Canada - Sentry killed in War Memorial shooting, Ottawa, 22 Oct 2014

  • #541
Excellent article on the psychology of radicalization wrt other Canadian youths involved in terrorist activity:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/radica...lt-of-non-religious-factors-1.1385827?cmp=rss

Ray Boisvert, former assistant director of CSIS, told CBC News that radicalization of young Canadians is not uncommon.

"This is not about Canadians or a particular group," Boisvert said. "It's about vulnerable youth, falling prey to a nasty subset of religious ideology driven through al-Qaeda narrative, being driven by a sense of adventure, a sense of purpose, a sense of meaning in their life, or perhaps following someone of influence in their life that will lead them to a path of violence."
...

Clark Richard McCauley, a social psychologist and professor at Bryn Mawr College in Pennsylvania, said that a major life change often triggers an individual’s need to make new connections, which can make them more susceptible to radicalization.

By losing "everyday contacts and connections and even love that anchor most of us into our everyday lives," an individual can arrive at a point where they are almost a blank slate and wish to receive new ideas and let in new people, McCauley said.

"That break in connections does not produce political radicalization, but it produces an opportunity for major social change in many different possible directions," McCauley said.



"It’s just an accident who the individual bumps into at that point in their life. So if this person had run into a cult, he might have joined that. Or if he had run into some kind of organization to help wayward youth, he might have thrown himself into that. The point is that this sudden break in his everyday connections leaves him available for new connections, and with new connections come new ideas and new behaviour."
 
  • #542
I think that many people initially associated the murder with something along the lines of radical Muslim ideology. Today, we know that this was the act of a man with serious mental difficulties, drug addiction problems, and a criminal history. Hopefully more people will better understand that his was nothing more than the actions of a man with mental illness. That alone will ease any tensions that resulted from the murder.


My thoughts exactly otto. This event involved one guy, as far as we know.

I very much fear the sweeping powers LE wants now as a result of this one guy - they have wanted these powers for a long time but never succeeded due to what is commonly known as our Charter or Rights. Harper is now trying to 'expedite' these sweeping powers. We should tread very cautiously here, imo.

This experience was very much a polarizing event - no question. As a born and bred Hamiltonian I very much feel for and identify with the Cirillo family and 'Canada's son Nathan Cirillo' - but the event was caused by one guy, as far as we know who was refused the right to travel abroad. There are 90 other guys LE wants to contain and restrict from leaving the country - that doesn't even register as a percent. What will these 90 guys do now? Why do we want to keep them here? Jmo.
 
  • #543
Last year I started a thread (didn't seem to be much interest there) .. regarding the 2 Canadians who were involved in the attack on a natural gas plant in Algeria:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...p-w-info-re-2-militants-involved-in-terrorism

Another 25 y.o. Burnaby BC terror suspect was being sought for joining Islamist fighters in Syria. Bibeau is said to have been wanting to travel to Syria but was having difficulty obtaining his passport.

I don't see what makes Bibeau any more mentally deranged than other young Canadians who are known to have engaged in terrorism.
 
  • #544
from:
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/promin...s-imams-to-vet-new-islamic-converts-1.2067895

While authorities have made links to extremism in both the Ottawa and Quebec attacks ...

Damian Clairmont, converted to Islam as a teen and reportedly died in heavy fighting in the city of Aleppo last winter as a member of the militant group Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.

Clairmont found religion at 17 after a depression, Boudreau says.


from:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...otings-had-a-disturbing-side/article21252419/

Some of the facts of Mr. Zehaf-Bibeau’s life bear broad parallels to another Canadian terrorist who surfaced this week – Martin Couture-Rouleau, another “high-risk traveller” who police shot dead in Quebec Monday after he ran down two soldiers.

But while Mr. Couture-Rouleau is not known to be connected to any other terrorism suspects, Mr. Bathurst said his friend knew Hasibullah Yusufzai, a Vancouver-area resident who was charged in July by the RCMP with travelling to Syria with the intent of joining a deadly terrorist group.

Authorities have issued an international warrant for Mr. Yusufzai, but he remains at large.

Mr. Bathurst said he believes the two cases are distinct. “I don’t think they were linked,” he said, explaining how the Canadian Security Intelligence Service had called him to ask about Mr. Yusufzai but not Mr. Zehaf-Bibeau.

