Canada - Tim McLean, 22, decapitated on bus, Winnipeg, 30 July 2008 *Insanity*

[SeriouslySearching]

Well, OK...maybe I was wrong. This guy certainly does sound certifiable!! OMG!

 

[KarlK]

Mentally ill or not.. I cannot imagine the hate the victims families must be feeling towards him. I wish his life could be quickly ended. Even with mental illness, society cannot risk having people like him among us. Which means I might have to change my thoughts on Andrea Yates...

I would not mind if the mentally ill.. criminally sickos were put down. They are just too much of a risk to the rest of us.

Well, while it wouldn't be much of a risk to bet Li's heading straight for a penal institution for the criminally insane for the rest of his life (I checked and they do that in Canada) I think it's too early to draw comparisons with Yates. In her case the overly religious family environment was a major factor (reading the Bible doesn't cure psychosis) and her shrink was incompetent and/or negligent and failed to act on obvious clues that her condition was rapidly deteriorating.

Li's actions appear more gratuitous and unpredictable, some would say more "evil" based on the apparent complete lack of motivation and the postmortem mutilations he (very publicly) performed on the victim. Unlike Yates I don't think Li believed he was sending his victim to a "better place", in fact he reminds me of something worse than Hannibal Lecter, I have difficulty conceiving that such individuals exist outside fiction. It's incredibly repulsive, I find myself wishing that the cops had shot him while he was alone on the bus even though that would have landed them in legal trouble, but on the other hand I think there is the need for science to probe this individual

 

[jilly]

It's incredibly repulsive, I find myself wishing that the cops had shot him while he was alone on the bus even though that would have landed them in legal trouble, but on the other hand I think there is the need for science to probe this individual

Well, I don't know what "legal trouble" they would have been in. Imo he was in the commission of other horrible crimes - cutting up a corpse & cannibalism when they watched him in the bus for "several hours".

 

[FlowerChild]

Well, I don't know what "legal trouble" they would have been in. Imo he was in the commission of other horrible crimes - cutting up a corpse & cannibalism when they watched him in the bus for "several hours".

Even the Police cannot justify shooting someone for cannibalism and mutilation of a corpse - neither of those is a threat to the safety of LE officers or others. Li's behavior, while criminal and crazy, doesn't justify use of deadly force. Li's victim (may he RIP) was obviously already dead and was no longer in danger when LE arrived, thus no justification for killing the suspect. LE has to follow the LAW - even when faced with something this horrible - their restraint is what separates us from people in society like Mr Li. LE cannot act as judge and jury after the fact because the person is obviously guilty and crazy - their job is to protect others (they did that), themselves (the did that) and put the suspect in custody (they did that). I am sure each and every RCMP on that scene would have happily executed Mr Li on the spot, but they did their JOBS and assured that Mr Li will pay for his crime - knowing Mr Li's apprehension was their sworn duty. It was not their duty to pass judgment or decide his his fate.

THIS is the reason I could never be a LE officer-- I would never be able to muster the sort of strength and control over my emotions that LE must DEPEND ON to do their jobs. Vigilante justice (instant judgment and execution) is easy, upholding the law and bringing the evil in the world to justice and leaving their fate to a judge or jury of their peers is a very VERY difficult task - one that those sworn to UPHOLD the law carry out every hour of every day. The RCMP deserves our admiration and our gratitude for doing their jobs with HONOR while enduring the horror and pain they experienced in bringing Mr Li to his judgment.

Mr Li will never take another free breath and society will be safe from him. Maybe this will result in changes in the way we deal with the mentally ill. Some people cannot be allowed to live in society unsupervised and while the mentally ill DO deserve proper and respectful treatment - there are some who must receive that treatment in a setting that protects us from them and them from themselves - for LIFE. Mr Li should NOT have been free to do this crime in the 1st place but because of rights issues and budget issues, there are probably thousands of people just as crazy and just as ill and just as likely to do something similar walking around in the US and Canada right now.

