CANADA Canada - Margaret McWilliam, 21, Toronto, 27 Aug 1987 'Cinderella Murder'

[SaintGertrude]

Do we know for certain that UK LE visited Canada in connection with Fullers murders? If so when did they visit and where in Canada? Thanks

The True Crime enthusiast podcast team in the UK covered the bedsit murders and it was their author who mentioned Canada and Australia. I have contacted them to try and get clarification as pretty sure there was no official suspect until more recently when Fuller was arrested and charged for both bedsit murders

 

[Gina20]

Murder list of murders in Canada with dates
Canada murderers list | Murderpedia
I don't want to teach people to suck eggs but some ideas.
A few things to check if person could be a suspect in a further murder could be as follows:-
Modus Operandi
Date of assault
Could the killer have been in a certain location at a certain time.
Any DNA evidence such as skin cells, sweat, shoe prints.
Does the victim look like any other previous victims.
Are there any available e-fits of the suspect or some CCTV footage even.
Age/Occupation of both the victim and the suspect
Method of transport (For example was a body moved a distance after the murder)
Were previous victims targeted male/female or a mixture of both.
Does the killer always act alone or perhaps with an accomplice.

None of this has been of any use in Margaret McWilliam's case, unfortunately. Either the police have a good DNA sample, or they don't. Technology has developed to the point that even very small DNA samples can be "distilled" and compared with family members' DNA , then tracked to one individual, using genetic genealogy. If they do have a sample, get on with it! This is the only way historic cold cases like this will be solved, IMO. It's time to play the cards they have, or admit that there is not enough evidence to solve this murder. Honesty is better than false hope.

 

[SaintGertrude]

None of this has been of any use in Margaret McWilliam's case, unfortunately. Either the police have a good DNA sample, or they don't. Technology has developed to the point that even very small DNA samples can be "distilled" and compared with family members' DNA , then tracked to one individual, using genetic genealogy. If they do have a sample, get on with it! This is the only way historic cold cases like this will be solved, IMO. It's time to play the cards they have, or admit that there is not enough evidence to solve this murder. Honesty is better than false hope.

True, even if someone is placed at the scene of a crime it is circumstantial unless there is evidence and the best evidence is DNA fibre, shoe print or something to link a suspect with a crime. Many a killer has probably got away with murder as there was not enough to charge.

 

[Gina20]

I think that if DF was involved in murders in Canada, there is a good chance he has photographic evidence in his extensive catalogue. He had 14 million images of sex offences, some stored on outdated technologies. He also kept detailed notes of his activities. I don't think we've heard the last of him.

David Fuller: How was one of Britain's most prolific sex offenders caught and how did he get away with it for so long?

 

[Gina20]

Here is the profile of the man who killed Margaret McWilliam in 1987:

Painting a psychological profile of the killer, he said the person responsible, likely, would not be able to maintain a normal relationship with a woman.

“There would likely be a lot of conflict in his relationships,” he said. “He likely would not be in a high-profile job, likely be in a low-end job, change jobs frequently, not an excellent communicator more so with women than men, likely now if not at that time abusing alcohol and drugs, may have had some sort of a traumatic family issue happening at the time surrounding whether it was family violence happening within his home, against his own mother, a discord with his mother . . . ”

When asked why he hasn’t come up in subsequent investigations, Gallant offered a few reasons.

He could be dead — suicide, disease or natural causes.

Other options on why he hasn’t been caught could be because he moved out of the country a short time after he committed the offence.

The only other possibility why this man isn’t on the radar is because he didn’t commit another murder, which Gallant finds unlikely.

Nearly 30 years later no leads in ‘Cinderella murder’

Here is a description of David Fuller from his trial for the 1987 murders and sexual assaults of two women in the U.K.:

Maidstone Crown Court heard Sally Fuller suffered a black eye, and bruises on her arms and legs where he had kicked her....

Mrs Fuller told Ms Turland that her husband had a "roving eye" and was always looking at other people, which she was "sick of".

On one occasion Mrs Fuller went into work with a black eye and Ms Turland helped her cover it with make-up.

"There'd obviously been a fight. I could tell from her eyes she'd been crying," she said in a statement read to the court....

The court heard Mr Fuller had a number of affairs, including two with nurses at the hospital where he worked, which left Mrs Fuller "deeply hurt".

David Fuller trial: Double murder accused 'abused and cheated on wife'

 

[SaintGertrude]

Here is the profile of the man who killed Margaret McWilliam in 1987:

Painting a psychological profile of the killer, he said the person responsible, likely, would not be able to maintain a normal relationship with a woman.

