Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #19

[Grouper]

DBM because original quoted post is irrelevant

 

[Zella]

We're also not supposed to sleuth anybody's family. It's against WS's terms of service to be hunting down people who might be related to Kam and posting about them.

 

[katydid23]

It’s interesting to me how concerned the police seem to be with copycat behaviour, as if we do not live in a world that is already saturated with violent imagery that is directly accessible. Films, games, even books and documentaries. Let’s not forget Luca Magnotta was inspired by Basic Instinct. But I do understand the reasoning (limit the exposure as much as they can). I don’t know. It seems like a bit of a half-hearted reason for withholding information. Anyway, just my two unrelated cents here. I’m sure people will inevitably disagree, and that’s fine.

We have seen a lot of copycat crimes in the US. Especially with young people. It happens with teen suicides and with school shootings.

Once they began giving a lot of press and tv coverage to the shooters, they almost became 'celebrities' to other troubled youth. Many of the shootings which happened after Columbine were basically 'homages' to the Columbine swines. Some treated it like it was a live action video game, and they tried to 'beat' previous killers, etc.

So I totally understand why rcmp might shy away from publicising these crimes. JMO IMO


Investigation shows more than 100 copycat shooters inspired by Columbine since 1999

Investigation shows more than 100 copycat shooters inspired by Columbine since 1999

According to the magazine, people who plan or commit these type of attacks can be motivated by media coverage, although it says, citing an FBI study, that grievances and behavioral issues are the main reasons for such shootings and shooting plots.

One threat assessment expert says the regular reference to shootings as “Columbine-style” has also contributed to the issue of copycats.

 

[MistyWaters]

We have seen a lot of copycat crimes in the US. Especially with young people. It happens with teen suicides and with school shootings.

Once they began giving a lot of press and tv coverage to the shooters, they almost became 'celebrities' to other troubled youth. Many of the shootings which happened after Columbine were basically 'homages' to the Columbine swines. Some treated it like it was a live action video game, and they tried to 'beat' previous killers, etc.

So I totally understand why rcmp might shy away from publicising these crimes. JMO IMO


Investigation shows more than 100 copycat shooters inspired by Columbine since 1999

Investigation shows more than 100 copycat shooters inspired by Columbine since 1999

According to the magazine, people who plan or commit these type of attacks can be motivated by media coverage, although it says, citing an FBI study, that grievances and behavioral issues are the main reasons for such shootings and shooting plots.

One threat assessment expert says the regular reference to shootings as “Columbine-style” has also contributed to the issue of copycats.

This article dated July 26th talks about various copycat crimes as well. And the writer was right, the search didn’t have a good ending for anybody.

BBM

Comment: When killings lead to questions and theories

“....No amount of this kind of knowledge will alleviate our shock, bordering on denial, that this kind of thing can explode out of personalities that people thought were a bit odd in some ways (aren’t we all?) but nothing to worry about......

.......None of this is easy to know about. None of this really explains why, at least at the time of writing, two “normal” teens from Port Alberni have been charged with second degree — unpremeditated — murder of a 64-year-old stranger.

We rightly fear what we don’t understand.

One thing we knew, as soon as Bryer Schmegelsky and Kam McLeod were considered suspects, was that the search would not have a good ending for anybody.”

 

[kmclaren]

The article I posted on the last page had quotes from the RCMP that they said were from last week.

OK thanks, saw that now. I'm still skeptical that the Star would have squeezed out any real new information on this case - the article does have the RCMP's statements in quotes so I'll try to believe it...

 

[kmclaren]

OK thanks, saw that now. I'm still skeptical that the Star would have squeezed out any real new information on this case - the article does have the RCMP's statements in quotes so I'll try to believe it...

So I googled "Schmegelsky" and "no other suspects" found this in an article dated Aug 7th - >>When asked, however, Hackett said there were no other suspects the RCMP is actively investigating.<< So the Star did not get any new information as I suspected... They did quote a different RCMP officer so she was likely just confirming Hackett's earlier statement.

Murder suspects' motives 'difficult for us to ascertain' after bodies found: BC RCMP

 

[NJSleuth91]

So I googled "Schmegelsky" and "no other suspects" found this in an article dated Aug 7th - >>When asked, however, Hackett said there were no other suspects the RCMP is actively investigating.<< So the Star did not get any new information as I suspected... They did quote a different RCMP officer so she was likely just confirming Hackett's earlier statement.