At this time, I don't think we can say this was just mental illness without any connections to other terrorists or terrorist organizations.
 
  • #545
Cpl Nathan Cirillo was standing guard for our/my right to freedom - something fought for by our forefathers - and he believed in that enough to continue the vigilance.

What I don't want is some homegrown politician(s) taking that away. We are facing that now. Who is right? Who decides who is right? Who decides who gets locked up on a possibility?

I get the emotion of men and women in uniform facing the threat of death on a daily basis - not all of them face that though at all times. Imo, that may be the difference - no one in uniform is deciding which rights I will forfeit. The ones wanting to erode what Cpl Cirillo and others stood for wear suits. Expensive ones at that.

I know what the lack of rights look and feel like - have lived in a country where that is an everyday experience. My spouse still lives there - with only 14 months to go. Since 22 Oct 2014 I have a new fear regarding his return - will he be thrown in a cell to explain the last 20+ years of his life? Will we need to forfeit our assets to defend he has done nothing wrong?

Have seen that happen. What about you?
 
  • #546
Cpl Nathan Cirillo was standing guard for our/my right to freedom - something fought for by our forefathers - and he believed in that enough to continue the vigilance.

What I don't want is some homegrown politician(s) taking that away. We are facing that now. Who is right? Who decides who is right? Who decides who gets locked up on a possibility?

I get the emotion of men and women in uniform facing the threat of death on a daily basis - not all of them face that though at all times. Imo, that may be the difference - no one in uniform is deciding which rights I will forfeit. The ones wanting to erode what Cpl Cirillo and others stood for wear suits. Expensive ones at that.

I know what the lack of rights look and feel like - have lived in a country where that is an everyday experience. My spouse still lives there - with only 14 months to go. Since 22 Oct 2014 I have a new fear regarding his return - will he be thrown in a cell to explain the last 20+ years of his life? Will we need to forfeit our assets to defend he has done nothing wrong?

Have seen that happen. What about you?


First the people who face danger on a daily basis include firefighters, EMT's, nurses, mental health workers, LE and border agents as well as a whole host of dedicated people including armed forces. Out of respect for their dedication, we take it for granted that our rights are preserved.

It is usually a handful of nutters that create an aura of suspicion and cool heads must prevail while investigations take place.

As far as security being re-examined, that IS the job of our both our elected and LE to make recommendations and put measures in place.

Bad guys love to skirt the law, good people generally like to keep within the bounds of same.

My worry is more of bending to special interests who want the law to bend to them.



Why would you have to forfeit your assets if you have done nothing wrong?
 
  • #547
from:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...otings-had-a-disturbing-side/article21252419/

Mr. Bathurst said his friend <Bibeau> knew Hasibullah Yusufzai, a Vancouver-area resident who was charged in July by the RCMP with travelling to Syria with the intent of joining a deadly terrorist group.

Authorities have issued an international warrant for Mr. Yusufzai, but he remains at large.

Hasibullah Yusufzai wanted by Interpol:

http://www.interpol.int/notice/search/wanted/2014-51736
 
  • #548
Let's not assume I don't have 'people' that have fought in wars (WWI and WWII) or are in first responder positions. Let's assume I do and that I get it - within Canada that is.

Only 'nutters' come under LE suspicion? Many a thread here would beg to differ.

My spouse has been to Libya - a possible pipeline job that did not pan out 8 - 10 years ago. We have lovely pictures of that trip - but that foray will show up if LE has the right to expand their scrutiny of Canadians traveling from one county to another. He has been to Yemen as well - to teach a two week course in his field. He will not go back even if it means forfeiting his position to teach 2 or 3 times a year and pass on his knowledge to the next generation.

LE operates on a perception of what they see - and when it comes to people overseas in a Muslim country - one will be guilty until proven innocent under the sweeping powers Canadian LE seeks. We have in fact done nothing wrong. If we ever have to prove it - it will cost dearly. Ask anyone that has been forced to have been there, done that.

One item is missing from the sweeping powers Canadian LE seeks - recourse if they are wrong. That will happen to someone. Poor them?

When 9/11 happened I was not worried about my spouse as a Canadian in a Muslim country - today I am.
 
