Caravan of 4000 migrants heading to the US/Mexico border

[bluesneakers]

No, they don't. There is no credible evidence that these people would face torture or death if they returned to their country, by the government of their country.

Oh, I didn't realize you'd interviewed them and heard their stories or read their applications.

 

[bluesneakers]

Pressure turns to Mexico as migrant caravan heads for border

U.S.-bound migrant caravans have been going on for years — with traveling in numbers seen as offering protection from assaults, robberies, even shakedowns by police. They’re also a cheaper alternative to the $7,000 to $10,000 that smugglers, charge for passage to the border, Leutert noted.

Still, it wasn’t until this year that the caravans received widespread attention.

“There have been these caravans through the years, but they become prominent because the president tweets about them,” Selee said.

 

[K_Z]

Some are asking, why is this caravan "Mexico's problem" to handle?

It is unquestionably Mexico's problem to handle.

It's quite simple, according to international law.

Because Mexico is the "first country of asylum" under the UNHCR (UN High Commission on Refugees) for those claiming the "need" for asylum, AND Mexico is designated as a "safe third country" for refugees seeking a "credible threat" or unsafe conditions in their country of origin.

The caravan citizens of El Salvador and Honduras cannot "skip over" Mexico to claim refugee status or make claims of asylum any where they wish-- ie, the U.S.

Mexico is not a highway. There will be serious, very serious consequences for Mexico if they do not adhere to international law. That is the leverage that both the U.N., and the U.S. bring to bear.

This is the exact same situation that unfolded in Greece in 2015 when the masses of middle east and African citizens decided to "enter" europe via Greece. Few to none of them wanted to remain in Greece, because Greece is poor, has massive financial and economic problems, and would not "provide" the generous welfare and social benefits that Germany, Sweden, and other european nations provide. So, those "migrants" REFUSED to register in Greece, so that they could continue to invade their way north to the country of their choice.

For the exact same reason Canada is sending Haitians back to Haiti who have "fled" the U.S. after their temporary protected status has ended. Canada has no obligation under international law to admit, shelter, or keep Haitians who have resided in the U.S. under a temporary program that has ended. Those Haitians who were under the temporary protected status, by the way, are free to pursue ordinary avenues for residency and citizenship in the U.S. They are most certainly "not" legal international refugees, nor are they valid asylum seekers, simply because the U.S. residency program that admitted them has ended.

None of these people have legal "right" to come to the U.S. simply because they "want" to. Let's be quite clear about that. Being a citizen of a poor country is not a "right" to force a wealthier country to let you come to live there.

The so-called ‘first country of asylum’ principle often justifies the decision to return asylum seekers to another country. It means that a country can reject a person’s asylum application if they have already been granted protection by another country. It is also often referred to as ‘safe third country’ principle. This broader term includes other relationships between an asylum seeker and a third country where they are deemed safe.

What is a safe third country? - World

That said, if some of the caravan do end up at the U.S. border, I think 2 things will happen.

They will be welcomed into medical quarrantine, provided with medical care, and the children (few that there are) will be VERY well cared for-- balloons, toys, etc., while the claims of the adult/s who "brought" them are investigated and pursued. The optics will be excellent.

We may activate and deploy some domestic military resources to the border (we actually do that very often, and it never makes the news-- there are usually lots of "full time reservists" who volunteer for those taskings), but there won't be shooting or tanks or anything that looks like "war".

The caravan participants who depart from the group and and make it thru Mexico to the U.S. border will be greeted and held in quarrantine/ detention WHILE their claims are being pursued, then most will be deported BACK TO MEXICO. Because Mexico has FORMALLY AGREED to take any caravan participants that are deported.

A tiny few of these 4000 may end up in the U.S. under some technicalities or special programs. The overwhelming majority of them will not be allowed to stay in the U.S.

The U.N. and various aid organizations will help mexico to care for whatever number of them end up staying in Mexico.

 

[Fairy1]

Some are asking, why is this caravan "Mexico's problem" to handle?

It is unquestionably Mexico's problem to handle.

It's quite simple, according to international law.

Because Mexico is the "first country of asylum" under the UNHCR (UN High Commission on Refugees) for those claiming the "need" for asylum, AND Mexico is designated as a "safe third country" for refugees seeking a "credible threat" or unsafe conditions in their country of origin.

The caravan citizens of El Salvador and Honduras cannot "skip over" Mexico to claim refugee status or make claims of asylum any where they wish-- ie, the U.S.

Mexico is not a highway. There will be serious, very serious consequences for Mexico if they do not adhere to international law. That is the leverage that both the U.N., and the U.S. bring to bear.

This is the exact same situation that unfolded in Greece in 2015 when the masses of middle east and African citizens decided to "enter" europe via Greece. Few to none of them wanted to remain in Greece, because Greece is poor, has massive financial and economic problems, and would not "provide" the generous welfare and social benefits that Germany, Sweden, and other european nations provide. So, those "migrants" REFUSED to register in Greece, so that they could continue to invade their way north to the country of their choice.

