CA Cary Stayner

[Noirdame79]

Link, please?

It's mentioned in the first article that I posted.

 

[MrsWatson]

It's mentioned in the first article that I posted.

That's what Stayner told a psychiatrist. Just because he said it, doesn't make it true.
Cary Stayner is a self-confessed murderer. He is not the victim.

 

[rleigh123]

It was the psychiatrist who talked about Cary being a talented cartoonist. The writer in the second article was focusing on the testimony of family members in the penalty phase, and this testimony was about Cary. He was a sad and lonely child; his brother's disappearance affected him greatly, in part because as the oldest child, he felt responsible. It didn't help that his father, by his own admission, mistreated Cary when Steven was missing,
[.....]

JMO

Clipped by me.


IMO

Yes, I know, all of that was in the articles. Like I said, the articles made me feel sick partially because of how it heavily favored Cary and showed Steven in a negative light. Both of the articles were written by the same woman.

Also, as I said, I understand the articles were about Cary and the abuse done to him. But like I said, it went further than that.

IMO

 

[Noirdame79]

Clipped by me.


IMO

Yes, I know, all of that was in the articles. Like I said, the articles made me feel sick partially because of how it heavily favored Cary and showed Steven in a negative light. Both of the articles were written by the same woman.

Also, as I said, I understand the articles were about Cary and the abuse done to him. But like I said, it went further than that.

IMO

As far as I know, this was the closest these parents came to taking any responsibility (which isn't saying much). They are often portrayed as victims, which is annoying. There was an interview they did after the trial where they had clearly gone back to their denial. One of the daughters testified that their father declared that "Steven didn't needed therapy" when he returned. There were some things that the daughters were not allowed to testify to, but it was clear that they all had a horrible upbringing. Now that we know more of what was going on in that family, it explains why Steven so easily accepted it when Kenneth Parnell told him his parents didn't want him anymore. That's how bad his home life. I suspect that there was more to his kidnapping as well. There's too many "coincidences".

 

[Noirdame79]

That's what Stayner told a psychiatrist. Just because he said it, doesn't make it true.
Cary Stayner is a self-confessed murderer. He is not a victim.

That's what Stayner told a psychiatrist. Just because he said it, doesn't make it true.
Cary Stayner is a self-confessed murderer. He is not the victim.

It's not about him being a victim. As I said, there is a reason why there is never any mention of any physical evidence connecting him to the Sund-Pelosso murders, and that's because there isn't any. If he raped Juli Sund, there would have been evidence of that. Joie Armstrong was not raped.

 

[Deleted member 19575]

The parents came off as being selfish and ignorant, refusing to get psychiatric help for their kids and just blowing it off. Steven got messed up then Carey, and the other kids likely suffered. Carey had had problems since way back in childhood.
However, any family involved in a crime like this can be seen as victims because it affects them, but they also contributed to the tragedy, and there are tons of cases where you can see how the family, their parenting choices, etc create a situation that leads to tragedy.

 

[Deleted member 19575]

As far as I know, this was the closest these parents came to taking any responsibility (which isn't saying much). They are often portrayed as victims, which is annoying. There was an interview they did after the trial where they had clearly gone back to their denial. One of the daughters testified that their father declared that "Steven didn't needed therapy" when he returned. There were some things that the daughters were not allowed to testify to, but it was clear that they all had a horrible upbringing. Now that we know more of what was going on in that family, it explains why Steven so easily accepted it when Kenneth Parnell told him his parents didn't want him anymore. That's how bad his home life. I suspect that there was more to his kidnapping as well. There's too many "coincidences".

yeah, they were just infuriating, and I suspected the the same thing about how Parnell managed to convince him of that. No wonder he got married at 17....probably just to get away from them. Meanwhile, his brother was cooking up rape fantasies.
Families like this remind me of the Aunt Diane family, where no one believes the truth staring them in the face. Or those families on "Accident, Suicide or Murder" who'd rather believe their kid was murdered by some imaginary stalker than believe they took an accidental overdose.

 

[Noirdame79]

yeah, they were just infuriating, and I suspected the the same thing about how Parnell managed to convince him of that. No wonder he got married at 17....probably just to get away from them. Meanwhile, his brother was cooking up rape fantasies.
Families like this remind me of the Aunt Diane family, where no one believes the truth staring them in the face. Or those families on "Accident, Suicide or Murder" who'd rather believe their kid was murdered by some imaginary stalker than believe they took an accidental overdose.

