Canada - Tim McLean, 22, decapitated on bus, Winnipeg, 30 July 2008 *Insanity*

When we decided to stop involuntarily committing people to insane asylums,we took the risk that the violent insane would kill.

I bet the murderer has a history of unstable behavior. The poor 19 year old victim had no chance.

Insane asylums are cruel in some ways, perhaps, but not as cruel as death was to this young man,and his family.
 
I think it depends on Canadian law. In the US premeditation requires seconds but could be different in another country. The fact of carrying a knife doesn't intend that you will use it but he did. Over and over. If I were on the jury there would be no question of his intent to kill and that there was no provocation. To me that is the basis of this crime. Insane? Very possibly. But, this kind of insanity is not curable and he should be locked away forever. He is a menace to society.

Good point cp. I am Canadian and I've been following American law for so long I didn't even consider that Canadian law would be different! lol

Here's what lst degree is:

In Canada, murder is classified as either first or second degree.[31]

1. First degree murder is a murder which is (1) planned and deliberate, (2) contracted, (3) committed against an identified peace officer, (4) while committing or attempting to commit one of the following offences (hijacking an aircraft, sexual assault, sexual assault with a weapon, aggravated sexual assault, kidnapping and forcible confinement or hostage taking), (5) while committing criminal harassment, (6) committed during terrorist activity, (7) while using explosives in association with a criminal organization, or (8) while committing intimidation.


2. Second degree murder is all murder which is not first degree murder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder#First_and_second_degree

As far as I'm concerned for reasons aforementioned, I think it was planned and deliberate. Maybe they didn't spend enough time assessing this! Lol - who do I think I am hey? haha. So what did the Crown need, a 'to do list'?What about all the other crimes he committed - dismembering a body after murder, cannibalism, resisting arrest? I think there's one package here deserving of lst degree.
I'd like to know why they're not convinced it was planned. Deliberate for sure.
2nd degree for something like this is mind boggling to me.

Maybe the Crown is second guessing what his defense will be - even though they don't have a psych evaluation yet. (Being facetious).:)
 
To me that is the basis of this crime. Insane? Very possibly. But, this kind of insanity is not curable and he should be locked away forever. He is a menace to society.

Like I said before, I don't even think this will get to trial. He wouldn't even answer the Judge today - can't imagine him cooperating for a psych evaluation. If he keeps this up, the Judge will have to declare him as unfit to be tried.
He'll be locked away in an institution for the criminally insane for the rest of his life.
 
When we decided to stop involuntarily committing people to insane asylums,we took the risk that the violent insane would kill.

I bet the murderer has a history of unstable behavior. The poor 19 year old victim had no chance.

Insane asylums are cruel in some ways, perhaps, but not as cruel as death was to this young man,and his family.

You're right about the asylums. Our government is actually going to reopen facilities for the mentally ill. 90% of our homeless are wandering around with schizophrenia. I'm sure it has something to do with the Olympics being here in 2010 so as to get the worst ones off the street. I'll take any reason right now as long as these poor people can get some help.

To tell you the truth, I didn't sleep well last nite because of this. Today I'm :furious: I can't imagine what this poor young man's family is going through. His mother was on an Alaskan cruise when notified. An absolute nightmare for everyone.
 
When we decided to stop involuntarily committing people to insane asylums,we took the risk that the violent insane would kill.

I bet the murderer has a history of unstable behavior. The poor 19 year old victim had no chance.

Insane asylums are cruel in some ways, perhaps, but not as cruel as death was to this young man,and his family.
:clap::clap::clap::clap:

I will never understand people who think we shouldn't use involuntary commitment for people who have a history of violence that refuse to take their meds.

No one will be surprised when it comes out this guy stopped his meds and nobody could do anything about it.
 
I was wondering if they decided on 2nd Degree Mulder for right now as they have no indication from the killer (the articles say he hasn't talked at all) that there was premeditation?

Couldn't they change the charge to 1st Degree Mulder if in the psych evaluation he gives indication of premeditation?

Personally, I think there could be premeditation. There are plenty of possible points as to when it could have formed in the killer's mind.

