Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #18

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  • #1,021
Pretty much. And there hasn't been any accounts I've read of anyone saying anything bad about Kam, or even saying he was depressed or troubled or anything. I don't think anyone's mask is that good. I think he actually was a kind, considerate person at one point, and something, or a series of events, pushed him over the edge.

And his parents trusted not only him with the expensive truck/camper, but also Bryer. So they must have had a good impression of Bryer as well.



I agree with you on the attention thing and also maybe trying to find a place in the world or a purpose. The interesting thing is that about half the accounts say Bryer was disturbed, weird, an internet troll/edgelord, etc. and the other half say he was very quiet, polite, and introverted. I don't think that's even that unusual for teenagers though...I knew people like that growing up who had that sort of "duality" depending on the situation.



His mom made a statement that he was a good person from a loving home who would never hurt anyone, or something to that effect. His grandma also said that "he was a great kid and I enjoyed living with him."



And therein lies the fascination in this case. When did things go wrong, and why?

I agree, I don't think from what we know, they sound all that different from any number of people you or I might have grown up with. There were definitely signs of Bryer being troubled, like praising Hitler from age 11, and the gun in mouth picture. But a lot of his behavior was considered to be normal, or at least not a cause for alarm, in the subcultures he was part of.

But on the other hand there's a lot of cases like that, where a young person with no history of violent behavior suddenly turns violent. So how can we identify signs before something like this happens?

I'm just hoping they had a thorough explanation on the video. It was the least they could do at that point for the loved ones of the victims and their own loved ones, honestly, to at least answer the question of what happened and why. If they themselves even knew why.
I doubt there is a reasonable explanation for what they did, at least not one that would be satisfying to the victims or the families.

It might help us to understand what caused them to suddenly turn to crime and murder.

It is very rare to suddenly become violent and capable of murder.
There must be something in their background, whether a genetic disposition or environmental factors, that led them to this point.

It seems to me that they set out on a big adventure and the murder and being fugitives on the run was all part of the thrill.

There is no reasonable or satisfying explanation for that. Imo
 
  • #1,022
I doubt there is a reasonable explanation for what they did, at least not one that would be satisfying to the victims or the families.

Yes, by "explanation" I didn't mean like, people would think they were justified in doing it, or whatever. I thought that was self explanatory but apparently not? I meant explanation of their motive and the sequence of events. That doesn't mean their motive was justified or reasonable, or makes logical sense to anyone else, but we can get insight into the psychopathology that was going on that caused them to make the decisions they made.

It is very rare to suddenly become violent and capable of murder.

There must be something in their background, whether a genetic disposition or environmental factors, that led them to this point.

Well...it's not that rare. Plenty of people commit murder with no previous history of violence. But in those cases there is generally a "trigger" that causes the person to snap. So perhaps that was the case here.
 
  • #1,023
BTW, interesting article:
Insights on why people 'snap' and kill - CNN.com

In fact, although a person's snap into violence may come as a total surprise, in most cases there is a psychological buildup to that point, said Dr. Peter Ash, director of the Psychiatry and Law Service at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia.

"There's a pathway to violence that starts with some thinking and then fantasizing about a plan," he said. "There may be a more explicit planning phase that other people don't particularly notice."

The fantasy of killing others may turn into intention, leading the person to track victims and obtain weapons, Ash said.

The psychological buildup to a violent outburst with the intent to kill usually takes a minimum of a few days, said Dr. Lyle Rossiter, a forensic psychiatrist in Saint Charles, Illinois. However, in highly unusual cases, a person with bipolar disorder could experience a buildup of only hours, he said.

A person who has already decided to kill someone else may develop an "eerie composure," firmly believing that the moment to turn back has passed, said Dr. Charles Raison, a psychiatrist and director of the Mind/Body Institute at Emory University.

Despite the planning during the buildup, experts have found that a perpetrator often cannot recall particulars about the moment of the attack. "You would think they would give it a lot of thought, but sometimes they go into a somewhat dissociated state where their feelings are really kind of split off from what they're doing," Ash said. "They may even experience it as if they went on autopilot."
[...]
Life experiences can also contribute to snapping. When mental health professionals evaluate perpetrators of violent crimes, they look at relevant defining events and personality traits, he said. For example, the person may have experienced or witnessed violence or abuse early in life, Segal said.
[...]
Other warning signs include feelings of being hopeless, ashamed and trapped, Raison said. People with these feelings may announce ahead of time that they are going to kill someone else or themselves, which increases the likelihood that they will follow through with violence.