  • #549
Thinking of others during their time of grief is amazing.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...s-out-to-attackers-relatives/article21304096/

Apparently WO Vincent was helping wounded soldiers and families who needed assistance during his recovery from open heart surgery. He was accompanying a soldier to assist in completion of paper work at the Service Centre when he was mowed down. He knew he could not return to work as a firefighter in the CF and was just months from retirement.
His family reached out to both the family of Cpl Cirillo as well as the family of the radicalized young man who killed Vincent.

They recognized that the radicalized young man's family must be suffering too.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...s-out-to-attackers-relatives/article21304096/
 
  • #550
"Law enforcement and U.S. government sources told CBS News the suspect's birth name was Michael Joseph Hall, born in Quebec in 1982. He recently converted to Islam and called himself Michael Abdul Zehaf-Bibeau. Sources said he had a history of drug addiction prior to his conversion"

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/canadian-soldier-shot-at-ottawa-war-memorial/

Very confusing. Did his birth certificate say Michael Joseph Hall? Yet his mum is Susan Bibeau.

Is he the son of Bulgasem Zehaf,who Susan Bibeau was apparently married to until 1999? :confused:

Where does the birth last name Hall come from? Perhaps Zehaf was Bibeau's 2nd husband and/or not the birth father of the shooter?

This is very interesting to me. Where did the more English sounding name come from?

I meant to reply to the question of his name but forgot...
Hall may have been an error, I have read one of his given names was Paul...

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/1...ec-was-repeatedly-brought-in-on-drug-charges/
According to British Columbia Court records, a &#8220;Michael Joseph Paul Zehaf Bibeau&#8221; committed robbery in Vancouver on Dec. 16, 2011, and also racked up a lesser charge of uttering threats.
 
  • #551
LE operates on a perception of what they see - and when it comes to people overseas in a Muslim country - one will be guilty until proven innocent under the sweeping powers Canadian LE seeks.
<rsbm>

What do you mean when you say "LE operates on a perception of what they see ..."? What do you think LE bases their suspicions and investigations on?

ETA: And do we know specifically what "sweeping powers" LE is seeking?

ETA again !! ... I'm not being adversarial by any means Woodland. I actually think I can allay some of those fears without getting into toooooo many specifics.
 
  • #552
SB - better you ask GPM, RB and other men incarcerated but were found innocent after many years. Their perception vs LE investigations will say more than I ever could. Some collected compensation, some did not, and some are currently fighting for compensation. This is where LE powers really make me worried.

LE are not the be all and end all - they make mistakes. They are people after all. Giving them power over our everyday life would be giving up what Cpl Cirillo was guarding against. Imo.
 
  • #553
Every coin has a flip side - every pancake no matter how thin has a flip side.

As well as the Cirillo family, my sympathies also go out to Susan Bibeau - a mother who had not seen her drug addicted son for five years until she had lunch with him a week or so before the tragedy (I get that). Micheal Zehaf-Bebeau also showed up to see his aunt without warning a few days before the shooting rampage - not the fault of family here imo.
 
  • #554
SB - better you ask GPM, RB and other men incarcerated but were found innocent after many years. Their perception vs LE investigations will say more than I ever could. Some collected compensation, some did not, and some are currently fighting for compensation. This is where LE powers really make me worried.

LE are not the be all and end all - they make mistakes. They are people after all. Giving them power over our everyday life would be giving up what Cpl Cirillo was guarding against. Imo.

The cases you refer to were homicide investigations and not related in any way to national or international terrorism cases. Based on personal knowledge and close association, I can assure you the calibre of law enforcement professionals involved in terrorist investigations vs those in botched homicide investigations are a world apart. National security investigators (RCMP, CSIS) don't suddenly jump into a case without evidence. A good example is there only being 90+ individuals on the watch list. There will certainly be more than 90 individuals who have been investigated, but these guys don't latch onto someone without good reason or proceed without justification.

Your upstanding hubby's name isn't going to raise any flags whatsoever just because of ethnicity or because he worked in X country. Will the powers that be know his name? Possibly, but as long as he has no proven ties whatsoever to the type of activity that has the potential to affect national security, he'll be on the good-to-go list without any concerns.
 
  • #555
Wasn't posting just about hubby - have great concern for Canadians traveling in Muslim countries for their livelihood.

Which brings me back to my original question - why exactly does the RCMP, CSIS need sweeping powers over this country because of 90 or so guys? Why not give them a one way ticket to the hell they want? Have them sign a waiver that travel to certain countries means no return? 'They' really need to know every e-mail you send? That is after all what they are seeking.

