, I'd have thought I was in heaven. As it was, I had to count every penny to make sure I had enough for gas to get home (I was driving solo coast to coast in the US). The closest I came to turning to crime on my journey was I really wanted to kill the dang pack rat that chewed up my wiring while parked one night.

So, I'm not sure I can chalk up much to their naivete. If anything, I suspect that there was also at least a dose of heavy duty stupidity plus, of course, whatever reason they were apparently okay with brutal murder. However, even if they were both naive and stupid to a massive degree, I cannot fathom burning their own truck near a body unless they wanted to be discovered as the killers.

No one has mentioned if they went on long camping overnights, or even school excursions, I, and my contemporaries had by 18,19 been at boarding school since age 9 and then school excursions to Japan, China, India, South Africa, and New Zealand, and a school year 10 and 11 boarding with families in France and Denmark. They don't appear to have moved out of their immediate locale in all their lives. Is that typical of Canadian schoolkids?..

So I don't see K and B as being anywhere near loaded up with travel smarts, or even general savvy on how to get along .. ( you go along , is how ) they struck me very quickly as really a bit simple minded. Particularly the burning of their own truck near the Prof's body. This has all the hallmarks of two teens right off the compass of just ordinary common sense, the capacity to look realistically and make a judgement that has reason and logic to it. I can't fathom it either. I can only put it down to some sort of long term congenital stupidity, the kind that has no cure.

Perhaps the reality of a 'new' car ( aka Prof Dyck's RAV) so sent them into a spin of mechanical lust that they just lost all sense of their own life preservation. It does happen.

 

[bcgirl]

Jennifer O’Brien’s very emotional appeal comes to mind.

As well as Sharlene Bosma and Tori Stafford's parents.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

No one has mentioned if they went on long camping overnights, or even school excursions, I, and my contemporaries had by 18,19 been at boarding school since age 9 and then school excursions to Japan, China, India, South Africa, and New Zealand, and a school year 10 and 11 boarding with families in France and Denmark. They don't appear to have moved out of their immediate locale in all their lives. Is that typical of Canadian schoolkids?..

So I don't see K and B as being anywhere near loaded up with travel smarts, or even general savvy on how to get along .. ( you go along , is how ) they struck me very quickly as really a bit simple minded. Particularly the burning of their own truck near the Prof's body. This has all the hallmarks of two teens right off the compass of just ordinary common sense, the capacity to look realistically and make a judgement that has reason and logic to it. I can't fathom it either. I can only put it down to some sort of long term congenital stupidity, the kind that has no cure.

Perhaps the reality of a 'new' car ( aka Prof Dyck's RAV) so sent them into a spin of mechanical lust that they just lost all sense of their own life preservation. It does happen.

They may have panicked because one of them realized the RAV4 was picked up on CCTV or a passing vehicle's DVR and decided to chance it and escape on foot. I imagine them being hyped up by this stage, burning the vehicle was stupid.
They may have intended to carjack someone but luckily, for whatever reason, they couldn't manage it. Just some rambling thoughts.


I wonder if FM/AM radio could've been picked up on the car radio in the RAV4? They might have heard news announcements about the discovery of L and C's bodies, and that they were first said to be missing, later updated to suspects.

Could someone local chime in about radio reception in the area K & B travelled?

 

[KR72]

Could someone local chime in about radio reception in the area K & B travelled?

I don't know about northern BC, but in northern Manitoba Thompson has several radio stations that cover large areas, the area in and around Gillam would have radio, so would Split Lake. Coverage up north may be spotty in places, but KM and BS would have been able to hear the radio along the provincial roads they traveled, give or take a few areas where they may have lost the signal.

 

[copkid]

I wonder if FM/AM radio could've been picked up on the car radio in the RAV4? They might have heard news announcements about the discovery of L and C's bodies, and that they were first said to be missing, later updated to suspects.

Could someone local chime in about radio reception in the area K & B travelled?

I am guessing they likely had radio reception from Deese Lake to Gilliam, if they chose to listen to the radio.