When people who are not psychotic are committing a homicide, some dehumanize or blind themselves to the person they're shooting, Ash said.

"It's striking when you talk to people who have done things like this, how they're really preoccupied with their own feeling and have in their mind stopped thinking of the other person as real full human being," he said.
 
  • #1,024
Yeah, his graduation picture ran on July 4, 2018, but I imagine it may have been taken earlier in the year or even the year before. Maybe one of our Canadians could shed a little more light on the usual timing for those pictures?

I think one of the more recent photos of Kam is maybe the butterfly one with him and Bryer, if only because Kam's face looks comparatively more chiseled and less baby-faced than he does in the other pictures, though I still think his face has changed between then and the surveillance footage. MOO
It seems very weird that a school would take faked graduation pictures several months or a year before students graduate. I have never heard of this happening anywhere before. The picture would be completely irrelevant to the occasion it was supposed to mark?
 
  • #1,025
It seems very weird that a school would take faked graduation pictures several months or a year before students graduate. I have never heard of this happening anywhere before. The picture would be completely irrelevant to the occasion it was supposed to mark?
Some American schools do it that way, but your picture would not run if you didn't actually graduate. In my own personal experience, though, graduation pictures were usually taken before graduation but not months in advance. Some folks on here, though, said graduation pics happen the autumn of the year before. I think it really just varies considerably by region. :)
 
  • #1,026
Yes, by "explanation" I didn't mean like, people would think they were justified in doing it, or whatever. I thought that was self explanatory but apparently not? I meant explanation of their motive and the sequence of events. That doesn't mean their motive was justified or reasonable, or makes logical sense to anyone else, but we can get insight into the psychopathology that was going on that caused them to make the decisions they made.



Well...it's not that rare. Plenty of people commit murder with no previous history of violence. But in those cases there is generally a "trigger" that causes the person to snap. So perhaps that was the case here.
Yes, that's what I meant by it helping us to understand why people commit these types of crimes.
It certainly helps LE to understand and in any mass murder case the psychology behind the murders is valuable to research.

The reason I don't think they suddenly snapped is because that usually indicates a loss of control and they did not stop after the first murder.

Even when there is a trigger, there is usually an underlying cause, or at the least a lack of conscience, that makes them capable of following through with the crime. Imo
 
  • #1,027
The reason I don't think they suddenly snapped is because that usually indicates a loss of control and they did not stop after the first murder.

Just because they didn't stop after the first murder, doesn't mean that something didn't cause them to snap in the beginning. Those kinds of cases have happened before. For example, Kip Kinkel and Andrew Cunanan.
 
  • #1,028
Some people were posting upstream about the final video---and suggested they may have cried, apologised for their crimes and expressed remorse.

In my opinion, if they had done so, and admitted guilt, and made confessions, then snippets would have been made public. I think LE would love to show evidence of their guilt.

I am wondering if they might have done the opposite in that video---expressed their total innocence and their frustration that they were accused of such crimes, and if so, we will never see any of it.
 
  • #1,029
Explanations are for wrecking somebody’s vehicle, not coming home on time, or forgetting to take out the garbage.

There is no satisfactory explanation for murdering three entirely innocent people.

They fled from BC to Manitoba in a stolen car to avoid arrest. If remorse was involved it was because they were unable to navigate the Nelson River IMO.


The problem about any 'explanation' from Kam and Bry will be the absence of follow up questions. Since they are now dead. One could say, they had the last word.

However, other killers decided to forge on with life, trial and imprisonment and sentencing notwithstanding.

One of those was Blaine Milam. Only a few months older than Kam, just 20 at the time of his venture into murder, perhaps his 'explanation ' might serve as template. And also, the usual claim of a hard early life, a mistaken mindset, a problematic romance, a mother who refuses to believe the fate that awaits her son, it has a lot of the ingredients that inhabit the story of Kam and Bry.