Murder suspects' motives 'difficult for us to ascertain' after bodies found: BC RCMP

But it still means the old quote was still relevant to the current state of the investigation.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I understand everyone's frustration at the moment, but try and look at it this way. First, they had already been charged with LD’s murder. Second, it’s obvious to me they knew they were wanted in connection with the murder of LF and CD. If they were innocent, they had weeks to hand themselves over to the police. Why did they hide in the Manitoba swamps? If their aim from the outset was to commit suicide, why did they kill LD let alone LF and CD? How many innocent people commit suicide if they’re innocent?

Because it is such a high profile case, has international attention, and because the teens committed suicide, I believe the RCMP will release their report when they basically have all their evidence in order as if the case was going to trial. I expect they will say something like:

• The ballistic evidence proves that the same weapons and ammunition were used in all 3 murders. (This will show you how important ballistic evidence is)
  
  
• Their DNA was found on all 3 bodies and/or at both crime scenes.
  
  
• Their fingerprints were found at both crime scenes.

etc.

The public want answers and I’m sure they will get some, but not in the way that US residents are accustomed. I think the US is unique in that regard. I live in Australia and our laws are very similar to those of Canada and the UK. For that reason I never cease to be amazed at the amount of information that is disclosed to the public under the US Freedom of Information Act in murder cases. IMO it would be highly improper for the RCMP to be handing out information in bits and pieces just because the public want answers. After all, in the US records are frequently sealed until it is considered appropriate to unseal them, not because the public want to know and they want to know now. They had a duty to warn the public when the teens became suspects, and they did this. Their investigation is continuing and we will need patience while they prove to legal standards, if that is in fact what they’re doing, what they believe happened, even though KM and BS are deceased. That will be the time when they release their report.

I absolutely understand the frustration the teens’ families must be feeling. They’re victims too and they must be totally devastated at what has happened. While I find some comments made by BS appalling, words aren't actions and I've not read any history of violence being committed by either of them. I believe it's highly likely that they were responsible for the murder of all 3 victims, but like everyone else, I too want to hear the evidence against them.

 

[Zella]

I understand everyone's frustration at the moment, but try and look at it this way. First, they had already been charged with LD’s murder. Second, it’s obvious to me they knew they were wanted in connection with the murder of LF and CD. If they were innocent, they had weeks to hand themselves over to the police. Why did they hide in the Manitoba swamps? If their aim from the outset was to commit suicide, why did they kill LD let alone LF and CD? How many innocent people commit suicide if they’re innocent?

Because it is such a high profile case, has international attention, and because the teens committed suicide, I believe the RCMP will release their report when they basically have all their evidence in order as if the case was going to trial. I expect they will say something like:

• The ballistic evidence proves that the same weapons and ammunition were used in all 3 murders. (This will show you how important ballistic evidence is)
  
  
• Their DNA was found on all 3 bodies and/or at both crime scenes.
  
  
• Their fingerprints were found at both crime scenes.

etc.

The public want answers and I’m sure they will get some, but not in the way that US residents are accustomed. I think the US is unique in that regard. I live in Australia and our laws are very similar to those of Canada and the UK. For that reason I never cease to be amazed at the amount of information that is disclosed to the public under the US Freedom of Information Act in murder cases. IMO it would be highly improper for the RCMP to be handing out information in bits and pieces just because the public want answers. After all, in the US records are frequently sealed until it is considered appropriate to unseal them, not because the public want to know and they want to know now. They had a duty to warn the public when the teens became suspects, and they did this. Their investigation is continuing and we will need patience while they prove to legal standards, if that is in fact what they’re doing, what they believe happened, even though KM and BS are deceased. That will be the time when they release their report.

I absolutely understand the frustration the teens’ families must be feeling. They’re victims too and they must be totally devastated at what has happened. While I find some comments made by BS appalling, words aren't actions and I've not read any history of violence being committed by either of them. I believe it's highly likely that they were responsible for the murder of all 3 victims, but like everyone else, I too want to hear the evidence against them.

I agree with pretty much everything you say here, except people who are innocent but accused of crimes do sometimes commit suicide, especially if they feel hounded by LE or shunned by the community due to the accusations.