For example, brining the knife on the trip in general, I've heard of murder cases where bringing a gun alone proves premeditation. Why bring the knife? Unless he just came from say, hunting/camping, I really don't see why he needs to have it. I'm also curious what type of knife it is-- large?

Also, the articles say they took a break before the incident-- the killer and victim where outside, smoking (? or others were) and then after that the killer moved from the front of the bus where he was to next to the victim-- could moving the seat be when the premeditation happened and outside was when he narrowed down his target? Seems possible.

Or maybe it was sometime in the roughly 1 1/2 hours that he was sitting next to the victim.

Either way, I hope the police get something from the psych evaluation and if there's an indication of premeditation, they refile charges.

And lastly, we've started to hear about the victim, I'm wondering why no one has spoken up about the killer? If he worked, co-workers? Family? Friends? Neighbors? I get they might want to keep quiet considering the crime, but on my local news, I've seen friends and family speak out in murders and other crimes ("He was a loving father, I can't believe he did this" -- things like that).
 
I can't get over how every account I've read describes the killer as "calm." That's one of the most bone-chilling details of all. That says to me either the guy was in complete, total psychosis and the murder was the outgrowth of a delusion, or he was a complete, total psychopath and the act of murder caused him no stress at all.

Either possibility is equally terrifying.
We hear this in cases time after time, Steve. The perps in school shootings, public murders, and the like are often described as "calm" as they carry out these horrific crimes on innocent, unsuspecting people. Their reasons are varied for the attacks, but the common thread seems to be hitting the point of no return...meaning when they finally decide to act on that impulse they no longer have the anxiety or fear while carrying them out.

This man seems to be like some of those who go along as "nice" guys with low paying jobs who appear to flip out only to find they did have their own twisted reasoning and plan. Mental illness would fit, but he could as easily have decided on a personal vendetta against people in general. I find it interesting he waited until they were on a rather isolated stretch of highway when people were resting and least expected it. Was he planning this and cognizant of his actions then?
 
And lastly, we've started to hear about the victim, I'm wondering why no one has spoken up about the killer? If he worked, co-workers? Family? Friends? Neighbors? I get they might want to keep quiet considering the crime, but on my local news, I've seen friends and family speak out in murders and other crimes ("He was a loving father, I can't believe he did this" -- things like that).

I've read (somewhere) that he has a wife and she said he left in a rush - said he had an emergency or something.

From the article I posted above:

"I believe he was having some marital problems," said Augert. When he met with Li to hire him back as a newspaper distributor, he said, "you could almost read between the lines" from the way Li was talking "that there was something not right there."

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/story.html?id=ba3498aa-995c-4f03-92f7-1a3cb0c79532
 
Family angry at RCMP. Found out about their Tim from a journalist:

Family reaction

Earlier Friday, McLean's family said they were angry at how long it took the RCMP to inform them that McLean was the victim.

CTV's Murray Oliver visited the family's house in Winnipeg Friday and spoke to McLean's sister.

"She told us that in fact they didn't know that Tim was the victim in this crime until last night when a journalist came to their house and knocked on the door," said Oliver.

"Obviously they're wondering why the RCMP did not come and inform the family for such a long time."

He said the family had been following the story when the news first broke early Thursday.

"Then, to get the knock on the door, and to find out that it's your son, it's your brother -- I can't imagine how it must have been for them and that shock is written on their faces," said Oliver.
 
Or maybe it was sometime in the roughly 1 1/2 hours that he was sitting next to the victim.
I read somewhere that he was sitting next to Tim for about 20 minutes. I'm not sure which account would be correct. Has anyone seen a timeline that would show this detail?
 
Family angry at RCMP. Found out about their Tim from a journalist:

Family reaction

Earlier Friday, McLean's family said they were angry at how long it took the RCMP to inform them that McLean was the victim.

CTV's Murray Oliver visited the family's house in Winnipeg Friday and spoke to McLean's sister.

"She told us that in fact they didn't know that Tim was the victim in this crime until last night when a journalist came to their house and knocked on the door," said Oliver.

"Obviously they're wondering why the RCMP did not come and inform the family for such a long time."

He said the family had been following the story when the news first broke early Thursday.

"Then, to get the knock on the door, and to find out that it's your son, it's your brother -- I can't imagine how it must have been for them and that shock is written on their faces," said Oliver.