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( this documentary takes a while to get to the actual crime committed by Blaine, and contains distressing , possibly triggering segments. Points of view of the local sheriff, Texas rangers, and Blaine himself are slowly revealed. )
 
  • #1,030
It seems very weird that a school would take faked graduation pictures several months or a year before students graduate. I have never heard of this happening anywhere before. The picture would be completely irrelevant to the occasion it was supposed to mark?

It's commonly done so the photos of the grad class in the school yearbook can have them wearing a graduation gown. It takes too long to produce the yearbook to take the photos at grad.

Here's a random example:
Premier Christy Clark’s graduation photo from her 1983 yearbook from Burnaby South.

edit: removed 'cap'
 
  • #1,031
Just because they didn't stop after the first murder, doesn't mean that something didn't cause them to snap in the beginning. Those kinds of cases have happened before. For example, Kip Kinkel and Andrew Cunanan.
Yes, that's true, but there is usually a series of psychological events leading up to that point that causes them to react to the trigger. There is a significant period of time leading up to the violent event.
By snap I meant when someone suddenly goes onto a rage and is out of control. It is usually very fast and there is a cooling off period afterwards.
Like when a husband and wife are in an emotiinal argument and one becomes enraged, and as a result, "snaps" and "acts" without control. Imo
 
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  • #1,032
In a way, that doesn't surprise me. I've never talked to anyone in the airsoft community, though my brother has some friends who are into it. From what I have read and gleaned, it seems like the real draw and focus of the sport is doing simulated battles, so it kind of makes sense that they'd all be in fatigues and military gear and not find it very odd for someone else to be doing that. MOO

Years ago a group of me and my friends tried outdoor paintball in a huge wooded area of forest. Other "regulars" there showed up in top notch gear, you could tell they were probably there every weekend.

All my friends had a blast but I hated it, too violent for me! We all got separated and I felt like a hunted animal as people take it super serious.

Not even realizing it, I instinctually flipped my mask/face protector up feeling claustrophobic and unnatural (not allowed for safety reasons) and was hit in the neck and pulled off for rest of the time (oh darn...)

It felt like "war" to me! I didn't find it fun, it felt too aggressive for this wimp but hey, it seems lots of people enjoy it! And yep, lots of people with full-on gear I remember that.
 
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  • #1,033
The thing about the 'snap' theory is, one has to believe they both 'snapped' at the same time, over the same trigger, with the same intensity, whereby both of them formed a desire, or , perhaps a requirement, to kill a particular person and/or persons and at the same time, had the weaponry to hand to facilitate this requirement.
Yes, that's true, but there is usually a series of psychological events leading up to that point that causes them to react to the trigger. There is a significant period of time leading up to the violent event.
By snap I meant when someone suddenly goes onto a rage and is out of control. It is usually very fast and there is usually a cooling off period afterwards.
Like when a husband and wife are in an emotiinal argument and one becomes enraged, and as a result, "snaps" and "acts" without control. Imo

( bolded by me for emphasis)

When one becomes enraged. It is a different event when two become enraged at the same person/persons. Which is what happened , apparently, on the side of this Canadian highway.


People do kill in concert with another, or with multiple others, but it isn't a general workable theory that the 'snap' element is present in all the participants, to the same murderous degree. .
 
  • #1,034
The thing about the 'snap' theory is, one has to believe they both 'snapped' at the same time, over the same trigger, with the same intensity, whereby both of them formed a desire, or , perhaps a requirement, to kill a particular person and/or persons and at the same time, had the weaponry to hand to facilitate this requirement.

People do kill in concert with another, or with multiple others, but it isn't a general workable theory that the 'snap' element is present in all the particip


( bolded by me for emphasis)

When one becomes enraged. It is a different event when two become enraged at the same person/persons. Which is what happened , apparently, on the side of this Canadian highway.

The thing about the 'snap' theory is, one has to believe they both 'snapped' at the same time, over the same trigger, with the same intensity, whereby both of them formed a desire, or , perhaps a requirement, to kill a particular person and/or persons and at the same time, had the weaponry to hand to facilitate this requirement.