So, I think it is problematic to assume that a suspect committing suicide automatically equals guilt, absent of other evidence.

I'd argue the fact the suspects didn't turn themselves in when they were asked to contact RCMP and fled in a car stolen from a homicide victim is more suggestive of guilt than them committing suicide. MOO

 

[CanadianSleuther]

I'd argue the fact the suspects didn't turn themselves in when they were asked to contact RCMP and fled in a car stolen from a homicide victim is more suggestive of guilt than them committing suicide. MOO

This I 100% agree with.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I agree with pretty much everything you say here, except people who are innocent but accused of crimes do sometimes commit suicide, especially if they feel hounded by LE or shunned by the community due to the accusations.

So, I think it is problematic to assume that a suspect committing suicide automatically equals guilt, absent of other evidence.

I'd argue the fact the suspects didn't turn themselves in when they were asked to contact RCMP and fled in a car stolen from a homicide victim is more suggestive of guilt than them committing suicide. MOO

Yes, innocent people do occasionally commit suicide, but that’s invariably once they’re in custody, and I’m yet to find a case where someone in a situation like this committed suicide before being apprehended. It probably has happened before but we’re not talking about murder/suicide as in kill the wife and then yourself or family annihilators and neither are we talking of them being hounded by the police or being shunned by the community. BS father certainly made his views known that his son was on a suicide mission but of course that’s only his opinion but it just so happens he was right.

I asked rhetorical questions in my first paragraph and never said that suicide was more indicative of guilt as opposed to fleeing in a stolen car.

Neither did I assume their guilt. I said at the end of my post, “I believe it's highly likely that they were responsible for the murder of all 3 victims, but like everyone else, I too want to hear the evidence against them.”

 

[Zella]

Yes, innocent people do occasionally commit suicide, but that’s invariably once they’re in custody

SBM

That's simply not true.

There are several cases of people who commit suicide without being in custody and are innocent.

For example, Violet Sharp killed herself after the Lindberg kidnapping and was not in custody. She is also now widely believed to have been innocent but became freaked out for fear of losing her job and the pressure LE was applying to her. She killed herself right before she was supposed to be questioned a fourth time.

I asked rhetorical questions in my first paragraph

I apologize if I came across the wrong way. Since you asked how many innocent people killed themselves, I simply tried to provide an answer. I never thought you were implying anything. As I said, I was just trying to answer your question, not realizing it was only intended to be rhetorical. FWIW, I agree with you that they are likely guilty, but I would still like to see the evidence.

 

[Esprite]

I'm still struck by the fact that whatever the RCMP found at the murder sites triggered a massive manhunt unlike any Canada has ever known. Surely, we must allow them the time to piece together all the facts, and to conduct a proper investigation.

 

[SovereignSnake]

I'm still struck by the fact that whatever the RCMP found at the murder sites triggered a massive manhunt unlike any Canada has ever known. Surely, we must allow them the time to piece together all the facts, and to conduct a proper investigation.

I agree. I'm also curious how long it would have taken to find Leonard had they not torched the Dodge and Camper and also not left in such a seemingly big hurry i.e. not leaving him visible in a highway pullout. Not to mention, how visible was he? Did Kam and Bryer make any attempt to conceal Leonard's body at all? Were they scared of the body? I would also like to know if Kam and Bryer ever had any idea how many people were involved in their search? Surely in the days they were alive they had to have heard helicopters, planes, drones, actual people, etc. But did they ever truly know the scope? How close were they to being found alive? Like did they ever get too close to a drone, a helicopter or even a person but somehow remained undetected? Was it the mounting pressure that drove them to suicide, simply the natural elements or a combination of both? Did they realize how far they still had to walk to get to the Hudson Bay? Did they even know they were that close? I mean did they have any idea where they were?

 

[katydid23]

I agree. I'm also curious how long it would have taken to find Leonard had they not torched the Dodge and Camper and also not left in such a seemingly big hurry i.e. not leaving him visible in a highway pullout. Not to mention, how visible was he? Did Kam and Bryer make any attempt to conceal Leonard's body at all? Were they scared of the body? I would also like to know if Kam and Bryer ever had any idea how many people were involved in their search? Surely in the days they were alive they had to have heard helicopters, planes, drones, actual people, etc. But did they ever truly know the scope? How close were they to being found alive? Like did they ever get too close to a drone, a helicopter or even a person but somehow remained undetected? Was it the mounting pressure that drove them to suicide, simply the natural elements or a combination of both? Did they realize how far they still had to walk to get to the Hudson Bay? Did they even know they were that close? I mean did they have any idea where they were?