All I can say is that in the US, the Mr Li would have had a GUN (or 2 or 3) and possibly killed the entire busload of people instead of just one.

My Opinion

 

[SeriouslySearching]

They were just waiting on that to give them a reason. He didn't so they didn't. I am sure he will be a case study for someone. Glad he is no one I would ever want to study because I would be throwing up on him the whole time.

 

[kline]

I was talking to a Greyhound driver one time and he was saying there are alot of menatlly ill people that just ride the bus back and forth,
I know the few times Ive had to use one it was unerving some of the people who were obviously not right.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Even the Police cannot justify shooting someone for cannibalism and mutilation of a corpse - neither of those is a threat to the safety of LE officers or others. Li's behavior, while criminal and crazy, doesn't justify use of deadly force. Li's victim (may he RIP) was obviously already dead and was no longer in danger when LE arrived, thus no justification for killing the suspect.

I absolutely agree. While beheading the victim and (apparently) eating parts of him were horrific, those actions alone were not a threat to any living person.

Mr Li will never take another free breath and society will be safe from him. Maybe this will result in changes in the way we deal with the mentally ill. Some people cannot be allowed to live in society unsupervised and while the mentally ill DO deserve proper and respectful treatment - there are some who must receive that treatment in a setting that protects us from them and them from themselves - for LIFE. Mr Li should NOT have been free to do this crime in the 1st place but because of rights issues and budget issues, there are probably thousands of people just as crazy and just as ill and just as likely to do something similar walking around in the US and Canada right now.

The only thing I disagree with here is the speculation that there are thousands of mentally ill people likely to do the same thing in the US and Canada.

Mentally ill people are not more likely than other people to commit violent crimes; statistically, they have a lower violent crime rate than the population at large. People with mental illness are actually many times more likely to be the victims of crime, both nonviolent and violent than are the general population.

The way we in the US (I don't know about Canada) deal with the mentally ill is not very good. For all the advances in treatment options in the last 40 years, we're still not able to help many of the mentally ill. Additionally, the struggle that some people with mental illnesses face in trying to survive just worsens their illnesses.

There is so much stigma attached to mental illness and the vast majority of the fears people have of the mentally ill are absolutely groundless.

Yes, there are a few mentally ill people who commit violent (and often highly publicised) crimes. But look at the statistics--the truth is that mentally ill people have a lot more to fear than the "normal" people in society.

 

[MeoW333]

Does the RCMP have tasers? They could have tased the man, instead of watching him like a carnival cannibal sideshow for several hours. That seems odd to me. Are they not trained to deal with such an individual?

...if he were catatonic, i would think he would not speak at all; including answering yes or no to questions the police asked him. His yes or no answers show that he is at least aware of the questions being asked. I really think he is just being difficult with authorities. He lived out some sick fantasy he had and is a sociopath.

 

[FlowerChild]

I absolutely agree. While beheading the victim and (apparently) eating parts of him were horrific, those actions alone were not a threat to any living person.



The only thing I disagree with here is the speculation that there are thousands of mentally ill people likely to do the same thing in the US and Canada.

Mentally ill people are not more likely than other people to commit violent crimes; statistically, they have a lower violent crime rate than the population at large. People with mental illness are actually many times more likely to be the victims of crime, both nonviolent and violent than are the general population.

The way we in the US (I don't know about Canada) deal with the mentally ill is not very good. For all the advances in treatment options in the last 40 years, we're still not able to help many of the mentally ill. Additionally, the struggle that some people with mental illnesses face in trying to survive just worsens their illnesses.

There is so much stigma attached to mental illness and the vast majority of the fears people have of the mentally ill are absolutely groundless.

Yes, there are a few mentally ill people who commit violent (and often highly publicised) crimes. But look at the statistics--the truth is that mentally ill people have a lot more to fear than the "normal" people in society.

