GUILTY Canada - Sammy Yatim, 18, fatally shot by Toronto LE, 27 July 2013

[bluesneakers]

Sammy Yatim still a threat after taking 8 bullets, court hears

How could he say that with a straight face I don't know.

Const. Robert Furyk was among the Toronto police officers responding to a call about a man with the knife on a streetcar around midnight on July 26, 2013. He arrived on scene just as Forcillo was firing nine shots at Yatim, eight of which struck the teenager.

When surveillance video from inside the streetcar was played and did not clearly show Yatim attempting to lift himself up, as Furyk had described, the officer said he could not explain why he believed Yatim had been pulling himself up — “that’s what I believed I was seeing,” Furyk said.

“So where do you get off testifying about him continuing a fight if you didn’t see such a thing?” [Crown counsel Ian] Bulmer asked.

“Well, I know the officers would not have shot unless something serious was happening,” Furyk replied.

“Really,” Bulmer said.

 

[musicaljoke]

Ever since police in ON started wearing guns, they have shifted their training from how to de-esculate a situation to how to use their guns to incapacitate a person.

The NY Times had an interesting article a day or so ago, describing how Police from the US have travelled to Glasgow to relearn that which they have so obviously forgotten. Canadian police should tag along too:

" Most British police officers are unarmed, a distinction particularly pronounced here in Scotland, where 98 percent of the country’s officers do not carry guns. For them, calming a situation through talk, rather than escalating it with weapons, is an essential policing tool, and one that brought a delegation of top American police officials to this town 30 miles northeast of Glasgow."

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/12/n...ontentCollection=New+York&pgtype=article&_r=1

 

[Archangel7]

My hope is that truth will be found and true justice will be administered.

 

[bluesneakers]

Ever since police in ON started wearing guns, they have shifted their training from how to de-esculate a situation to how to use their guns to incapacitate a person.

The NY Times had an interesting article a day or so ago, describing how Police from the US have travelled to Glasgow to relearn that which they have so obviously forgotten. Canadian police should tag along too:

" Most British police officers are unarmed, a distinction particularly pronounced here in Scotland, where 98 percent of the country’s officers do not carry guns. For them, calming a situation through talk, rather than escalating it with weapons, is an essential policing tool, and one that brought a delegation of top American police officials to this town 30 miles northeast of Glasgow."

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/12/n...ontentCollection=New+York&pgtype=article&_r=1

I understand they need to carry weapons, but what I don't understand is why they have to shoot people who are carrying knives, or nothing, or in one case a hammer. A hammer! How much damage could he have done? Surely there are de-escalation techniques they could have tried.

And Sammy. There was absolutely no reason to murder him. FFS. If they were that frightened they could have shut the doors and called someone from CAMH.

 

[Archangel7]

IMO there is a severe over reaction in Canadian Law and Canadian Society WRT knives, spices, etc.

When there is such an extreme "view" of inanimate objects, that "view" and attached "fear" is magnified when one of the items is brandished/displayed in public. It becomes more of a threat than it is in the true reality of that specific event and in that specific moment in time.

Couple that extreme view with stress, aggressive adrenaline, poor training, incorrect risk management and threat assessment decisions, and a troubled and deranged person wielding one of the named items and one gets the trial currently being held.

 

[bluesneakers]

Toronto officer says he tased Sammy Yatim to get medical help faster

The Toronto police officer who discharged his taser at Sammy Yatim after he had been shot eight times testified on Wednesday that he was trying to help the young man.

“I would rather be criticized for trying to help somebody than to stand by and let them die,” said Sergeant Dusan (Dan) Pravica, explaining that he use of the taser would result in quicker medical attention.
...
Sgt. Pravica said police could have waited until “he bled out” and the situation was safe, but he decided to move quickly to immobilize Mr. Yatim and end the danger so he could get medical attention.
...
“You work in a courtroom. I work in the streets,” Sgt. Pravica replied. “How could I know he was dying? He wasn’t saying he was dying.”