All great questions---which is why I am dying to see those videos they left behind.

In my mind, there are two likely scenarios, for the end of life videos.

One scenario, would be the 'we are innocent' narrative: a series of urgent videos, where they defend themselves and deny the accusations, and explain why they are running. They say goodbye to their families and assure them they were falsely accused but feel hopeless...

OR

they do the opposite narrative---the Bad Boys on the Run series of videos. Maybe justifying and explaining their actions, but not denying their guilt? Apologising to their friends and family but explaining why happened, in a rebellious, rogue way?



I really feel like the videos fall roughly in one of these two categories. What else could they say? Any ideas?

 

[NJSleuth91]

All great questions---which is why I am dying to see those videos they left behind.

In my mind, there are two likely scenarios, for the end of life videos.

One scenario, would be the 'we are innocent' narrative: a series of urgent videos, where they defend themselves and deny the accusations, and explain why they are running. They say goodbye to their families and assure them they were falsely accused but feel hopeless...

OR

they do the opposite narrative---the Bad Boys on the Run series of videos. Maybe justifying and explaining their actions, but not denying their guilt? Apologising to their friends and family but explaining why happened, in a rebellious, rogue way?

I really feel like the videos fall roughly in one of these two categories. What else could they say? Any ideas?

Or the "Scared and Upset Teenagers Who Realize How Badly They Destroyed Everything But Are Too Cowardly to Turn Themselves In" series of videos.

So far my money's on a progression from Option B to Option C.

Do you guys think the RCMP is going to feel pressured to release the videos to quell all the speculation about whether or not they did it, and their motive?

 

[MistyWaters]

Or the "Scared and Upset Teenagers Who Realize How Badly They Destroyed Everything But Are Too Cowardly to Turn Themselves In" series of videos.

So far my money's on a progression from Option B to Option C.

Do you guys think the RCMP is going to feel pressured to release the videos to quell all the speculation about whether or not they did it, and their motive?

The videos will ever be released to the public IMO. What business is it of ours? It would cause a huge amount of additional horror and grief to the five families involved along with more needless speculation.

The RCMP claimed there was evidence linking the two to both crime scenes. That’s what they will present to the public. They do not bow to pressure in the same way as elected politicians might, in the US.

A video of a confession or denial behind the grave... What then, the general public is supposed to judge if they’re telling the truth? Any why would they tell the truth? If they wanted the public to hear their story they had the right to testify in court under oath instead of dying by suicide. Their voices do not deserve to be heard after death.

 

[CanadianSleuther]

Do you guys think the RCMP is going to feel pressured to release the videos to quell all the speculation about whether or not they did it, and their motive?

I have a feeling that AS will go back to the media to get answers, and then maybe we will get some glipse or he'll tell us. Time will tell though.

 

[tabitha111]

I'm just waiting for the book to be written someday. I think that's the only way we will get most of our questions answered.

 

[MistyWaters]

I agree. I'm also curious how long it would have taken to find Leonard had they not torched the Dodge and Camper and also not left in such a seemingly big hurry i.e. not leaving him visible in a highway pullout. Not to mention, how visible was he? Did Kam and Bryer make any attempt to conceal Leonard's body at all? Were they scared of the body? I would also like to know if Kam and Bryer ever had any idea how many people were involved in their search? Surely in the days they were alive they had to have heard helicopters, planes, drones, actual people, etc. But did they ever truly know the scope? How close were they to being found alive? Like did they ever get too close to a drone, a helicopter or even a person but somehow remained undetected? Was it the mounting pressure that drove them to suicide, simply the natural elements or a combination of both? Did they realize how far they still had to walk to get to the Hudson Bay? Did they even know they were that close? I mean did they have any idea where they were?

I suspect attempting to evade police wasn’t as much fun as they thought it might be, especially when they became aware no escape was possible. After the adrenaline from the murders wore off, hours and hours on the road, they began to wear on each other’s nerves and disagreements erupted, cold nights, hunger, clouds of sand flies, soaking wet from rain or the river, desolation.....they just gave up and took the cowardly way out IMO.