Wow. I can't imagine following a story, only to find out hours later that the victim was a relative!! I can't believe they weren't notified immediately by the authorities!
 
Did the victim have long hair as in the facebook picture shown, at the time of the murder? If this was some sick fantasy of the killer, he may have been specifically looking for a male victim with long hair, so he could carry the head around.
The man sounds like a sociopath. A truly insane person would be rambling of delusions or talking to voices. This man will say yes or no to the police, won't talk to the judge. He knows he's stalling time and messing with LE. An insane person would not have the rational to know to do that. Granted it's an act of insanity, yet he seems to be more of a sociopath than truly insane. Just stick him in a regular prison for life.
 
I hope LE gets a look at Li's computer as well, maybe they can dig into the harddrive and see what kind of websites he went to. He may have frequented horror sites or those of such.
 
I know we all would like to think that we would jump in and help in a situation like this, but we really cannot say how we would react. This was a bus, with narrow aisles.. they couldnt surround the man in any type of organized attack. Most of the people probably didn't even know what was going on until they exited the bus. They were probably woken from sleep, or disturbed from there music, ipods, etc, and exited in a panic.

Unless this was a mother, or father seeing this (where your parental instincts might have you screaming and jumping on his back, biting and pulling hair..etc) , I cannot imagine that very many unarmed, untrained people would've had the sensibility, and wherewithall to stop this. You would have to be a trained fighter.. NavySeal, Army Ranger type person, IMO, to have known how to stop this attack.

I suspect the victim mercifully died quickly, and unlike Nick Berg, he was not alive when he was beheaded.
 
I read somewhere that he was sitting next to Tim for about 20 minutes. I'm not sure which account would be correct. Has anyone seen a timeline that would show this detail?

On YouTube There is a 7 minute interview with the man who was sitting directly in front of the killer and victim (who were in the last seats in front of the bathroom) who said that Li (the killer) was sitting toward the front and only moved to the aisle seat next to the victim after the last stop - which was about 20 minutes before he went crazy and stated stabbing the man sitting next to him in the window seat.

The man who was killed was evidently NOT asleep the entire time Li was sitting next to him, but was texting with his family and girlfriend until just minutes before Li started stabbing him. There has been speculation that Li is a paranoid schizophrenic and something that the victim did (texting, wearing headphones, playing with his cell phone) made him believe the victim was an alien or evil and MUST be killed (or beheaded). Who knows, but there are several interviews with passengers on YouTube and obviously Li went crazy, but in a calm and robotic way - complete dis-association with the victim as a human (he could have been having visual hallucinations as well) and seeing the entire event as a triumph over an "evil thing" - which is a hallmark of severe mental illness. Li may (or may not) have thought the other passengers were also "aliens" or "evil" - it is probably good he was contained safely. It seems Li was not sociopathic but that there was something much deeper - a complete disconnect from reality, like severe schizophrenia where you only hear the voices in your head telling you to "kill the alien".

BTW, not all schizophrenics talk BACK to the voices audibly, some have the entire conversation in their heads or even on paper. I can tell you from personal experience that sometimes PS's do NOT mutter or talk back to the "voices" and that they can appear totally normal and then 5 minutes later be completely disassociated from reality and everything around them. For some reason KNIVES are a favorite weapon of theirs, not sure why? When I 1st saw this I felt immediately that it was severe, untreated, delusional, paranoid schizophrenia - it has most of the hallmarks - and the poor victim was just in the wrong place doing something totally innocent when this guy went totally off into the freak-zone thinking he had to protect himself and possibly "the world" from the evil "thing" sitting next to him. I am sure that the bus ride (in the dark an a desolate highway) also had something to do with setting this in motion and sometime during the stop, Li started to see the victim as a threat, one he had to behead to "save the world" because only HE could see the "evil one".