For the exact same reason Canada is sending Haitians back to Haiti who have "fled" the U.S. after their temporary protected status has ended. Canada has no obligation under international law to admit, shelter, or keep Haitians who have resided in the U.S. under a temporary program that has ended. Those Haitians who were under the temporary protected status, by the way, are free to pursue ordinary avenues for residency and citizenship in the U.S. They are most certainly "not" legal international refugees, nor are they valid asylum seekers, simply because the U.S. residency program that admitted them has ended.

None of these people have legal "right" to come to the U.S. simply because they "want" to. Let's be quite clear about that. Being a citizen of a poor country is not a "right" to force a wealthier country to let you come to live there.



What is a safe third country? - World

That said, if some of the caravan do end up at the U.S. border, I think 2 things will happen.

They will be welcomed into medical quarrantine, provided with medical care, and the children (few that there are) will be VERY well cared for-- balloons, toys, etc., while the claims of the adult/s who "brought" them are investigated and pursued. The optics will be excellent.

We may activate and deploy some domestic military resources to the border (we actually do that very often, and it never makes the news-- there are usually lots of "full time reservists" who volunteer for those taskings), but there won't be shooting or tanks or anything that looks like "war".

The caravan participants who depart from the group and and make it thru Mexico to the U.S. border will be greeted and held in quarrantine/ detention WHILE their claims are being pursued, then most will be deported BACK TO MEXICO. Because Mexico has FORMALLY AGREED to take any caravan participants that are deported.

A tiny few of these 4000 may end up in the U.S. under some technicalities or special programs. The overwhelming majority of them will not be allowed to stay in the U.S.

The U.N. and various aid organizations will help mexico to care for whatever number of them end up staying in Mexico.

What a very clinical and tragically inhumane analysis. We should all be reminded, "there but for the grace of God, go I."

 

[mickey2942]

What a very clinical and tragically inhumane analysis. We should all be reminded, "there but for the grace of God, go I."

Laws. We can't allow complete anarchy and mayhem in society.

Otherwise, our country will become much like the country that they are fleeing. And, where will we go?

 

[bluesneakers]

What a very clinical and tragically inhumane analysis. We should all be reminded, "there but for the grace of God, go I."

It's also convenient for the rich country to tell the poor country "It's your problem." Like we can't possibly work together to help people who are desperate for a safer life and better future? I think we can. We have more than enough. What's employment like in Mexico? I know the poverty rate is almost 50%.

Maybe instead of building a new wall and hiring more LE to patrol the borders we should invest in central American countries so people aren't forced to leave their homes and families. JMO

 

[K_Z]

The behavior of this "caravan" is just simply "crowd behavior". Many of these individuals would never have behaved this way on their own, or left their neighborhoods and countries, but they "feel" safe in the big group, and cocooned in the anonymity of a large crowd, where they believe the rules are somehow different. just because they wish it to be so. And so they behave differently.

It's crowd behavior. And we all know crowds can turn on a dime. It doesn't take much for things to change instantly.

Some of these angry or frustrated caravan adults were actually encouraging small children to jump off the bridge between Guatemala and Mexico into an enormous, swift river. Good heavens.

Migrants Vow to Re-Form Caravan, Continue North Toward US

 

[bluesneakers]

They travel in a crowd because it's safer, and because to hire someone to take them is too expensive. It's smart.

The caravan was larger than in previous years (at its peak, there were more than 1,000 members) and the safety-in-numbers strategy worked: Instead of detaining or disappearing the asylum seekers, as Mexican immigration authorities often do to Central American migrants, authorities simply allowed the group to cross into Mexico without resistance.

 

[mickey2942]

What I saw, was an uncontrollable mob of thugs, bent on violence and destruction. The mob stormed the Mexican border, tore down fences, and rampaged through the streets. Violently rioting.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ne...r/news-story/9ca55bdaaa8a2418e087c1d5be714705

There are statements by men in the caravan, that "The economy in Honduras is terrible", "I just want a construction job in the United States", "I want to get a job".

They don't sound like credible asylum seekers, based on the definition of "Asylum". Getting a better job, is not one of the criteria.

 

[IceIce9]

What a very clinical and tragically inhumane analysis. We should all be reminded, "there but for the grace of God, go I."

I ask myself what I would do if I had been born into a country with such unbelievable violence, if my children didn’t have enough food to eat, if I saw children die from simple infections because there was no medicine available, if I had seen innocent family members murdered?

What would I do to save my children?

 

[IceIce9]

It's also convenient for the rich country to tell the poor country "It's your problem." Like we can't possibly work together to help people who are desperate for a safer life and better future? I think we can. We have more than enough. What's employment like in Mexico? I know the poverty rate is almost 50%.

Maybe instead of building a new wall and hiring more LE to patrol the borders we should invest in central American countries so people aren't forced to leave their homes and families. JMO

Do you ever wonder what your life would be like, what your children’s lives would be like, if you weren’t born in this country?