[bold mine]

They could have waited until he bled out, okay? These men are heroes.

JMO

 

[Archangel7]

Toronto officer says he tased Sammy Yatim to get medical help faster


[bold mine]
They could have waited until he bled out, okay? These men are heroes.

JMO

Helping Sammy Yatim from himself was achievable up to the first pull of the trigger.

Sammy Yatim never advanced nor did he leave the top deck seating platform of the streetcar until he fell dead onto the lower steps. Even then he was shot at with a handgun 6 more times AND then TASERED.
Sammy Yatim could never have leaped from the top seating deck of the streetcar to the roadway due to the 4 step down configuration and the top header of the door.

Police use of force requires the "suspect" to possess 3 things..... Opportunity, Intent and Ability to cause a life threatening injury or death to the officer in question.

They must all be present and must all stay current as the scenario progresses to the point of the actual UoF.

IMHO, when you have a society irrationally fearful of numerous inanimate objects, it's easy to see how being inserted into a scenario of "a man with a knife" can cause irrational reactions to irrational fears fueled by society and blind one to the real facts at hand.

 

[bluesneakers]

Helping Sammy Yatim from himself was achievable up to the first pull of the trigger.

Sammy Yatim never advanced nor did he leave the top deck seating platform of the streetcar until he fell dead onto the lower steps. Even then he was shot at with a handgun 6 more times AND then TASERED.
Sammy Yatim could never have leaped from the top seating deck of the streetcar to the roadway due to the 4 step down configuration and the top header of the door.

Police use of force requires the "suspect" to possess 3 things..... Opportunity, Intent and Ability to cause a life threatening injury or death to the officer in question.

They must all be present and must all stay current as the scenario progresses to the point of the actual UoF.

IMHO, when you have a society irrationally fearful of numerous inanimate objects, it's easy to see how being inserted into a scenario of "a man with a knife" can cause irrational reactions to irrational fears fueled by society and blind one to the real facts at hand.

Exactly. They could have helped him, but they chose not to.

"A man with a knife." You make an excellent point - maybe as long as he had that knife in his hand, even if he was dead, they were still irrationally afraid of him. It's like they had some kind of tunnel vision on the knife while ignoring the rest of the scene and dismissing the other options they had available.

 

[bluesneakers]

What the Taser cop thought he saw: DiManno
Sgt. Dan Pravica testifies Sammy Yatim was holding a knife in both hands and trying to get up when the officer Tasered him — after he’d taken eight bullets.

To repeat, Pravica did not see and did not hear those shots. What he did see was somebody lying on the floor of the streetcar.

"He had a knife visibly in his right hand. He was pointing it right at me. He was rising … in a rocking motion. The knife never left his hand. He was making guttural sounds. I could see there was movement, he was looking at me and he was making some sort of sound.''

In those chaotic moments, Pravica does notice a bullet wound, actually a "bullet embedded half in and half out of the body."

"My perception was that he was trying to get up. Literally, within a three-second span, I've been told he's been shot. But I don't see any blood spurting. There's no pool of blood near the body.

"He was making every effort to get up with a knife.''

Bulmer: "He could have been getting up?"

Pravica: "He could have been, and I would have had to have borne the brunt of whatever happened.

"He saw the Taser. He was alive. He was looking at me, through me or past me.''

Bulmer: "You didn't know he was actually in the process of dying.''

Pravica: "No, how would I know that? He was looking at me. The knife was pointed straight up. He was holding it in both hands. He appeared to me to be straining to get up.''

The videos do not show Yatim holding the knife in both hands, pointing straight out towards Pravica or struggling to rise.

 

[Archangel7]

Toronto officer says he tased Sammy Yatim to get medical help faster


[bold mine]

They could have waited until he bled out, okay? These men are heroes.