“There would likely be a lot of conflict in his relationships,” he said. “He likely would not be in a high-profile job, likely be in a low-end job, change jobs frequently, not an excellent communicator more so with women than men, likely now if not at that time abusing alcohol and drugs, may have had some sort of a traumatic family issue happening at the time surrounding whether it was family violence happening within his home, against his own mother, a discord with his mother . . . ”

When asked why he hasn’t come up in subsequent investigations, Gallant offered a few reasons.

He could be dead — suicide, disease or natural causes.

Other options on why he hasn’t been caught could be because he moved out of the country a short time after he committed the offence.

The only other possibility why this man isn’t on the radar is because he didn’t commit another murder, which Gallant finds unlikely.

Nearly 30 years later no leads in ‘Cinderella murder’

Here is a description of David Fuller from his trial for the 1987 murders and sexual assaults of two women in the U.K.:

Maidstone Crown Court heard Sally Fuller suffered a black eye, and bruises on her arms and legs where he had kicked her....

Mrs Fuller told Ms Turland that her husband had a "roving eye" and was always looking at other people, which she was "sick of".

On one occasion Mrs Fuller went into work with a black eye and Ms Turland helped her cover it with make-up.

"There'd obviously been a fight. I could tell from her eyes she'd been crying," she said in a statement read to the court....

The court heard Mr Fuller had a number of affairs, including two with nurses at the hospital where he worked, which left Mrs Fuller "deeply hurt".

David Fuller trial: Double murder accused 'abused and cheated on wife'

I agree with most things said by the police although feel that this part has been largely ignored and could hold further clues about her killer.
"McWilliam left her basement apartment"

Was it easy for a voyeuristic person to stalk her over a series of days or even weeks. Is there any road name ( Santamonica Blvd, Toronto, Ontario, Canada) we can look at on google maps to see how secluded or easy to have access to the basement apartment was. Did Margaret share or was she a lone woman living in a basement as this may be an important part of the case.

 

[whiterhino]

I agree with most things said by the police although feel that this part has been largely ignored and could hold further clues about her killer.
"McWilliam left her basement apartment"

Was it easy for a voyeuristic person to stalk her over a series of days or even weeks. Is there any road name ( Santamonica Blvd, Toronto, Ontario, Canada) we can look at on google maps to see how secluded or easy to have access to the basement apartment was. Did Margaret share or was she a lone woman living in a basement as this may be an important part of the case.

If Margaret lived alone and had a stalker then why would her killer not target her in her own place? Why watch her at home only to strike in a public park?

It would be interesting to know how close the park was from the apartment and workplace though (if there's a map, apologies just laziness on my part). Maybe Margaret had a stalker or maybe there was a creeper hanging around the park, watching people? IMO whoever attacked MM probably did it before and probably did it again.

She was killed using her own clothing. It was a public park. She was wearing headphones IIRC. Maybe this was a deciding factor for her assailant, not being able to hear someone approaching.

 

[SaintGertrude]

Here is the profile of the man who killed Margaret McWilliam in 1987:

Painting a psychological profile of the killer, he said the person responsible, likely, would not be able to maintain a normal relationship with a woman.

“There would likely be a lot of conflict in his relationships,” he said. “He likely would not be in a high-profile job, likely be in a low-end job, change jobs frequently, not an excellent communicator more so with women than men, likely now if not at that time abusing alcohol and drugs, may have had some sort of a traumatic family issue happening at the time surrounding whether it was family violence happening within his home, against his own mother, a discord with his mother . . . ”

When asked why he hasn’t come up in subsequent investigations, Gallant offered a few reasons.

He could be dead — suicide, disease or natural causes.

Other options on why he hasn’t been caught could be because he moved out of the country a short time after he committed the offence.

The only other possibility why this man isn’t on the radar is because he didn’t commit another murder, which Gallant finds unlikely.

Nearly 30 years later no leads in ‘Cinderella murder’

Here is a description of David Fuller from his trial for the 1987 murders and sexual assaults of two women in the U.K.:

Maidstone Crown Court heard Sally Fuller suffered a black eye, and bruises on her arms and legs where he had kicked her....

Mrs Fuller told Ms Turland that her husband had a "roving eye" and was always looking at other people, which she was "sick of".

On one occasion Mrs Fuller went into work with a black eye and Ms Turland helped her cover it with make-up.

"There'd obviously been a fight. I could tell from her eyes she'd been crying," she said in a statement read to the court....

The court heard Mr Fuller had a number of affairs, including two with nurses at the hospital where he worked, which left Mrs Fuller "deeply hurt".