Having had some significant experience with Paranoid Schizophrenics myself I can say that many of them are a threat to themselves and in some situations, a threat to others. They are often not reliable about taking meds in an unstructured, unsupervised environment and as their parents age, the parents often can no longer physically handle the PS in an agitated state. It can be exceeding difficult for siblings to be responsible for their care - especially if they have children in the home.

Sadly there are NO FACILITIES set up for PS care UNLESS they hurt themselves or someone else - and even then, as soon as they are back on their meds and functioning well, the hospital MUST release them. And the cycle begins again. This is why so many PS end up on the streets wandering and muttering and wearing tinfoil hats - there is no-one or no place willing to undertake a supervised living arrangement and the PS are often indigent - they cannot hold down a job or manage money and are often victims of crimes themselves.

And I do believe there are thousands of people in the US with a severe debilitating illness that can result in them killing themselves, their children or family members - not to mention rare cases like this where they manifest their severe psychosis with strangers. Since the US did away with subsidized sheltered living and medical care for the mentally ill adults who cannot function in society alone, it just sent these people out onto our streets to be victims themselves, potentially hurt innocent people, or die of neglect. We have LOUSY programs in the USA for the mentally ill, we feel if we ignore PTSD, postpartum psychosis, paranoid schizophrenia, severe bipolar disorder and deep clinical depression, maybe they will just go away. How many people have to die before we, the citizens of the greatest country in the world, demand that these people be afforded proper care for their illnesses and a safe home to live in FREE?

Nope, we sit on our collectives azzes and in our safe suburban homes and complain about the homeless issue and yet we won't vote for a penny to set up programs to treat the underlying cause of many homeless people's sad existence...debilitating mental illness. And even though it looks (and feels) good to have them, it isn't enough to say "here's a shelter and a meal". Until we can find a suitable way (and enact laws) to retain these people in a restricted but LOVING sheltered living environment where treatment is mandated, we are never going to eliminate the homeless. And we certainly are NOT going to prevent senseless and 100% preventable deaths from severe mental illness. Andrea Yates should have been in the HOSPITAL, but her Dr and her insurance company and her husband were more interested in saving a buck and protecting their own interests than how sick Andrea was. The deaths of 5 children were a direct result of a mental health system that is BROKEN and a FARCE. Handing out some pills and hoping the person can maintain the regimin is NOT TREATMENT, its a bandage that looks all perfect on paper and appears pretty and clean on the outside, but is in reality a nasty mess INSIDE that will eventually kill the person - and could put the people in his or her life in danger as well.

And for those who believe this is the result of a sociopath please understand that sociopaths don't walk around for 40 years and show no signs or manifest a single sociopthic trait and then suddenly go from normal and functioning to to violent killing and canibalism in 20 minutes. Sociopaths don't have a sudden break from reality and by nature, they don't act publicly - sociopaths are perfectly sane and understand right from wrong, and they don't want to be caught - they KNOW what they are doing isn't normal and they go to great lengths to disguise their sickness from society. That's why they are often so difficult to catch - around others they can appear totally normal.

This case is much more like the cases of severely depressed men who calmly get a gun and kill 20 co-workers or the husband/father who kills his wife and children rather than lose them - cases which often end in suicide in suicide by cop. I don't think this is what this was though, my impression at least for now, is that this case is a textbook example of an unmedicated person who has had a severe PS "break" from reality and found himself in a situation out of his control where the "enemy" was all around and was trying to "trick"him/her with lies and illusions.

The clue here is the blatant, "look at me" public decapitation and cannibalism - those are strong taboos ingrained in 99.9% of people in our western society - someone who is merely sociopathic would NEVER manifest those behaviors publicly - but Li did - in fact seemed to be PROUD of his accomplishment - taunting onlookers as if he was displaying a trophy kill to the enemy. And once the adrenalin sudsided and the voices became quieter, Li went into a near catatonic state where he could barely communicate or acknowledge others. This "aftermath" is common in PS - if they cannot get to their habitual "safe place" they literally hide inside their own mind with the familiar voices drowning out the real world. Li is aware of the world around him, but he is incapable of interacting with it in his current state. He just want to be left alone - his mind cannot handle anything external - he is totally focused inward - even his own body barely exists in his mind.