People do kill in concert with another, or with multiple others, but it isn't a general workable theory that the 'snap' element is present in all the participants, to the same murderous degree. .
Yes, I wonder if one or the other was the "leader," or had any kind of influence over the other.
I also wonder if one or both had had urges in the past, or fantasized about harming or killing someone.
Maybe that was something they had in common, or the reason why they were drawn to each other in the first place.
It's hard to imagine that they both just suddenly found themselves having the desire to kill people, or that it was a tragic accident of some kind. I can see killing one person in an uncontrolled frenzy, but three?
I guess anything is possible.
Exactly how much time passed between the first murder and the next? Imo
 
  • #1,035
Some people were posting upstream about the final video---and suggested they may have cried, apologised for their crimes and expressed remorse.

In my opinion, if they had done so, and admitted guilt, and made confessions, then snippets would have been made public. I think LE would love to show evidence of their guilt.

I am wondering if they might have done the opposite in that video---expressed their total innocence and their frustration that they were accused of such crimes, and if so, we will never see any of it.

Nope, the RCMP made it very clear from the beginning, that they weren't going to release anything until the final report was ready. They're very by-the-book and they want it all to be out at once, instead of stringing it along for weeks.
 
  • #1,036
The thing about the 'snap' theory is, one has to believe they both 'snapped' at the same time, over the same trigger, with the same intensity, whereby both of them formed a desire, or , perhaps a requirement, to kill a particular person and/or persons and at the same time, had the weaponry to hand to facilitate this requirement.

SBM - I agree, can't see them both snapping at the same time. Instead of 'snap' I think this might've been more of a build up over time and feeding off and even encouraging each other's dark ideas possibly. They might've been talking about doing something for years.
 
  • #1,037
Yes, I wonder if one or the other was the "leader," or had any kind of influence over the other.
I also wonder if one or both had had urges in the past, or fantasized about harming or killing someone.
Maybe that was something they had in common, or the reason why they were drawn to each other in the first place.
It's hard to imagine that they both just suddenly found themselves having the desire to kill people, or that it was a tragic accident of some kind. I can see killing one person in an uncontrolled frenzy, but three?
I guess anything is possible.
Exactly how much time passed between the first murder and the next? Imo


"Exactly how much time passed between the first murder and the next? "

quote from Betsy's post.

3 days and I think around 400 klms. Plenty of time to cool down, then again, plenty of time to ratchet up the intent.

I am certain they both fantasized a lot, about power, about leadership, about revenge, about inflicting pain and humiliation and terror on people, and , as it turns out, Bryer was pretty confident about threatening to behead a young women, with enough force and believability about performing that act, in a manner quite insouciant and knowing full well the horror that would produce in a young woman. She didn't forget it, and it's reasonable to assume she wasn't the only one he informed of the potentially tortuous acts he intended to perpetrate upon them. For what? I don't know, but it was out of all proportion, obviously.

And beheading. Where did he get that from? . it isn't in Canadian mythology as far as I can tell.

So .. it is reasonable to assume that Kam wasn't backwards in this as well, and the reasonable assumption rests on the bloody bodies of Mr Fowler and Miss Deese discarded in full view on the highway. That didn't come from nothing. And they were the closest of friends. They shared everything, obviously.
 
  • #1,038
SBM - I agree, can't see them both snapping at the same time. Instead of 'snap' I think this might've been more of a build up over time and feeding off and even encouraging each other's dark ideas possibly. They might've been talking about doing something for years.

I'm sure that was present as well. But for example in Columbine, from what I understand, Eric and Dylan both had violent fantasies for years, but it was only after they were arrested for theft, which enraged them both, that they really started planning it. So it's not unprecedented.
 
  • #1,039
  • #1,040
The thing about Eric and Dylan in regard to the Columbine murders, is that both Eric and Dylan had a point to make, and revenge to take on the entity in their mind that was Columbine High School and all who sailed in her.

So there was that factor of murdering for relief of fury and out of revenge for offences that Eric and Dylan persuaded themselves that they had suffered. With a few other factors thrown in , a bit of racism, genderism, ageism, a whole stew of factors, but their target was settled on long before the slaughter, and they didn't deviate from that target.

Whereas, Kam and Bry chose their victims from a the vast pool of total strangers, an ad hoc method and with a hideous lack of motive, or reason for the killings, except for the most obvious, the undeniable one of killing for the hell of it.

It could be argued that Prof Dycks murder was for his vehicle, and that might hold up, but it was a temporary theft, they burnt it not long after. .

Even stealing didn't seem to be satisfying. .
 
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