Cary's fantasies and/or hallucinations began when he was 7 years old, right around the time that his father began molesting his sisters (according to court testimony) so he very likely witnessed it, and his abuse may have started earlier. This kind of behavior is often normalized in these types of families. Mental illness runs in the family as well. I found it telling that the youngest daughter in the Hulu docuseries (the only sibling interviewed) said that Cary was unwell since he was a toddler. If she knew that, the parents must have known it too. The mother refused to talk about Cary at all (other than mentioning him a few times in passing), and I have a pretty good idea why.

Denial is very high in these types of families, which is one of the reasons why abuse is often generational.

JMO

 

[Kell1]

There is no physical evidence linking him to the Sund-Pelosso murders - no DNA, nothing. That alone should have raised reasonable doubt. There were also major discrepancies in his confession, especially regarding the murder of Juli Sund. You said he has no remorse when in fact he expressed remorse for killing Joie Armstrong. When asked by the FBI if he felt good about killing Joie, he said that he did not. He's also impotent, so he did not rape the victims. All of the psychiatrists who examined him concluded that he is not a psychopath, and he expressed empathy for the victims.

There is far more to this case than has been presented. As for Park Dietz, everything else he said was in favor of the prosecution (whom of course, he always works for). Did all those psychiatrists conspire together to say that Stayner does not lack empathy and is not a psychopath?

Stayner's parents knew he was mentally disturbed from a young age, and did nothing. When it comes right down to it, there is no proof that he committed the Sund-Pelosso murders and he should not have been convicted. A confession alone is not enough. Those are facts.

There is lack of DNA in many cases, the non presence of it does not exonerate a suspect, the fact he did not rape any of them gives you an explanation as to why there would be no DNA that also doesn't man the motive wasn't sexual.

Contrary to popular belief , not all serial killers sexually assault victims, and not every serial killers motive is sexual either, for ex we only had DNA from the BTK cases, because he masturbated at the scenes, Rader never raped any of his victims either, if he had chosen to do so in another location they may have never linked the DNA through his daughter.

I will say again what i was taught decades ago ...A free roaming suspect, a suspect being interrogated and a suspect in court are 3 totally different animals.

If they truly have remorse, for what they've done why not turn themselves in especially if they know they will almost certainly kill again?

Stayner confessed in custody, which isn't really that rare they do somewhat regularly when faced with surmounting evidence against them,that isn't a measure of remorse, sometimes they also do that in an attempt to curtail any other murders they may have been involved, in , but more often its a means to try to cop an insanity plea ...which he tried he also asked for CSM in return for his confession which was most likely an attempt to bolster the insanity claim . To the experienced investigator, you see the constant manipulation , which is part of the psychopathic personality.

As for the psychiatrists ill say this and these are facts also , the sickening number of deviant criminals deemed by psychiatrists to be "no threat to society" , to then later be released and commit some of the most heinous crimes in history should indicate that sometimes (all too often for ANY of these victims families) psychiatrists get it wrong.

If you know anything about inmate psychiatric treatment, its often self reported, and treated accordingly. Dietz took the bait with Kuklinski, Kuklinski admitted himself he manipulated Dietz... It happens .

Behavior reveals personality, that's why they call profilers to try to catch an UNSUB, psychiatry is how to treat disorders and mental illness.

 

[Glowing Chicken]

As far as I know, this was the closest these parents came to taking any responsibility (which isn't saying much). They are often portrayed as victims, which is annoying.

<sbm>

Just for my understanding: the parents of an abducted ~6 year old are annoying for being “portrayed” as victims?

Care to elaborate where the annoyance comes from?

 

[Kell1]

Law enforcement claimed that he raped Juli Sund. Yet there is no evidence that he did. I never said that all serial killers sexually assaulted their victims; I am well aware that some do not.

He was also sexually abused as a child, and part of that abuse was that his uncle showed him CP. It is a common symptom to have a fixation on inappropriate material. Again, it has been determined by seven psychiatrists that he isn't a psychopath and that he expressed empathy for the victims. Even the FBI agent who made the arrest, Jeffrey Rinek, believes that Stayner is not a psychopath and it was unresolved childhood trauma that led him to kill (and I say this as someone who is not a fan of Rinek).