I feel BS/KM would have heard the early reports about the discovery of Lucas & Chynna's bodies as they were still in the general area (Deese Lake) at that time.

They would have heard about the discovery of Leonard Dyck's body and their burning truck.

They should have heard the reports that they, themselves, were now considered missing.

They should have heard the requests for them to contact family or LE.

They would have heard the RCMP stating there did not appear to be any connection between the two crime scenes.

They burnt the Rav4 on July 22nd and it appears they immediately headed into the dense bush outside Gilliam.

They were not charged with LDs murder and named as suspects in Lucas & Chynna's murder until July 23rd.

July 23rd they were in the bush with their phone off or no cell coverage, and likely no radio.

I am not convinced they ever heard that charges had been laid against them, or that they were suspects in the tourist couple's murder. JMO

I suspect this may be a question we never have a definitive answer to, unless the recordings they made shed some light. JMO

 

[sandbar]

I don't know, I guess it's possible they listened to the radio but it seems like a few very small, and some mundane but critical "ifs" would have to fall into place...

IF Prof Dyck's radio, antenna, and speakers were working.
IF K&B re-tuned the radio stations as they travelled into and out of range (unless we think it's the same station across 3 provinces.)
IF K&B were tuned into the station at the right time to hear the news, unless there are 24-hour news stations across Canada's north...(anyone ever try to catch the weather forecast on a driving trip??? Can be very frustrating...the stars have to align properly.)
IF K&B thought of a radio station as a news source. This is the most unlikely to me. I'd bet my lunch they never once thought:
"Wonder what they're sayin' about us."
"Ya, let's check the CBC."

To my way of thinking, my attempt at trying to think like them, my past experiences with driving trips, it's possible, not probable..

Just me thinking out loud...

 

[MistyWaters]

I am guessing they likely had radio reception from Deese Lake to Gilliam.

I feel BS/KM would have heard the early reports about the discovery of Lucas & Chynna's bodies as they were still in the general area (Deese Lake) at that time.

They would have heard about the discovery of Leonard Dyck's body and their burning truck.

They should have heard the reports that they, themselves, were now considered missing.

They should have heard the requests for them to contact family or LE.

They burnt the Rav4 on July 22nd and it appears they immediately headed into the dense bush outside Gilliam.

They were not charged with LDs murder and named as suspects in Lucas & Chynna's murder until July 23rd.

July 23rd they were in the bush with their phone off or no cell coverage, and likely no radio.
I am not convinced they ever heard that charges had been laid against them, or that they were suspects in the tourist couple's murder. JMO

I suspect this may be a question we never have a definitive answer to, unless the recordings they made shed some light. JMO

Monday, July 22nd police first mentioned a possible connection between two missing men, a burnt truck and camper and all the deaths of all three victims. SM was already running rampant with allegations the two were responsible for the 3 murders so if they checked online at any of the free wifi locations of towns they passed through, they’d have a pretty good idea they were in the spotlight. Looking back, at no point in time did police mention the possibility the two were endangered, only missing with the possible connection to 3 homicides.

“On Monday, after previously saying there was nothing to indicate a link between these various incidents — which took place hundreds of kilometres apart — RCMP officials told reporters it was “possible” there was a connection and urged the public to be on alert....”
Northern B.C. residents on edge as police say link between three deaths, missing pair ‘possible’

 

[NJSleuth91]

I've thought that, too. I assume if whatever they requested had been really outlandish, RCMP would have just avoided releasing any information about their final wishes to the families, under the argument the videos were not legally wills. MOO

Exactly -- I don't think they were under a legal obligation to release it. And the fact that they showed it to multiple members of Bryer's family indicates that it wasn't just about the next of kin thing. Also, it's pretty obvious that the other members of Bryer's family didn't have to sign an NDA, because the information was leaked about the goodbye video within days.