I’ve traveled pretty extensively on mission trips in third world countries and I think about that all the time.

What would we be willing to do to save our children from violence and poverty?

In America poor people have food stamps, cell phones, and subsidized apartments.

In other countries parents watch their children die from lack of food and medicine. Childhood diarrhea or strep throat coukd be a death sentence.

What would you and I do to save our families?

 

[onslow]

So, based on this, what is their claim for asylum? They don't seem to fit the criteria.

You mean they're not Irish.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I ask myself what I would do if I had been born into a country with such unbelievable violence, if my children didn’t have enough food to eat, if I saw children die from simple infections because there was no medicine available, if I had seen innocent family members murdered?

What would I do to save my children?

I understand why people wish to leave their poorer countries and come to the United States.

We simply can't take everyone who wants to come. JMO

 

[kaen]

Another Migrant Caravan Is Making Its Way to The U.S

The Honduran caravan consists of families and children and individuals trying to escape violence and poverty in their home country. For Henry Tejeda, one of those people traveling, he left his wife and children, in order to escape the violence after his mother was murdered and brother was shot.

“I am carrying the documents to prove I’m not lying,” Tejeda said, according to the Associated Press. “I want to seek political asylum (in the United States) and help my family.”

This is the issue for many who are trying to come to the United States. By virtue of luck being born in a country and of a color where I have privilege, I am so grateful that my family and I are not facing these circumstances.

I was in Guatemala 6 years before the end of the civil war. What was happening to people was horrifying over a long period of time. The economy had been shattered especially for the poorest of the poor. And, I watched as darkened windowed police cars would roll up to a restaurant and come in to take people for questioning. In one town, many who were questioned were never seen alive again. I had been on a bus where people would cower and hide as we drove past military installations. I was in the town just after Sister Diana Ortiz was raped and tortured and lowered into a pit with dead bodies done by government forces. The violence is real and unspeakable. The Ladinos were recovering and had access to education but the Mestizos were suffering. And, people who spoke out against state sponsored torture would just disappear. The country had been destabilized by the CIA and other countries before the guerrilla warfare had really begun. The issues across Latin-America are the result of many other countries fighting for and taking power. The poverty is great. The access to medical care and education is spotty at best. Most governments are rife with corruption that is generations in the making. It is not just about jobs or wanting to be in the US. It is wanting a sense of safety-- knowing your children will make it to adulthood without being killed or maimed or raped, knowing that you will not wake-up with people in your home with machetes threatening you, knowing that your child will be able to walk home from school without witnessing unspeakable things.

Investment in these countries is an investment in people staying where they were born. The choice to leave is not a happy-happy-joy-joy moment. It is gut-wrenching and born of terror for many.

 

[mickey2942]

You mean they're not Irish.

And I thought that this was a civil discussion about current events. As usual, it leaves reality, and goes into a completely different direction. Beyond inappropriate and completely unnecessary.

 

[MsFacetious]

I can't really back this up with a link, but I believe I can factually state that these are humans fleeing their corrupt and dangerous home country, where there is no hope for any decent quality of life. Most humans have an innate will to survive and to protect their babies. I just can't fault anyone for that.

It will be politicized, of course. But something will have to give, one way or another. When people are powerless, hungry and afraid for their lives, they will and should take action. IMO.

Yes. It is heartbreaking and makes one feel so helpless to watch.

 

[bluesneakers]

Investment in these countries is an investment in people staying where they were born. The choice to leave is not a happy-happy-joy-joy moment. It is gut-wrenching and born of terror for many.

One hundred percent to all of the above. And thank you for sharing.

 

[mickey2942]

U.S. Foreign Aid by Country

You can input any country and find out how much aid the United States gives to various countries.

I would say that the 287 million we give to Honduras, would pay for a lot of border Security. And the money we give to Mexico, El Salvador, Guatemala, would be a significant amount of funding for the border wall.

 

[IceIce9]

I understand why people wish to leave their poorer countries and come to the United States.

We simply can't take everyone who wants to come. JMO

It isn’t just that they want to leave poorer countries though.

They are desperate to leave one of the most violent countries in the world. In many cases they have seen family members brutally murdered and they are attempting to save their children.

Our local news this morning featured a woman who had fled with a young daughter and tiny granddaughter. The rest of her family had been killed.

Yeah, i’d grab my last remaining child and grandchild and flee too.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

It isn’t just that they want to leave poorer countries though.

They are desperate to leave one of the most violent countries in the world. In many cases they have seen family members brutally murdered and they are attempting to save their children.

Our local news this morning featured a woman who had fled with a young daughter and tiny granddaughter. The rest of her family had been killed.

Yeah, i’d grab my last remaining child and grandchild and flee too.

I'm not sure that is the motivating factor for most of them.

Them shouting that they "want to work" is a big clue in the real motive in my opinion.