Again - Cpl Cirillo was not standing guard for this, but against it.
 
  • #556
If Canada&#8217;s metadata laws are going to be anything like our proposed metadata laws, they will be used to indicate (and look back on) who is emailing who, where they are emailing, for how long, and how often. They will not look at the content of the emails unless flags and key words are triggered (for potential terrorist activities, potential child 🤬🤬🤬🤬/sales/abuse, or cases against abusers need further investigation).

It is like a mail clearing house trying to find contraband in mail using sniffer dogs (very simplistic explanation). Unless they scent something, it is not opened up.

They already listen to chatter in and out of the country, seeking key words that warrant further investigation - though not all Aussies seem aware of that.

They are not interested in the small stuff. Some people here are not happy about it either, but it is a bit of a quandary. How do we proactively try to prevent extremely harmful actions in this day and age of internet anonymity? Must we wait until all the damage is done, and then go after the perpetrators? :dunno:

.
 
  • #557
Wasn't posting just about hubby - have great concern for Canadians traveling in Muslim countries for their livelihood.

Which brings me back to my original question - why exactly does the RCMP, CSIS need sweeping powers over this country because of 90 or so guys? Why not give them a one way ticket to the hell they want? Have them sign a waiver that travel to certain countries means no return? 'They' really need to know every e-mail you send? That is after all what they are seeking.

Again - Cpl Cirillo was not standing guard for this, but against it.

Canada doesn't operate in isolation on terrorism investigation, and would know that Mr. A, B or C is in fact travelling to a Muslim country for their livelihood. IF however it is determined and proven through security agency counterparts that Mr. A, B or C is participating in terrorist training or in contact with those who are, and it can be proven ... that person is not allowed entry back into Canada.

The "90 or so guys" ... that's because of how high the burden of proof is to actually get someone on the watch list. Without the bar being set so high, there would be a lot more. Don't for a minute think that those 90 are the only ones that are under investigation for suspicious activity, but it sure as heck isn't the 1.6 billion peace-loving or upstanding Muslims in the world or the multitude of Canadians who travel to all those countries.
 
  • #558
OK then, I heard it here first - never any mistakes. 14 months and 6 days won't come fast enough for me.

North Americans (Canadian and US) teaching overseas should maybe receive caution training (there are thousands upon thousands of them - hubby does not fall under that category btw) for spam or any other way of contact by 'nutters'? Maybe the RCMP or CSIS could lead the way on that - to ensure no mistakes? Let's not wait until after the fact - for Cpl Cirillo and all those that came before him? Sorry, really big on the rights we have won and defend - not willing to give them up for any reason.
 
  • #559
It seems to me that when a homeless drug addict with a criminal history decides that he's going to run away to the Middle East to follow in the footsteps of a desert dwelling lunatic that cuts off people's heads, rather than communicate with words, is plain and simple certifiable nuts. People that want to do that are suffering from a clear cut mental illness.

Nothing about his life was normal ... from homelessness, to addiction, to violence, to delusional thinking, to B&E, to wanting to belong to organizations that would not have him as a member, to murder. This man had problems with magic mushrooms and other illegal drugs. He had problems with his perception of reality. He stole the keys for a religion building and entered illegally. He was rejected by that religious organization because he had a bad character and he behaved abnormally. As a delusional man, what he claimed, and what is reality, were probably not the same.
 
  • #560
OK then, I heard it here first - never any mistakes. 14 months and 6 days won't come fast enough for me.

North Americans (Canadian and US) teaching overseas should maybe receive caution training (there are thousands upon thousands of them - hubby does not fall under that category btw) for spam or any other way of contact by 'nutters'? Maybe the RCMP or CSIS could lead the way on that - to ensure no mistakes? Let's not wait until after the fact - for Cpl Cirillo and all those that came before him? Sorry, really big on the rights we have won and defend - not willing to give them up for any reason.

Effective immediately, social media, such as Facebook and twitter, have to be cleansed of all unknown persons, and high privacy/security setting have to be implemented. This applies to all military personnel and their families. All military references and photos should be removed. If a stranger is persistent about being added as a friend, it is to be reported.

It sounds like the Canadian military is going undercover.

ETA: http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/military-gets-new-social-media-policy-in-wake-of-attacks-1.2070490
 

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