David Fuller trial: Double murder accused 'abused and cheated on wife'

Fuller was into Necrophilia so would have possibly abused his bed sit victims after death.
Necrophilia - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics.
The etiology of necrophilia is still poorly understood, especially in relation to sexual homicide. Biological theories suggest that severe headaches, and heavy alcohol can induce temporal lobe abnormalities (which have been associated with other paraphilias also) (Aggrawal, 2009). Psychoanalytical theories suggest “unconscious suppressed hostility toward parental figures and sadistic impulses to explore the mother's body….The offender takes revenge on a ‘female figure’ (the dead female, symbolizing mother or spouse), by ravishing her”

Margaret's murderers psychological profile says
''May have had some sort of a traumatic family issue happening at the time surrounding whether it was family violence happening within his home, against his own mother, a discord with his mother . . . ”

 

[SaintGertrude]

Here is the map showing location between Margaret's house and where the killer struck. It would still be interesting to see the exact layout of her house. I will have a look on Google maps as this link also gives the exact address of where she was living at the time of her murder.
Margaret McWilliam

 

[SaintGertrude]

Here is the map showing location between Margaret's house and where the killer struck. It would still be interesting to see the exact layout of her house. I will have a look on Google maps as this link also gives the exact address of where she was living at the time of her murder.
Margaret McWilliam

I am wondering what backs onto the late Margaret's house (address mentioned in the media link) as it looks pretty wooded to me. Would there have been stalker access. Is it thought by most people that it was an opportunist attack. I am thinking maybe someone creepy watching her every move and even stalking days or weeks leading up to the attack.
Is anyone on here better with maps than me as I want to see what is directly behind the house and if there is easy access.

 

[SaintGertrude]

If Margaret lived alone and had a stalker then why would her killer not target her in her own place? Why watch her at home only to strike in a public park?

It would be interesting to know how close the park was from the apartment and workplace though (if there's a map, apologies just laziness on my part). Maybe Margaret had a stalker or maybe there was a creeper hanging around the park, watching people? IMO whoever attacked MM probably did it before and probably did it again.

She was killed using her own clothing. It was a public park. She was wearing headphones IIRC. Maybe this was a deciding factor for her assailant, not being able to hear someone approaching.

Here is the map link to her house
Google Maps

The house backs onto some field/wooded area
Google Maps

The other link I shared Margaret McWilliam will give you another persons map out of the proximity between the park and the apartment.

 

[SaintGertrude]

There is a railway line in between Margaret's house and Warden park

I have plotted on the map the rough steps Margaret may have taken but bearing in mind this is a modern map so details below may have since changed.

Out of interest I wonder if the foodbank on the map was nearby at the time.
Soso World Ministries - Food Bank - centraleasthealthline.ca

If the foodbank was there back in 1987 I wonder if there are any photos of visitors on wayback machine or other archives who we could compare with the e-fit of original person of interest.

 

[dotr]

Have often wondered if Margaret was actually followed and or watched when she was working at an old folks home and Ryerson U. where she attended school?
Lived near there at that time and often felt like there were some creepy things happening ie. dirty phone calls etc. noting that there are several hospitals fairly nearby. speculation, imo.
Cannot help but think of Simone Sandler.. she went missing some years later from Yonge/ Gerrard (corner of Ryerson U) and ultimately found murdered.

Does Simone Sandler’s downtown Toronto murder point to the work of a serial strangler?
Feb. 6, 2021
''Simone Sandler was sweet, empathetic and painfully naïve when she took a summer job on downtown Yonge Street in 1994, asking strangers if they wanted to appear as extras in movies.''
“The world of Yonge and Gerrard was nothing that she was ever exposed to,” former Toronto police lead homicide investigator Mark Mendelson said in an interview.''
Ws thread..
CANADA - Canada - Simone Sandler, 21, Toronto, 23 July 1994

Cold Case Files: Ontario family recalls moments after daughter’s death 29 years ago | Globalnews.ca
''Margaret moved to Scarborough in 1987 and was working at a retirement residence while attending classes at Ryerson University.

She grew up in Deep River, Ont. and had dreams to cycle across the continent.

“She liked the outdoors,” Margaret’s mother Charlotte McWilliam told Global News. “She wasn’t the greatest athlete but she liked to cycle and swim.”

Margaret and her mother had planned a trip to go on a walking tour of England and in preparation for the trip, Margaret decided to take up running.''

 

[whiterhino]

Have often wondered if Margaret was actually followed and or watched when she was working at an old folks home and Ryerson U. where she attended school?
Lived near there at that time and often felt like there were some creepy things happening ie. dirty phone calls etc. noting that there are several hospitals fairly nearby. speculation, imo.
Cannot help but think of Simone Sandler.. she went missing some years later from Yonge/ Gerrard (corner of Ryerson U) and ultimately found murdered.