It's interesting that when something doesn't fit the "official narrative," it automatically is assumed that it has to be false, made-up, etc.

I dont know about "made up" , what I do know is that psychiatrists sometimes get it wrong, 7 ok maybe hes not a psychopath , but hes definitely very close, another thing Psychiatrists are almost never called in to create a psychologcal profile, do you know why?

Because psychiatry/psychology take personality and infer behavior(s) outward from what that person may be capable of , it casts a very wide net, and like a net there are gaps in what they diagnose, what profilers do is take behavior and infer personality base on what behavioral evidence they have from that standpoint, this is sometimes referred to as "retro classification"

When you have a killer who kills to fulfill a sexual psychological need , devoid of any psychosis at the time , you are most likely looking at a psychopath.

Their childhood , history abuse, drug use etc though a contributing factor, did not hinder Stayner from trying to evade LE, he confessed in custody, I don't care if he cried, many of them do, especially after being found guilty.

His upbringing was tragic no doubt, and I feel for any child from an abusive home, but at no time was he not in control of his actions , and took measures to evade LE.

They do these things because they like it

 

[Noirdame79]

I dont know about "made up" , what I do know is that psychiatrists sometimes get it wrong, 7 ok maybe hes not a psychopath , but hes definitely very close, another thing Psychiatrists are almost never called in to create a psychologcal profile, do you know why?

Because psychiatry/psychology take personality and infer behavior(s) outward from what that person may be capable of , it casts a very wide net, and like a net there are gaps in what they diagnose, what profilers do is take behavior and infer personality base on what behavioral evidence they have from that standpoint, this is sometimes referred to as "retro classification"

When you have a killer who kills to fulfill a sexual psychological need , devoid of any psychosis at the time , you are most likely looking at a psychopath.

Their childhood , history abuse, drug use etc though a contributing factor, did not hinder Stayner from trying to evade LE, he confessed in custody, I don't care if he cried, many of them do, especially after being found guilty.

His upbringing was tragic no doubt, and I feel for any child from an abusive home, but at no time was he not in control of his actions , and took measures to evade LE.

They do these things because they like it

When did he say that he liked it? Not every situation/crime is the same.

 

[Kell1]

When did he say that he liked it? Not every situation/crime is the same.

Hes not committing hits, hes not killing to silence the voices in his head, hes not killing for any type of gain, ... why is he committing sexually motivated homicides?

Kind of answers itself

 

[Maat99]

Cary's fantasies and/or hallucinations began when he was 7 years old, right around the time that his father began molesting his sisters (according to court testimony) so he very likely witnessed it, and his abuse may have started earlier. This kind of behavior is often normalized in these types of families. Mental illness runs in the family as well. I found it telling that the youngest daughter in the Hulu docuseries (the only sibling interviewed) said that Cary was unwell since he was a toddler. If she knew that, the parents must have known it too. The mother refused to talk about Cary at all (other than mentioning him a few times in passing), and I have a pretty good idea why.

Denial is very high in these types of families, which is one of the reasons why abuse is often generational.

JMO

Wow certainly sounds like the ideal environment needed to create a serial killer. Thanks for laying it out so clearly - it explains a lot.

 

[Maat99]

It's not about him being a victim. As I said, there is a reason why there is never any mention of any physical evidence connecting him to the Sund-Pelosso murders, and that's because there isn't any. If he raped Juli Sund, there would have been evidence of that. Joie Armstrong was not raped.

Wait - are you saying that he purposefully allowed the real rapist and murderer of three women go free and evade justice by falsely confessing? I thought you wrote that he has true empathy for the victims? That does not seem like the actions of an empathetic person and even worse, would put other women at risk of also becoming victims of the murderer he purposefully set free.

Something isn’t adding up with your narrative of this guy as a remorseful empathetic man who just happened to have once beheaded a woman on a particularly bad day.

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

 

[Noirdame79]

Wait - are you saying that he purposefully allowed the real rapist and murderer of three women go free and evade justice by falsely confessing? I thought you wrote that he has true empathy for the victims? That does not seem like the actions of an empathetic person and even worse, would put other women at risk of also becoming victims of the murderer he purposefully set free.

Something isn’t adding up with your narrative of this guy as a remorseful empathetic man who just happened to have once beheaded a woman on a particularly bad day.