JMO

Reasonability would dictate(even with excluding any/all consideration of the actual initial UoF)that in the interim, with a "suspect" supine on the steps, to approach the suspect and further assess the threat(remember the Triangle still must be met even with the changed scenario of Yatim shot and lying on the steps) prior to the second UoF "event" eg. the subsequent volley of shots.

Again, IMO it is a deadly philosophy for a Society to perpetuate 1. a predominant and irrational fear of inanimate objects.
2. A justice system that perpetuates the same, especially with law abiding citizens.
3. Police Brass that are politicized and perpetuate irrational fear for promotional, political and budgetary gain.
4. A national media that has the same agenda of fear mongering as the Police, Justice, and Politicians.

Too much emphasis on and irrational fear of knives, guns, drawing of guns(Jessie Sansone), spices(Lucky Moose incident) and the constant activation of SWAT over perceived guns and knives handheld cell phones, BB guns, etc. is dangerous and unjustifiable.

That mentality about the "sight" of a knife gets you Sammy Yatim events.

 

[bluesneakers]

Police college instructor says Const. James Forcillo out of options night he shot Sammy Yatim

A use-of-force instructor says Const. James Forcillo didn't always appear to be following training but ultimately decisions he made are his

Paul Bonner, a defensive tactics instructor who teaches at the Ontario Police College, testified he believed Forcillo was out of reasonable options with Yatim still wielding a small knife — saying the use of pepper spray or a baton would not have been advisable.
...
After examining video footage of the incident from that July 2013 night, Bonner agreed Forcillo fired three rounds and then, without saying another word, fires six more times at Yatim as he lies on the floor of the streetcar. Only one of those shots missed.

Bonner also testified that someone who has been shot down poses less of a threat and that he saw no evidence from the video that Yatim was trying to get back up.

 

[bluesneakers]

Sammy Yatim murder trial hears witness tell of terror, chaos

The final witness in the murder trial of Toronto police Const. James Forcillo was forced to interrupt her testimony as she sobbed uncontrollably while the court heard audio of her 911 call on the night Sammy Yatim died.
...
“I need you to know that Yatim was dangerous,” she told the jury after she broke down crying on the stand
The court has heard that the 18-year-old pulled a knife on a crowded streetcar, causing the passengers to flee.
He was then shot and killed by Forcillo as he stood alone at the front of the empty streetcar
...
The three women and 12-year-old girl sat at the back of the streetcar, next to Yatim, who stuck out his leg as they sat talking about the concert and boy bands from their youth.
“I was uncomfortable because he was shifty at first,” said Christy McGregor. “Now I’m getting on guard. I’m thinking, ‘This is weird.’ ”
She said that she then noticed her daughter’s eyes get wide.
...
“You’re glad he was shot by police that night,” Bulmer suggested.
Bridgette McGregor responded: “No.”
Bridgette and Christy McGregor said they didn’t tell their story to police or have any interactions with law enforcement until after Yatim was shot.
The trial resumes Jan. 5 when the Crown and defence begin their closing arguments.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...itness-tell-of-terror-chaos-on-streetcar.html

 

[Archangel7]

Sammy Yatim murder trial hears witness tell of terror, chaos


http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...itness-tell-of-terror-chaos-on-streetcar.html

Regardless of passenger experience/emotion, it still comes down to justifying Use of Force at that moment it was initiated and EVERY time it is initiated.

 

[bluesneakers]

Regardless of passenger experience/emotion, it still comes down to justifying Use of Force at that moment it was initiated and EVERY time it is initiated.

IMO nothing Yatim did before everyone was off the streetcar justifies or explains why they shot him. When they got there and he was alone on the streetcar it was a new scene.

 

[Archangel7]

IMO nothing Yatim did before everyone was off the streetcar justifies or explains why they shot him. When they got there and he was alone on the streetcar it was a new scene.

Correct.
I don't believe there was any passenger/police info exchange prior to UoF, only dispatch's info to Police and what Police witnessed at scene.