Mentally ill people deserve so much more from society - we cannot keep looking away in shame - we MUST not just acknowlege the mentally ill, but reach out to them and enfold them in a safe embrace.

My Opinion

 

[lizzybeth]

I was talking about this case with my cousin. Her dad, my uncle, was a Greyhound bus driver until he retired. She was talking about that there really isn't any security as far as checking people before they board the bus. They can bring on guns, knives, etc. One of my uncle's dear friends, a fellow bus driver, was murdered while driving. That was probably twenty or more years ago. You would think they would implement some type of security. I guess that's why bus tickets are cheaper than plane tickets.

I still can't get this young man's face out of my mind. My son turns twenty-two tomorrow and I couldn't handle losing him but it would be much worse to know that he suffered so much before he died.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

On YouTube There is a 7 minute interview with the man who was sitting directly in front of the killer and victim (who were in the last seats in front of the bathroom) who said that Li (the killer) was sitting toward the front and only moved to the aisle seat next to the victim after the last stop - which was about 20 minutes before he went crazy and stated stabbing the man sitting next to him in the window seat.

Okay, that matches what I had heard.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I am sure that the bus ride (in the dark an a desolate highway) also had something to do with setting this in motion and sometime during the stop, Li started to see the victim as a threat, one he had to behead to "save the world" because only HE could see the "evil one".

I wonder where Li was going at the time. Why was he on the bus? Was he simply wandering or was this a part of a plan that he had formulated?

 

[Kiki]

I am really impressed with not only the compassion shown to the victims in this thread, but also Li himself and people who are mentally ill in general. He was obviously a very sick man. One of the difficulties in treating people who are mentally ill is that they often don't realise they're sick and it's very difficult, if not imposssible, to force help upon them unless they are an obvious risk to society or themselves.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

And once the adrenalin sudsided and the voices became quieter, Li went into a near catatonic state where he could barely communicate or acknowledge others. This "aftermath" is common in PS - if they cannot get to their habitual "safe place" they literally hide inside their own mind with the familiar voices drowning out the real world. Li is aware of the world around him, but he is incapable of interacting with it in his current state. He just want to be left alone - his mind cannot handle anything external - he is totally focused inward - even his own body barely exists in his mind.

His demeanor in court appeared as if he might even have felt ashamed after the fact.

 

[brighidin]

Does the RCMP have tasers? They could have tased the man, instead of watching him like a carnival cannibal sideshow for several hours. That seems odd to me. Are they not trained to deal with such an individual?

Oh, they have tasers. They are taser happy. A month or two ago, they tasered an 80 year old man in the hospital. they tasered and killed a prospective immigrant who had just gotten off a plane from Poland and who was disoriented and acting up. A couple of 15 year olds have been tasered recently. And then they stand there and watch the really crazy murderers for hours.

 

[CMorrison64]

This is just the most saddest story ever. That poor young man. And the witnesses, I can't even imagine how they feel seeing this happen. I'd be traumatized for life.

 

[KarlK]

You would think they would implement some type of security.

They probably will now that Greyhound's CEO himself has commented on this case. Obviously he's a bit nervous about lawsuits and is aware that prompt action regarding bus security is expected from them.

 

[KarlK]

Oh, they have tasers. They are taser happy. A month or two ago, they tasered an 80 year old man in the hospital. they tasered and killed a prospective immigrant who had just gotten off a plane from Poland and who was disoriented and acting up. A couple of 15 year olds have been tasered recently. And then they stand there and watch the really crazy murderers for hours.

Many police agencies in North America have had tazer incidents in the last couple of years, not all of them fatal but quite serious (including a cop who accidentally tazed himself and almost died from it.) As a result they have been told to limit its use and some agencies even had tazers removed from their arsenal.