<modsnip - quoted post was removed

Morrissey also wants to present a confession by another man once suspected in the triple homicide, but Hastings said he was skeptical.

Morrissey said the confession of Eugene ''Rufus'' Dykes will help show that Stayner's own confession was unbelievable.

Morrissey would not elaborate but said outside court that there are inconsistencies in Stayner's confession.

Dykes, was among a group of methamphetamine users who became the focus of the FBI when the tourists disappeared from Cedar Lodge. He said he falsely implicated himself in hopes of a break on unrelated charges.

Hastings said he'll consider allowing the evidence later in the week.

Stayner's illness called profound

Psychiatrist: Yosemite suspect powerless to fight impulse to kill SAN JOSE -- Cary Stayner's childhood was filled with incest, molestation and the seven-year abduction of his little brother b…

www.recordnet.com

The judge did not allow this evidence to be presented to the jury.

This man (a former Cedar Lodge employee) was one of the original suspects arrested for the crime in March 1999. When Cary Stayner was arrested in late July 1999, these men were still in custody. Once Stayner confessed, LE focused completely on him and lost interest in all of the other suspects, who were ultimately released. Many are of the opinion that LE dropped the ball on this case when they stopped investigating after Stayner's arrest. As shown by this article, the defense did try to present reasonable doubt at the trial, which ended up being blocked by the judge.

People do falsely confess, and it could be that Stayner took responsibility for the Sund-Pelosso murders because he felt guilty about the knowledge that he had, and there is also a possibility that there may have been some coercion or manipulation involved.


From the same article:

Psychiatrist Jose Silva was originally appointed by the court to evaluate Stayner but has become a key defense witness. He stopped short of calling Stayner a psychopath, explaining that he lacks a history of documented behavioral problems, such as run-ins with police, as well as the savvy to hide his crimes as so many psychopaths attempt to do.

A person can commit murder and have remorse and empathy. Mental health can play a role as well.

JMO

 

[MrsWatson]

People do falsely confess, and it could be that Stayner took responsibility for the Sund-Pelosso murders because he felt guilty about the knowledge that he had, and there is also a possibility that there may have been some coercion or manipulation involved.

It could be that he confessed to the Sund-Peolosso murders because he was guilty.

If there was force or coercion used in the confession, why wasn't that brought up during the trial?

 

[Noirdame79]

Initial Yosemite suspect takes fifth in court:

SAN JOSE -- Handcuffed and shackled at the waist, Eugene ''Rufus'' Dykes shuffled into court Wednesday, threw a glare at Cary Stayner and took the witness stand to face questions about his confession in the Sund-Pelosso killings.

www.pressdemocrat.com

 

[Noirdame79]

It could be that he confessed to the Sund-Peolosso murders because he was guilty.

If there was force or coercion used in the confession, why wasn't that brought up during the trial?

Stayner's lawyer questions tactics

SAN JOSE -- A defense lawyer for accused Yosemite killer Cary Stayner questioned Wednesday whether her client was treated properly immediately after he was detained as she tried to suppress the co…

www.recordnet.com

Stayner’s Defense Attorney Questions FBI Agent - myMotherLode.com

The defense attorney for accused Yosemite killer Cary Stayner says Stayner may not have realized he wasn´t under arrest when an FBI agent interrogated him.Defense attorney Marcia Morrissey questions whether FBI agent Jeffrey Rinek used coercive tactics to elicit a confession.Morrissey...

www.mymotherlode.com

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/public-barred-from-testimony-stayner-s-2857431.php

 

[MrsWatson]

Stayner's lawyer questions tactics

SAN JOSE -- A defense lawyer for accused Yosemite killer Cary Stayner questioned Wednesday whether her client was treated properly immediately after he was detained as she tried to suppress the co…

www.recordnet.com

From the article:

According to court records reviewed by The Associated Press and

subsequently sealed, Stayner's attorneys allege his confession wasn't voluntary

and that he was the victim of ''psychological coercion.''

FBI agent Kenneth Hittmeier said

Wednesday that on the day he took Stayner to Yosemite for the walkthrough, Stayner

was advised of his rights three times.

''Early on, when we took him from

the jail, we made it clear to him he was doing it voluntarily,'' Hittmeier said.

Hittmeier also said Stayner appeared

''almost eager to go.''

BBM