Does Simone Sandler’s downtown Toronto murder point to the work of a serial strangler?
Feb. 6, 2021
''Simone Sandler was sweet, empathetic and painfully naïve when she took a summer job on downtown Yonge Street in 1994, asking strangers if they wanted to appear as extras in movies.''
“The world of Yonge and Gerrard was nothing that she was ever exposed to,” former Toronto police lead homicide investigator Mark Mendelson said in an interview.''
Ws thread..
CANADA - Canada - Simone Sandler, 21, Toronto, 23 July 1994

Cold Case Files: Ontario family recalls moments after daughter’s death 29 years ago | Globalnews.ca
''Margaret moved to Scarborough in 1987 and was working at a retirement residence while attending classes at Ryerson University.

She grew up in Deep River, Ont. and had dreams to cycle across the continent.

“She liked the outdoors,” Margaret’s mother Charlotte McWilliam told Global News. “She wasn’t the greatest athlete but she liked to cycle and swim.”

Margaret and her mother had planned a trip to go on a walking tour of England and in preparation for the trip, Margaret decided to take up running.''

A fellow student seems like a legit possibility. It would probably be fairly easy to obtain Margarets personal info from school. Maybe even a student from a different school using the same path for training? After this much time I hope that avenue has been explored already.

What if this was the first murder but not the first assault? That is quite a violent attack on someone in such an open place using the victims own clothing as a weapon. What are the odds that Margarets' killer had never done that before?

 

[Gina20]

Was there video footage in the Warden subway station in 1987, and were bus drivers interviewed?

Warden station - Wikipedia

Note the nearby Centennial College, Providence Healthcare, a high school, etc.

 

[SaintGertrude]

A fellow student seems like a legit possibility. It would probably be fairly easy to obtain Margarets personal info from school. Maybe even a student from a different school using the same path for training? After this much time I hope that avenue has been explored already.

What if this was the first murder but not the first assault? That is quite a violent attack on someone in such an open place using the victims own clothing as a weapon. What are the odds that Margarets' killer had never done that before?

I wonder how old the killer was. If he was older than imagined maybe we need to look back further 1960's and 1970's. Didn't Margaret put up a bit of a fight so maybe he was less agile than we image.

 

[SaintGertrude]

Police at that time said her face bore bruises from being punched, showing perhaps that she had bravely fought against her attacker
Her body was found in a secluded area of Warden Woods Park showing that the killer would have needed some strength to move her body probably after the attack took place.
She had been raped and badly beaten before being strangled with a piece of the jogging suit she was wearing.
The attack was a violent one so could be the works of someone who was already known to be violent towards women, potentially someone with previous domestic violence episodes towards women.
On the other hand poor Margaret may have put up quite a fight herself as she was being attacked maybe because of the perpetrators age and agility. For this reason I think to consider that he could have been in his late 40's/early 50's and not rule this out of the equation. If this is the case we could be looking as far back as the mid 1960's at previous violent crimes towards women in the area.

 

[SaintGertrude]

Why were there so many serial killers in the 1980s?
Why were there so many serial killers in the 1980s?
Quote: Society at the time was undergoing major changes - people were moving more and were less likely to know their neighbours. Hitchhiking was more common, making it easier for killers to find vulnerable victims.
DNA wasn't used until the mid-1980s for forensic purposes, making it harder to track killers.
Development of an interstate highway system, which gave some killers a wider geography

 

[SaintGertrude]

I wonder if this Doe was ever identified as he could well be the person police wanted to speak to as a potential witness in 1987 but found dead in the river in 2002
HUNTER: They found this John Doe in the Don. Do you know him? | Toronto Sun
According to cops, on July 26, 2002, the remains of an unidentified man were found in the area of the Don River at the Queen Street Bridge.
The veteran investigator noted that the reason several drawings were produced of the victim was because cops weren’t sure whether the man was light or dark-skinned.
The mystery man is described as 30 to 40 years old, 5-foot-5, 217 pounds, with long black hair and a slight moustache.
At the time of his death, the victim was wearing a red T-shirt, a blue Roots sweater, brown cargo pants, a black belt, white socks, and black and white running shoes. He had a handful of loose change on him when he was discovered.

 

[SaintGertrude]

'Cinderella' clue: Police are asking anyone who owns running shoes like these to call them as part of the investigation into the rape-slaying of jogger Margaret McWilliam in Scarborough – All Items – Digital Archive : Toronto Public Library
Photo of the possible suspects shoe.