 

[bluesneakers]

This case. I keep rereading trying to find a place where Sammy still had a chance, the moment it all went wrong and a young man lost his life at the hands of law enforcement. But it's just not there. If only, if only.

Justice won't bring him back.

Maybe things will change though.

Getting sentimental on Christmas and wishing Sammy's family could be with him.

 

[tarabull]

Sammy had a (good) chance --- but it happened in 'the scene' before Forcillo and Fleckeisen arrived --- Snipped...
"...The streetcar driver stayed with his vehicle, and when Yatim noticed him, he asked if he had a phone. “Yeah I do,” the driver said. “Do you want to call someone?” Yatim said, “Yeah. My dad.”

He then “strolled,” in Rupic’s words, to the rear where he’d been sitting and grabbed his backpack. When he returned to the front of the streetcar, he told the driver, “Go. I’m not going to hold you up for ransom. Get settled. I’m not going to hold you as hostage.”

But the driver stayed, at least for a time.

The escaped passengers, meantime, were calling 911, and just as Yatim was telling the driver he wanted to phone his father, Forcillo and Fleckeisen were dispatched to the scene..."

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...ut-const-forcillo-kept-firing-prosecutor-says

I feel ya Blue!!

:grouphug: for Sammy's family --- around here thoughts are always with those missing loved ones, but especially on a day like today :xmastree:

 

[redheart]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/forcillo-yatim-trial-closing-arguments-1.3389170

Closing arguments begin today in the murder trial of a Toronto police officer who shot and killed a knife-wielding teenager on a TTC streetcar in 2013.

 

[bluesneakers]

Crown calls Toronto officer who killed Sammy Yatim ‘a hothead’

A Crown prosecutor says a Toronto police officer who gunned down a teen on an empty streetcar was “a hothead and a bully” at the time of the confrontation which resulted in the youth’s death.

In closing arguments at the officer’s trial, Crown lawyer Milan Rupic says Const. James Forcillo wanted to assert his authority over a “mouthy, mocking teenager” rather than trying to build a rapport with a person in crisis.

Forcillo's attorney said his actions were justified and in self-defence and should not be criminalized. :blah:

 

[Hatfield]

All JMO
Just got through watching the video of the incident for the first time.

This is a tough one but I am going to have to side with the defense in this case that the officer should not be convicted of anything.

First and foremost there was a person on the bus with a knife who had threatened other passengers and he still had the knife. He was told to drop it many times and not only did he not drop it but he was shaking his head NO in defiance of the officers orders.

Could the officer have tried other remedies first? Absolutely but it doesn't mean they have to IMO. They are making split second judgement calls in an emergency situation and not all the training is remembered when someone with a knife is staring at you and defying your orders to drop the knife.

Very early on in the incident he actually grabbed the girl in the back and tried to stop her from something. She is lucky he didn't harm her. Not only that this person was doing something with his crotch and I can only speculate what it was he was doing but it was not good and sick.

I know that is before LE got there but maybe some people in the street who were on the bus had told the officers what he was doing when they were on the bus. He definitely was chasing the passengers with a knife.

So when he refused to drop the knife he was still a threat to others at that point.

The part where I struggle with is the multiple shots and the extra tazer shot. But I can see the officers point of view. I think they are trained to keep firing till the threat is eliminated and since the guy was still moving and still had knife then I could see why he did what he did.
Everyone is different and another officer may have only fired 1 shot or none at all.

But it is what it is and this officer was the type to use all the force he thought he needed to use. So I don't think he should be found guilty in this case.

I am actually thankful he saved anyone from being hurt by this guy who was out of control.
He did not know it was all due to ectasy or whatever because none of that mattered at the time. All that mattered was a guy was out of control with a knife and threatening to harm others.

Anyway. JMO on how I see it after I watched the video.

Its sad for the guy but he chose to take the drugs that made him crazy and things happen like this when taking strong drugs so he put himself in the situation he was in.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...killed-sammy-yatim-a-hothead/article28049242/