My impression of the crime scene is that the cops weren't 100% sure there wasn't someone else still alive and still on the bus at the time and that's why they didn't fire at the bus or smoke Li out with teargas. Tazers probably can't be fired through tempered glass, they'd just bounce off.

 

[CyberLaw]

In a column in our hometown newspaper there is a column on Ethics.

The newspaper journalist indicated that there was nothing anyone could have done to prevent this from happening and the driver and bus passengers did the "right" thing by exiting the bus to safety.

From the stab wounds and amount of blood and the "sheer" calmness of the murderer, I would have done the same thing, as there was no "hope" that the man whom was stabbed was still alive.

But this was horrific, I can't help but think of some brutal movie that this happened in, not a bus in the middle of the prairie province. Not a young man whom was dozing off, maybe listening to music.

Today, the family of the victim made a statement that this was a nice person that everyone liked and he was just going home to visit him family.

They declined to take questions and wanted some privacy.

No one can blame them, especially in regards to the details that have leaked" about "that Hannibal Lecter" stunt. That is the worst detail that I can think of.

 

[FlowerChild]

They probably will now that Greyhound's CEO himself has commented on this case. Obviously he's a bit nervous about lawsuits and is aware that prompt action regarding bus security is expected from them.

Implementing any sort of security on a BUS is going to be impossible unless they start charging a LOT MORE for tickets to pay for it. Buses make several stops to pick up passengers on a route and they also stop for food breaks and driver breaks. There would have to be security at EVERY STOP and every passenger who got off would have to be re-screened at every stop. Can you imagine the delay if every passenger had to go thru a security screen (like the airport) at every stop? And once you have equipment you have to hire 24/7/365 staff to DO the screening - the TSA can't keep enough security cleared screeners and now Greyhound is supposed to have them at every stop?? And every stop would have to have a specially built restricted "secure area" for the passengers to wait in after being screened - with the buses parked INSIDE this area. And this doesn't even include screening the LUGGAGE .

It is going to be darned hard (and incredibly expensive) to implement even a basic passenger screening on buses. Most of the small town "pick-ups" are at remote locations with no real "terminal" - just a gas station or restaurant - who is going to pay to put in screening devices and STAFF at THOSE locations. It sounds good to have these measures in place but it will likely price Greyhound into bankruptcy. Bus trips are the ONLY affordable form of mass transit for many low income people - now, with gas prices rising many people can't even afford a bus ticket - once the price becomes close to the cost of air travel (and the hassles similar) Greyhound will fold and there will be NO cross-country transportation available to most working poor or the elderly - and NO transportation from many small towns to urban centers.

For the same reason, trains are not as secure as airplanes - the idea that we must screen everyone for any public activity has to stop somewhere - I don't want to live in a country where I have to be screened to go into a mall or a church or a hospital or a park and it will be astronomically expensive (which ends up coming out of OUR pockets!). There just isn't any way the Govt and companies can be responsible for our 100% safety everywhere, all the time. We sell guns and knives legally - with little or no restrictions - so long as we do THAT, there will ALWAYS be the chance people will use them to kill OTHER PEOPLE. There are two sides - if we want the right to bear arms, then we also have to expect (and accept the risk) that those weapons may be used to kill innocent people.

In Texas people can carry concealed weapons on them 24/7 with a permit - people here can be armed everywhere - are we now going to prohibit the people here from say, driving their car while carrying a knife of gun because they might kill someone while driving? We can't expect to be safe all the time - bad things happen - we have a prohibition on drunk driving and yet drunk drivers kill people here every DAY! Life is risky - we just have to be careful and do our best to survive and leave the rest to God or fate or whatever we believe in. Nobody ever said life was going to be perfect or without risk and NONE of us knows when or how we will leave this life.

I for one, want LESS Govt/Invasion of privacy in my life...Not MORE! I could die tomorrow at the hands of someone else - but I'll happily take that risk vs having every facet of my life and my personal privacy invaded so we can all be "security screened" for our own "protection".

My Opinion