A lot of people have assumed Bryer's dad leaked the information about the goodbye video, but that actually makes zero sense. He is specifically legally forbidden from contacting the other members of Bryer's family. If he didn't know already about what was on the video or where Bryer's remains were, then it's clear that he was never in contact with them. He likely found out from the media like everyone else. Whoever leaked it had to have been from the other side of the family. My guess is Bryer's mom and grandma saw it, and his great-uncle told the media anonymously. Or, who knows, maybe Kam's family leaked it...it seems less likely but still possible.

And, the same with the existence of multiple videos. No way was that leaked by Bryer's dad. Not only was he under an NDA and they would immediately know it was him (and since there were two leakers, his lawyer would be in trouble also). But also since they were so concerned about privacy, they probably wouldn't have even told him in the first place anything beyond the bare minimum of what they were required to under the agreement. And also, in the article it said that the two leakers were investigators, so that means the journalists would be lying.

My suspicion is that the "leak" was done by members of the RCMP and with their approval. It wouldn't be the first time they did something like this -- remember that officer who basically told us the cause of death was suicide, days before the autopsy results came out?

Anyway, the fact that the RCMP showed them the video at all and that it wasn't under an NDA originally, plus the fact that the RCMP specifically made a point of telling the media that they were using behavioral analysts to determine motive, indicates to me that the report is not just going to be gun ballistics and other forensics. It's also going to talk about motive and behavioral analysis, and most likely it's going to at least describe what was on the videos, if not a full transcript. Even if the RCMP used behavioral analysts internally during the investigation, they would not have specifically made a point of telling the media about it when they hide so many other things, if they weren't going to eventually publicize those findings.

I am not convinced they ever heard that charges had been laid against them, or that they were suspects in the tourist couple's murder. JMO

SBM

I'm positive that they had no access to media coverage at the time when they were implicated in the murders.

 

[MistyWaters]

I don't know, I guess it's possible they listened to the radio but it seems like a few very small, and some mundane but critical "ifs" would have to fall into place...

IF Prof Dyck's radio, antenna, and speakers were working.
IF K&B re-tuned the radio stations as they travelled into and out of range (unless we think it's the same station across 3 provinces.)
IF K&B were tuned into the station at the right time to hear the news, unless there are 24-hour news stations across Canada's north...(anyone ever try to catch the weather forecast on a driving trip??? Can be very frustrating...the stars have to align properly.)
IF K&B thought of a radio station as a news source. This is the most unlikely to me. I'd bet my lunch they never once thought:
"Wonder what they're sayin' about us."
"Ya, let's check the CBC."

To my way of thinking, my attempt at trying to think like them, my past experiences with driving trips, it's possible, not probable..

Just me thinking out loud...

Gillam even has 3 radio stations. FM range is very extensive with the exception of mountainous areas, hundreds of miles usually. No reason the radio in a 2011 RAV4 wouldn’t be in working order and it simply auto-scans to find stations. Listening to the radio in cars is very common while travelling and “news” is recycled repetitively at least every 1/2 hour. I’d find it hard to believe they wouldn’t be aware of a how to operate a radio in a vehicle.

List of radio stations in Manitoba - Wikipedia
VF2333 95.7 FM Gillam NCI First Nations community radio
CFIL-FM 97.1 FM Gillam Corus Entertainment news/talk
CBWG-FM 99.9 FM Gillam CBC Radio One public news/talk

 

[sandbar]

Gillam even has 3 radio stations. FM range is very extensive with the exception of mountainous areas, hundreds of miles usually. No reason the radio in a 2011 RAV4 wouldn’t be in working order. Listening to the radio in cars is very common while travelling and “news” is recycled repetitively at least every 1/2 hour.

List of radio stations in Manitoba - Wikipedia
VF2333 95.7 FM Gillam NCI First Nations community radio
CFIL-FM 97.1 FM Gillam Corus Entertainment news/talk
CBWG-FM 99.9 FM Gillam CBC Radio One public news/talk

For sure, I agree with you, in principle. Even with recycled news, though, you have to be tuned to the right station at the right time. I just don't think it's likely, these guys (probably B because K was driving?) would be fiddling with the radio tuner. I don't think patience, tenacity, or even a titch of focus or common sense is how they rolled...