The killer has NO RECORD of anything but it is reported that in recent months he had begun to act increasingly strange and take off on unplanned trips and telling his wife and employer totally different stories - the wife hadn't seen him in days (since before the weekend) , the boss saw him last on Mon or Tues - he told everyone one something different - family emergency, job interview. He was obviously losing touch with reality as there was no job interview and no emergency. Once the illness and stress becomes too much, sometimes the PS begins to wander - looking for or hiding from the evil, the aliens, whatever. And he isn't talking becuase the "voices" are telling him they "captured" him and he must never tell what he "knows". Until he is properly medicated, he will not speak or help in his own defense - he cannot. The mental assessment will find he is almost catatonic in his current state, he will not speak....at all. This man beheaded and mutilated another human being and never spoke a single WORD the entire time.

There is a LOT of material on YouTube - a 1st hand account from the primary witness to the entire event.

My Opinion
 
On YouTube There is a 7 minute interview with the man who was sitting directly in front of the killer and victim (who were in the last seats in front of the bathroom) who said that Li (the killer) was sitting toward the front and only moved to the aisle seat next to the victim after the last stop - which was about 20 minutes before he went crazy and stated stabbing the man sitting next to him in the window seat.

The man who was killed was evidently NOT asleep the entire time Li was sitting next to him, but was texting with his family and girlfriend until just minutes before Li started stabbing him. There has been speculation that Li is a paranoid schizophrenic and something that the victim did (texting, wearing headphones, playing with his cell phone) made him believe the victim was an alien or evil and MUST be killed (or beheaded). Who knows, but there are several interviews with passengers on YouTube and obviously Li went crazy, but in a calm and robotic way - complete dis-association with the victim as a human (he could have been having visual hallucinations as well) and seeing the entire event as a triumph over an "evil thing" - which is a hallmark of severe mental illness. Li may (or may not) have thought the other passengers were also "aliens" or "evil" - it is probably good he was contained safely. It seems Li was not sociopathic but that there was something much deeper - a complete disconnect from reality, like severe schizophrenia where you only hear the voices in your head telling you to "kill the alien".

BTW, not all schizophrenics talk BACK to the voices audibly, some have the entire conversation in their heads or even on paper. I can tell you from personal experience that sometimes PS's do NOT mutter or talk back to the "voices" and that they can appear totally normal and then 5 minutes later be completely disassociated from reality and everything around them. For some reason KNIVES are a favorite weapon of theirs, not sure why? When I 1st saw this I felt immediately that it was severe, untreated, delusional, paranoid schizophrenia - it has most of the hallmarks - and the poor victim was just in the wrong place doing something totally innocent when this guy went totally off into the freak-zone thinking he had to protect himself and possibly "the world" from the evil "thing" sitting next to him. I am sure that the bus ride (in the dark an a desolate highway) also had something to do with setting this in motion and sometime during the stop, Li started to see the victim as a threat, one he had to behead to "save the world" because only HE could see the "evil one".

The killer has NO RECORD of anything but it is reported that in recent months he had begun to act increasingly strange and take off on unplanned trips and telling his wife and employer totally different stories - the wife hadn't seen him in days (since before the weekend) , the boss saw him last on Mon or Tues - he told everyone one something different - family emergency, job interview. He was obviously losing touch with reality as there was no job interview and no emergency. Once the illness and stress becomes too much, sometimes the PS begins to wander - looking for or hiding from the evil, the aliens, whatever. And he isn't talking becuase the "voices" are telling him they "captured" him and he must never tell what he "knows". Until he is properly medicated, he will not speak or help in his own defense - he cannot. The mental assessment will find he is almost catatonic in his current state, he will not speak....at all. This man beheaded and mutilated another human being and never spoke a single WORD the entire time.

There is a LOT of material on YouTube - a 1st hand account from the primary witness to the entire event.

My Opinion
Do you have the youtube link?

Very good post, and It seems to be the only thing that would "make sense" out of the senseless killing.

If this is the case, then I put him in the same category as I put Andrea Yates in. Criminally insane.. never to see the outside world again.
 
It could have been some fantasy he's had for awhile; and the stressers in his life adding up, gave him reason in his mind to go out and do it. A hunting knife is a far cry from a pocket knife or swiss army knife.
 
Mentally ill or not.. I cannot imagine the hate the victims families must be feeling towards him. I wish his life could be quickly ended. Even with mental illness, society cannot risk having people like him among us. Which means I might have to change my thoughts on Andrea Yates...

I would not mind if the mentally ill.. criminally sickos were put down. They are just too much of a risk to the rest of us.
 

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